le_souriceau

My special speculation today: they busy with something so epicly butthurting (for us to discover), that this is now their main priority, even more important, then some lost cents, community page down for year or lots of other things.
 
Next big news will be utterly shocking.
 
 

Still free tested this morning.

honestly...there's nothing especially unique about Valheim.
 
It is similar to many other games, but that's kind of why it shines -- they created a satisfying experience that is a refined representation of the genre. It might feel similar to games you've played before...because the same concepts that worked for other games work for Valheim. Many concepts feel familiar without feeling repetitive (IMO). 
 
i feel like that's the opposite approach that NQ took with DU -- there's a lot of novelty without purpose in DU.
 
No NPCs or AI in an MMO -- okay, great...you've sold a lot of people on the concept of player-driven everything -- but how will that work, exactly? How do you balance all the game loops lost because "players do everything"? NQ was never able to really answer this question (and a host of other ones) -- sadly, i highly doubt they will ever be able to. 
 
it's like JC looked at the whole of MMO gaming history and thought "I can do much better" without really understanding the dynamics behind the design.
 
Valheim does a fantastic job at cherrypicking the dynamics that work for survival games and creating a cohesively fun experience -- NQ goes the opposite route to be different without really understanding the nature of those differences. 

Voxel tools -- good! 
 
Yet new trees and rocks... questionable.
 
1) New objects not help current "bioms" much, because its mainly question of terrain generation logic, not some mock up trees or ocasional stone. And terrain will stay same very low-grade procedural generated pancake. Also it will have influence only on several "vegetated" planets, while most of them still be totaly featureless (even considering their barren state).
2) Its meaningless in way, that we still can't manipulate terrain artisticly (restore it), only totaly destroy, by digging into dirt. So its stay quite static and usless for more complicated building projects. 
3) Perfomance?

If you say that this is "our group", for me to reference that, I would say "your group". But I guess the intent of that comment (as wel as basic English grammar) went over your head.
 
And on my main character I would not ever want to apply to BOO no, they stand for pretty much everything in game that Blazemonger does not. That said though, I may or may not have an Alt in BOO, just to keep tabs on things, just like I have eyes and ears in other places.. like Discord servers .. 
 
And even when our in-game characters doe not match well, that does not mean we need to defacto disagree or not be able to appreciate and understand another person's perspective here, something you may want to try some time. There is a difference between what happens in game and what happens here. In a personal context it's quite possible I could probably have a beer or two with anyone from BOO, I have no reason to not take that opportunity if it arises. In other cases, I doubt personalities would be very compatible or likable to do the same.
 

Probably old news for some (more informed and omnipresent) people, but was initialy quite a suprise for me...
 
 
Likely all devs discuss each other games in private and sometimes not in most prettiest ways, but public statements like this, while DU on hard spot, felt to me kinda wrong, even sparked some strange patriotic feelings, considering I'm usualy on very harsh critic side myself. Chris Roberts (being totaly not saint in many other regards) showed back then "space nerds solidarity" in critical moment of DU KS, yet for some reason FrozenByte prefering to do somewhat reverse thing.

Maybe to appease some of our grumpy refugees?
 
What do you think?

There are memes that write themselves. But to sum up the situation in one image:

 
I hope NQ takes something away from all the threads that have sprung up here in the meantime.

Probably old news for some (more informed and omnipresent) people, but was initialy quite a suprise for me...
 
 
Likely all devs discuss each other games in private and sometimes not in most prettiest ways, but public statements like this, while DU on hard spot, felt to me kinda wrong, even sparked some strange patriotic feelings, considering I'm usualy on very harsh critic side myself. Chris Roberts (being totaly not saint in many other regards) showed back then "space nerds solidarity" in critical moment of DU KS, yet for some reason FrozenByte prefering to do somewhat reverse thing.

Maybe to appease some of our grumpy refugees?
 
What do you think?

Not to drag this off topic but I think this is what a lot of us, especially kickstarters have started to loose sight of.
 
When I plonked my fifteen freedom bucks down it was like a convergence of everything I wanted that I didn't know I wanted to begin with. Now, years later, I see all these other games that have picked up steam and powered on by while DU seems stuck in dev hell. Sure things are coming out, but I don't feel the same excitement as I did in early pre-alpha. Now we're in that one phase where an update didn't come out for a couple months then before we knew it A1 had arrived and things were rolling.
 
Maybe that's why beta isn't proving nearly as exciting as I thought it'd be. Probably all the bug fixing that's going on, I wonder how much better things are than when beta started. Maybe that's why the end of PA was so long. Stuff like this takes time and while it seems like we're going nowhere, we're only players seeing the surface of what's happening.
 
For now, color me skeptically optimistic.

Pretty much spot on. Knowing the upcoming exploits before they happen by being in or having a good mate in ATV and being around to make sure you use them is a surefire way to getting ahead in this game even more than business entrepreneurship, which is arguably the most useful IRL skill to bring to bear in game.
 
(also, the fact that NQ aren’t actually punishing players who use bugs unless they rub NQ’s nose in the poo is also good to know. )
 
IMO Being an entrepreneur is much more powerful in game than having any real life technical knowledge like electronics or engineering... or, Hell, even aerospace or space engineering!

I strongly disagree. Being good with (newtonian) physics or having played physics based building games just means there is an even longer list of things you have to unlearn in this game. 
Any craft is just a list of parts and their arrangement matters far less than just a few talents for piloting. The skill floor and ceiling for practical building is super low. Knowledge of DU bugs and DU exclusive mechanics is far more important compared to any normal knowledge in normal physics or math.

Math helps when it comes to industry, but what helps even more is a lot of spare time, a second screen for netflix and a mouse macro for digging.

Being good in DU is not a matter of skill, it is more a matter of having no shame when spamming advertisement, reading every comment in the discord to know about upcoming features or current bugs and abuses. Getting some ATV scoop or being online while schematics are sold for 1% is great.

So I strongly disagree with you, science does not make you a good DU player or give you any other advantages. It also does not teach you anything about science, it may actually teach wrong concepts (like engines not creating torque etc).

In extreamly condensed formula civilization development is chain of challenges and rewards.
 
People notice potential in river valleys and, investing crapton of labour, getting huge ammout of food as reward. Then they need better "managment" system -- here we go, writing, new rewards, new prospects open. Nearby city doing some shit -- military progress sparks, etc.
 
In DU context we currently simply have nor serious game mechanical challenges, nor interesting rewards. There is no stimulus to do anything together on really serious scale (beyond some mostly creative projects and interest clubs).
 
So we stuck in much more primitive phase, pre-civilization so to say.

It is not possible to build civilization, Boo or no Boo. Not in this game. This is more of a working concept of mining / building mechanics rather than a game.

Civilization does not just arise because someone wants it to. There need to exist very specific selective pressures for it to happen. Currently none exist.. here's a bigger meditation on the topic:

Civilization is the organization of individuals into social bodies due to selective pressures.

A non-exhaustive list of the characteristics of civilization include: social structure and hierarchy, efficiency, work organization, supply of needs
A non-exhaustive list of the emergent properties of civilization includes: technological innovation, sociopolitical development, cultural development
A non-exhaustive list of selective pressures that create civilization include: resource shortage, non-uniform resource distribution, geography, weather, proximity to neighboring civilizations, war, dangerous environment, dangerous neighbors.
 
Geography - Geography is a huge factor in civilization building, as it affects what type of climate an area has, what type of resources are available, what fauna and flora is is generated in a specific geography. Access to rare resources and constantly in demand resources also needs to be considered. Geography affects what kind of resources a civilization can generate and has heavy influence on its technological advancements as well as culture.
Currently, this does not exist in DU. It does not matter if you start at a base of a mountain or high up on a ridge, makes no difference if you are in the snow or on sand or underwater. Resource Distribution - Resources are not plentiful in the real world and they depend on geography. They are also not uniformly distributed. Certain kinds of resources are only found at specific geographical locations. A heavy concentration of a resource in one area may influence if a civilization can start in an area.
Currently, this does not exist in DU. T1 ore specifically is everywhere, and while different planets have different resources above t1, they are uniformly distributed (in a sense) with no other effects other than mostly uniform randomization.
  Danger - This is perhaps the biggest selective pressure that gives rise to social groups that then become a civilization. Dangers from neighboring tribes will force individuals to make a group for protection. Dangers from wild beast and bad weather will force people into groups in order to survive. This gives rise to iterative development of technology that then allows the group to grow bigger, which allows them to develop more complex social organizations.
Currently, this does not exist in DU. Every planet has a safe zone around it, there are no animals, there is no weather or geographical / regional weather differences that might affect any outcomes. There is zero danger from anything other than yourself. And on and on I can go, there is a lot here. When you want to build a civilization game, one would think you'd start thinking about first principles and go from there... you know... figure out what civilization is and what factors cause it, then try to gamify it in a way that makes sense in an mmo context, given limitations of server tech and current technologies. None of this is happening. Based on the marketing material, it seems like devs/ JC believe that civilization is cities, etc... that's not true at all.. you can build cities now but no one will use them, there's zero reason to.

It is the fault of game design or lack thereof, not the fault of the players.

Totaly agree. It, by all bits and pieces we had, was initial idea -- just drop us on Alioth empty handed near Ark and let build everything from ground up. Clean world, new start, makes sense.
 
Yet, for some reason, NQ made deeply wrong (as for me) bet on some sort of idea, that more "established" world bring them more success with new (and, likely, more mainstream) audience. So they crudly made it "established", while we obviously had all ability to make it so much more organic and interesting way. Its very badly lost opportunity.

True. For me to compare it, it has to be a game and not a tech demo.
 
When I bought Space Engineers back in 2012 or 2013 with great joy, I already wished that I wanted to play something like that with more players. And Starbase does indeed achieve that at first glance. DU needs to get a few things right before I even see it as a competitor. The game can't do more than stroke the mutual ego phallus. Where this Landmark in space game can lead is anyone's guess.

Problem of DU, that even little amount of features game has... kinda inert and not used in actual game mechanics. 
 
1) Pile of elements can perfectly fine work as ship (beyond PvP).
2) PvP = ...
3) Platform with indy machines and boxes -- only base you need.
4) Planets are large, but all the same and empty, so you can slap your platform everywhere.
5) Distances are wast, but generaly only to waste your time.
 
And so on. Generaly only decorative aspect remains. Lua little bit more complex story, but it can't drag game alone.
 

As I am in the Starbase Closed Alpha since mid 2020 and have no NDA and am allowed to show and talk everything:
There is currently only one gas planet and if I am not mistaken 10 moons. The closest being around 20'000km (55 hours at 100 m/s , 37 hours at 150m/s) from the asteroid belt. The largest moon is thought to be 1000km in diameter. Planned features: player built stations (on moon and space, space is already in the making), mining lunar rocks. More to come with time, I guess.
 
You won't be able to have a voxel-like comparison with DU because Starbase has no voxels. Think of it more like a kit that follows the principle of Space Engineers and Empyrion, but has a comparably great complexity of DU. I think everyone has to decide for themselves what they find more beautiful. I think both approaches are good. 
 
The other things, however, sound more exciting to me:
- Modifiable engines that you have to cool? It's in.
- Modifiable command seats with buttons, displays, server racks, a programming language and saving code on elements and giving it to other players? Yes, it's there.
- Modifiable weapon attachments for the mounted weapons on the ships? Yep.
- Cable and pipe management for power and fuel? Sure, you'll need to build a redundant system inside the ship.
- Glass elements? Mhm, yep.
- AvA, CvC, raiding ships? Yes!
- Can I place mining lasers on the ship? Yessss!
- Can I carry the asteroids with my ship to a safe zone and mine them there in peace? YES!
- Ship designer? Yep.
 
 

DU needs to take the first step and become a game before you can talk about taking ideas from other games, as is, DU has nothing game loop wise, its all just an attempt at simulation. NQ just wants to sit back and let their community do all the work for content creation because for some reason or the other, be it incompetence or lack of funding, they are unable to to create meaningful features for the project that could turn it into a game to retain players.

This! There is no purpose to play and make pretty things apart from to make more pretty things! That’s literally all the game has atm.

Not only that, but NQ assure us that our current profit, profit gained with a very unbalanced game, will stay with us after release. 
 
But increasing pvp will only make the unbalance deeper. Making the situation on release even more unbalanced and making the exodus of players faster. 

Main issue here is population effect.
 
0.23 (beyond good/bad ecomonical side long run -- another topic) devastated already humble game population by alienating huge chunk of solo/small group/more casual players. Things can be said here like "game not for them", ok, they left, but i'm not seeing millions of "right kind of" players who come to enjoy new economy.
 
Clumsy knocking out of warp safety (without reasonable compesating systems/mechanics) -- just to "feed" impatient PvPers, will end up with similar (or even worse) exodus, something game barely can afford.
 
This said, I agree, that game desperatly needs more meaningful conflict, but preferably must be some sort of relativly "combatant vs combatant objectives" thing.
 
(And don't give me "but they can hire escorts" BS, its not how its working).

Main issue here is population effect.
 
0.23 (beyond good/bad ecomonical side long run -- another topic) devastated already humble game population by alienating huge chunk of solo/small group/more casual players. Things can be said here like "game not for them", ok, they left, but i'm not seeing millions of "right kind of" players who come to enjoy new economy.
 
Clumsy knocking out of warp safety (without reasonable compesating systems/mechanics) -- just to "feed" impatient PvPers, will end up with similar (or even worse) exodus, something game barely can afford.
 
This said, I agree, that game desperatly needs more meaningful conflict, but preferably must be some sort of relativly "combatant vs combatant objectives" thing.
 
(And don't give me "but they can hire escorts" BS, its not how its working).

Main issue here is population effect.
 
0.23 (beyond good/bad ecomonical side long run -- another topic) devastated already humble game population by alienating huge chunk of solo/small group/more casual players. Things can be said here like "game not for them", ok, they left, but i'm not seeing millions of "right kind of" players who come to enjoy new economy.
 
Clumsy knocking out of warp safety (without reasonable compesating systems/mechanics) -- just to "feed" impatient PvPers, will end up with similar (or even worse) exodus, something game barely can afford.
 
This said, I agree, that game desperatly needs more meaningful conflict, but preferably must be some sort of relativly "combatant vs combatant objectives" thing.
 
(And don't give me "but they can hire escorts" BS, its not how its working).

Something like that. I stuggle to formulate this in english (with my level of language), but I think JC kinda agressivly dreams to make "serious" game of some "scientific simulation of civilization" narrative, but in meanwhile arrogantly butchering actual "gaming", "fun" component of loops and systems, that makes games... games. 

So we constantly ending up with half-assed "simulator" that takes too long and give too little (for majority), then enjoyable mmo we promised initialy in pink glasses phase.
 
Slow development just not helps in any case, only makes any problems more noticeble and painful.
 
Yet I bit disagree on "conspiracy" of old big orgs or something. Probably at some point NQ little bit overflirted (so to say) with "landmark" part of community, but even this likely in past at this point of trajectory. Most large orgs totaly disfunctional or practicly disbanded (because of less and less members interested). So they fell victims as anyone else, solo or small group.