NoRezervationz

I really dislike what 0.23 did to new players most of all.
 
Nobody will really tell you straight up when you join the game that it will take 10,000 hours of straight up mining to finally be in a position of self sufficiency to actuall even start to experience this game 6-12 months into their start to have a fleet of ships for different purposes, an industry, min/max spec talents with other players, a base or two and being able to finally stand up before you consider the losses from pvp, inefficient machines, dings and smashes to destructible parts, ultra saturated markets, and generally being largely able to not do what you want in game or to have a full functional experience on top of it.
 
If you are a new player you have a mountainous grind to the top of everest when you consider a new player cant reliably do anything in game and forget choosing something fun you want to do, you are expected to mine probably 100 hours to just get a ship going that is even worth going mining for in the first place along with the crashes / destructive elements and general lack of talents. They cant go industry which is now under lock and key and beyond the hands of a new player who might be able to buy some of the basics but will be required to either jump to a higher tier but cant mine the stuff so its pretty pointless. Or that their nano crafter is so inefficient that they might as well be deleting the ore since its at like a 40% loss to everything off the bat just to throw the rest away in repairs. And they also cant go piloting first unless they dont want to be able to mine to get the ore to get the ship to get the ore to crash the ship to fix the ship to mine more ore. Its a hell of a daunting thing to ask people in a game with no respawnable resources and expecting people to mine for like 5-10hrs a day to do just basic things. And the devs keep piling on the hits as time goes on directly intentionally or unintentionally at new players who are stuck in the crossfire each time they punish from the bottom up rather than actually creating a balance by punishing at the top and not necessarily at the top down.
 
For instance rather then knee capping 75% of the people from using their industry when schematics went in they could have let everyone still be able to be sufficient enough to still use the basic recipie but if you wanted something more then you could opt in for the advanced, rare, extended rediculous version and buy a schematic. That would have been fair to the people who invest who knows how much before JC decides to put a lock on it for no real reason and then throwing a wrench in the market so that he can throw a bone to the mega orgs who bought up all the schematics, had all the power, credits, and ability to shrug it off with minimal losses while everyone else got shut down.
 
When they could have not just put some arbitrary content gate and money sink after mega orgs have been pilaging this game in EZ mode upto this point and have massive quantities of parts, ore, territories they got at 100k and cleaned up which now also costs everyone else like 2mil now. They could have just made it so the more land you claim the more expensive it gets to allow mega orgs to expend but at an escalting rate so new players or anyone else could own land but no it neither stops mega orgs who have lots of credits to continue buying up all the juice nodes but it does further prevent anyone else from ever catching up with the mass imbalance they have been allowed to reap and use to their fullest extent up to this point in mining, pvp, and the markets.
 
They could have just thought about this issue for like 5 additional seconds and though hey we have no idea why our market system is broken and terrible and rather than throwing wrenches into things and breaking the game more in favor of JCs precious mega orgs and destroying the rest of the game for anyone else maybe we should prevent people from being able to put so much stuff up on the market. Or that if you only cater to the mega orgs then they will no doubt hyper saturate the market in which case the only way the maket goes from here on out is down into the ground. If your precious buy sell bots didnt manipulate the market in the way it does it would be like 1H for everything right now.
 
When in addition to just letting people keep their T1 industry and upgrade when they wanted and left it alone so anyone could at least maintain their fleets. The real issue is the way the markets are run. All the people who played during pre-0.23 EZ mode have such a collective hoard of items/mats/etc that the market at this point will never fully recover and when the mining bots go in we will have such an influx of mats into the system that will no doubt make some kind of chainmail interlocking grief loops to account for. When from the start they only needed to limit how much you can reliably put up into the market in one weeks time. Supply and demand is a real thing and in DU we cant get the machines running fast enough to keep up with how much crap is put up into the market.
 
There honestly needs to be a liscense system that prevenst people per week from shoveling unlimited quantities of items endlessly into the market. Either the taxes need to be adjusted by the volume or storage space you use in that market. Or there needs to be an additional fee or tax for the priveledge to use the market in the first place to huck those massive quantities into per each individual market. Each week if you intend to sell more than a certain amount of free trade volume limit per day if you want to sell more then that there should be a talent to raise the minimum, but if you want to sell more then that then you need to buy a liscense that renews per week and not per day like the personal free volume. Each wee you need to bet how much you think you can reliably sell. If you dont use all the volume you waste money, dont have enough space you lose money, and it should be about strategically selling items per week when other peoples limits run out or to find the actual sweet spot that you can afford to reliably scale to pay for the scaling liscense volume that has options of 1 week - 1 month to further entice people to lock rates and build up stock rather then the markets we have now.
 
Those two solutions would have been much better then the way schematics are being handled as a content gate & money sink so you can mine more for no reason. Eventually if they box everything out of a new players hands this game is dead before launch.

I should start off by saying, this is specifically for the devs & NQ. I'm not trolling anyone on the thread, nor demeaning anyone else.
 
I have tried defending most of the updates, even ones I didn't personally like, because the game is in beta, and there is still soooo much to do before it's released. But the schematic thing is complete bullshit. "That's not how the game is suppose to be played" is a cop-out answer. At least have the common decency to tell the truth and say "we don't care what ppl want, we already got your money, we want this so this is what we're doing...deal with it or f*ck off. We don't care either way."
 
The biggest draw to this game was I could build anything I wanted. I could do anything I wanted. As long as I could imagine it, and I put in the work to get it, I could accomplish it. With or without a group to play with. There were obvious, and large, advantages to playing with a group, but it wasn't necessary to enjoy the game, or to accomplish things. But this latest change, this is the last kick in the juju bees I'm willing to take without voicing my displeasure. And there is no defense for this. There was nothing in the fund raising that said anything about this game being another version of Eve. If I wanted to play Eve, I'd renew my sub and go play. This had sooo much more potential. Me and my group of friends played for 2 yrs, and we still hadn't got a lot of things that we wanted, and hadn't done a lot of things we wanted to do simply because of the time involved in going out to get the materials, refining, skills, etc.....,we do after all have some semblance of a life. But we were still having fun. We were a small group, less than 1/2 a dozen, that played well together, were able to coordinate and accomplish a lot. We could keep relative pace even with the larger orgs. But with this, there's absolutely no point in even logging on. We can't do anything. Go mine, sell it to bots to purchase schems so we can go mine so we can refine so we can sell, so we can mine, so we can refine, then build. Gee...that sounds like FUN! The point is to get together, work for a common goal, ie build a specific ship, building, etc..., and enjoy doing it because we could see progress and the results of our time and effort. Now it's just a grind fest.
 
I understand wanting people to work together. i get it...MMorpg does start with multi-player. However, there are much better ways to encourage it than this abomination. The players seemed to be pretty involved and working together well before this non-sense. The dev's want to slow things down? News flash, it taking months upon months of mining, crafting, planning, and working to complete ONE build is plenty 'long' enough. I even encourage the intricate crafting system. I love that part. The better you are, the more resilient, the more of a product, the less materials consumed or the better a product should turn out. So I don't even have issues with that. But again, making me buy a schem to be able to make it is inane.
 
You don't like the pace at which large orgs were progressing, then do something that would limit them. Not the community as a whole. People will always figure out a way around your idiotic, artificial time sinks. They have hundreds of players to harvest $ from so they can purchase w/e you have set up to try and 'slow' down progress. You still haven't slowed down anything, all you've done is make it impossible for smaller orgs, or small groups of players playing together to be able to do anything except mine. So effectively you've turned all of us into mining slaves for the large orgs. Nice job.
 
If you had put this crap in your fund-raising efforts, instead of the promise to be able to build anything we can imagine, I would never have put out the money to support the game. But since I did, I get to bitch about it on the forums. For all the good it will do.

I'll never understand why some people are so intent on prescribing how other peoples playstyles should be. It just so happens some people enjoy the challenge of trying to do it all. You want to limit yourself to the boring task of producing one item be my guest. I buy multiple accounts just so I can "do it all" ...now it seems that playstyle is not in the vision so my multiple accounts have been unsubbed. What folks don't realize is that solo players are actually the majority of paying customers is these games, not because of the number of individual solo players but because we usually have multiple accounts. (it's hard to be self sufficient with one character)
 
What should have been done would have been to offer the basic schems needed to get a start in the game for free. Then as items produced get more complex they could start charging for them, with the more common ones being dirt cheap and the most rare being the most expensive and difficult to acquire.
 
We also should not need a schematic for each machine. This could have been handled by uploading them to database's of varying sizes that could then be linked to a series of industries. Small factories would only need the smaller, relatively inexpensive db's, while the mega-factories would need many much larger, much more expensive db's to operate. 
 
I understand why they did it this way ...IMO they tripped over themselves in the process. The upcoming need for power generation will accomplish their goal. The current implementation of schematics has come in as more of a wall than the curb they intended.
 
Schematics are good and should stay as they add a level of complexity. But implement them so as to add to the fun, not impede it.

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I'm doing the same thing and just logging in to collect my daily. I've grounded my bigger ships and use my pocket rocket if I get an idea and need something, but it hasn't happened in weeks.
 
.23 sucked all the fun out of the game. Everything I was interested in, gone.

You're nuts if you think pre-.23 was that easy. I spent weeks building and buying the little industry that I had, just to make a few parts I deemed too expensive on the market. Then .23 came along and killed it all, and the fun that went with it.
 
This patch did nothing but pander to the large orgs and cause a large percentage of the player base to leave.

You're nuts if you think pre-.23 was that easy. I spent weeks building and buying the little industry that I had, just to make a few parts I deemed too expensive on the market. Then .23 came along and killed it all, and the fun that went with it.
 
This patch did nothing but pander to the large orgs and cause a large percentage of the player base to leave.

Yep, NQ used outright false advertising on several ocasions (with different % of BS), its true. Reason is, that game is in raw Alpha state currently (not Beta, its joke), so they obviously uncomfortable to show things how they are in reality. This why all this trickery.

You're nuts if you think pre-.23 was that easy. I spent weeks building and buying the little industry that I had, just to make a few parts I deemed too expensive on the market. Then .23 came along and killed it all, and the fun that went with it.
 
This patch did nothing but pander to the large orgs and cause a large percentage of the player base to leave.

Welcome to DU, now get in the mines! lol! j/k.... mostly...
 
I'd say make all T1 through XL be freed from schematics. There is no real reason for T1 schematics other than making the game noob-hostile and org-centric.
 
I don't think they really thought the schematics system through before implementing them, especially the impact on early gameplay. The term "schematic" isn't even correct. When you modify a machine or assembly line IRL to make a different thing, it's called "retooling." So, perhaps "Tool Set" would be a better term than schematic, but the idea is still crap.
 
NQ, more specifically JC, honestly knows nothing of actual manufacturing and is making a lot of assumptions that just aren't correct, and trying to incorporate any sort of artificial limitations to emulate the real-world is just going to piss people off enough to quit.

I'm doing the same thing and just logging in to collect my daily. I've grounded my bigger ships and use my pocket rocket if I get an idea and need something, but it hasn't happened in weeks.
 
.23 sucked all the fun out of the game. Everything I was interested in, gone.

I was totally in love with this game pre #23...I even went out a bought a beast PC when I started in Oct, just to play it. I was sucked in by the marketing, and even though it was pitched as a Beta, the impression promoted by NQ is that its waaaaaaay more developed than it is.
Even though it was a bit repetitive, you could usually achieve something in the game, even in just small steps: you always felt like you were moving forward.  Now the tiny pay-offs for huge amounts of tedium, mixed with the brutal damage to cores and element repair,  simply dont feel worth the investment of time. It is basically dull, frustrating and tedious.
I have REALLY tried since the patch to find something in it, and be positive; so I ventured off Alioth to get some decent ore. Upon my return, a glitch caused there to be no altitude/distance data and suddenly I was in the atmosphere, far too fast. Burned up and respawned on the other side of the planet. Now its drudgery-tastic picking up what i need to repair and getting back to sell some t5 that took a day to get out of the ground.  But then do what? rinse & repeat...  the game is 'all fur coat and no knickers' -  theres no substance behind it. No content.
 
I am now logging in daily just to colled my $ and hoping that something will change soon, because right now it is dulll A.F. and all my interest in it has seriously evaporated.
 

https://du-creators.org/makers/Shulace
 
Those are my ships.
 
You can enjoy the game all you want, the problem is everyone that enjoyed the game pre 0.23 was having fun too with the game they paid for. That is until the folks like you starting complaining because you don't like seeing other people doing their own thing.
 
I have given up on DU like most, I just chime in for some extra entertainment every so often lol, gotta get my subs worth in.

Uh huh... go on.... you finished half way through your comment. The bit where you were explaining these many ways to make ℏ besides mining. 

Wait? Huh? Not sure who you guys are but this doesnt make much sense. DU also is not a survival game. My goto game is a survival game and it actually has survival elements. I for one do not want DU to become a survival game, there are way better ones that DU will never surpass. 
 
I also dont agree that everyone should NOT be able to build anything they want. You should be able to make everything however, doing that takes time, RL time that is scarce and I simply could not devote the time needed to do everything so that is why I go to the markets. Plus I'd rather buy at a discount then make everything but the issue is allowing something doesnt mean that everyone will choose that course.
 
Real life example - I CAN sail around the world however it takes to long so I'd rather fly. The creators allowed me to sail but instead of making me fly, they let me decide and since my time is scarce, I choose what they were going for anyway but I still have options and can sail and or fly when I want to. See the difference now?

Yeah its just plain boring now.  I tried to login and play the other day and spent hours trying to find recipes since it's such a PAIN to search for them.  I can't believe how rudimentary the search features are in this game.  Three hours later and four marketplace trips that still are so laggy it makes the game crash every time and  I realize I have to go to another planet for three of the schematics.  So that means I now have to build up my skills again.   Nope.  I don't want to spend another hour or two clicking those damn skills buttons and trying to drag them into order with the most un-user-friendly ordering feature I have ever seen. 
 
So that's like four hours of game play and nothing, whatsoever, fun about any of it.   I can't even bring myself to spend 30 minutes logging in and crashing several times just to claim my daily money.  This game might sound good on paper, but its just not fun at all for me anymore.  Most of my org has quit playing too. Everyone playing different games now.   I dont know if NQ can fix it, so idk if I'll play again.  Have to wait and see if any of their new features add a little more fun, or if its just more sitting inside a menu and clicking stuff or not. 

Welcome to DU, now get in the mines! lol! j/k.... mostly...
 
I'd say make all T1 through XL be freed from schematics. There is no real reason for T1 schematics other than making the game noob-hostile and org-centric.
 
I don't think they really thought the schematics system through before implementing them, especially the impact on early gameplay. The term "schematic" isn't even correct. When you modify a machine or assembly line IRL to make a different thing, it's called "retooling." So, perhaps "Tool Set" would be a better term than schematic, but the idea is still crap.
 
NQ, more specifically JC, honestly knows nothing of actual manufacturing and is making a lot of assumptions that just aren't correct, and trying to incorporate any sort of artificial limitations to emulate the real-world is just going to piss people off enough to quit.

Lol I tried to offer to come scoop them, hook them up with a ship/base, rations, etc to help get them past some of the hurdles but even stil they chose not to play the game. They arent the first new player either that I offered that deal to but they are so turned off by the tutorial and the start that most give up before they even get going and I almost quit before I got rolling too. Im sure many other new players dont even take the time to even voice their concerns before they quit.
 
New players need some starting faction to pull together organizations and to have a fully functional ship, base, ration generations of gas/scrap and the ability to at least try out all the roles before going into one of the 3-4 main roles within the game. Without being able to try any of the industry right up front or allowing for some self sufficiency is a bad president to set even if they want to force conformed micro compartmentalized roles. It just simply does not work that way nor the type of playstles or play time people typically have on any given day being on the average of 1-4 hours for most people. Not being able to do anything beyond 1 role especially for our industry guy who has nothing to do since he cant fly, cant mine, cant run the machine, or pretty much play the game right now beyond moral support is rediculous for both new, current, or vet players.
 
There is no real higher function or purpose to most of the game as it currently is beyond mass producing and saturation of the market just to do it since nobody really wants to pvp and most features are being nerfed and somehow that is supposed to be a good thing when there should be more freedom, more renewable resources, more production, and JC just might get his epic single spacewar battle otherwise its JC handing large orgs everything while everyone else might see the content before JC again nerfs everything in the game so a handful of orgs can have fun while everyone else is being strangled by red tape and bone headed decisions. The vision is killing this game.
 
It will never be Eve, Star Citizen or any of the already niche market games they listed. Its a fact that they do it better and they make more money. a mine craft clone with space elements and EQN landmark building in a limited single solar system game is not my idea of shooting for the stars as it were and failing pretty hard in all aspects.
 
I was joking with my mining buddy that if this were told from the perspective of a story or movie it would have played out like:
 
Remember that time in EP4 of Star Wars when Obi Wan, Luke, Han, and Chewie were going to leave Mos Esiley pinned down by storm troopers who are growing by the minuite but they couldnt leave because the Millennium Falcon needed 12 L stabilizers to get it off the ground  but they spend the rest of the moving trying to position the stabilizers because they needed a bunch of space and couldnt find enough space to fit more than 4 so they finally got arrested by the Empire 1hr 42mins into the movie?
 
Yeah me either...
 
Anyone remember that time in Star Trek when the Klingons fired 6 torpedoes at the Starship Enterprise and it blew up instantly because there was no defense systems developed and they just flat out stole the ship and the show became some wierd spinoff with some bazaro cast of space pirate klingons griefing the universe?
 
Yeah me either...
 
Anyone remember that time in SG1 when the team got pinned down by the replicators and they thought they were gonners until some random patch updated their software and they lacked the schematic to kill humans and hard to go to the market and got scalped since all the market bots bought up the schematics and fleeced the replicators for 3x the price and instead they had to go mining for weeks on end and by the time they went to kill the SG1 team they were long gone?
 
Yeah me either...
 
Anyone remember that time in the Matrix when Trinity wanted to fly the helicopter after saving Morpheus and she went to download the Piloting Talents and her que said that at 90 exp per min it would take her 171 days to be able to fully fly the helicopter and they all died one by one surrounded stuck on the roof by agents and military until the credits rolled?
 
Yeah me neither...
 
It wouldnt be funny if it wasnt how this game plays normally. There is so much red tape and limitations that you cant have heroic moments or cool experiences in this game because the Dystopic Vision demands punishment and gind and monotony their dominatrix would be proud of. Rather then allowing people enough resources as a single or small org crew to even start to fight or do anything since the only real playstyle that matters is PvP or at least the first strike ambush gank pvp playstyle. You can at least cut through 90% of the red tape just by siezing ships then the headache it is to mine, process, craft, and sell items at a loss since most PvP players siezing items dont care how much they post it for and crafters are hurting for money and undercutting themselves just to try and break even before the inflation really hits before they turn around and add mining bots to then oversaturate and undo what they attempted to do. All without any real purpose or function or the ability to make our own markets or give reason to the only thing we can do really is to mine, make items, then gank more items. Its not a very solid gameplay loop.

As a new Player:
 
Get rid of Blueprints for all Tier 1 and everything you can build in Assemly Line M and lower.
Give the new Players some aire and possibilities.
I would not mind buying Blueprints for advanced Stuff.
Right now it is even hard for me to go to the next Market.
And all i see is "You need the Blueprint".
So i cant experiment.
I want to build a smal ship as i statet in another Post. But how?
The Tutorial wont work. I have no clue what i need.
And for everything i need to travel to the market.
What if i forget 1 wing or 1 brake is not enough?
Waste another 15 min for travelling to the Market?
 
 
And to those who are saying "You can build a better Ship with what you have", plz consider, that new Players dont know how and cant try stuff out, because we cant build stuff!

Just to realize that you can't make profit with this product because some idiots started selling it below production costs? That was not a problem before the patch because it was easy to switch to another product. With the required investment for schematas I can't recommend industry as buisiness model for new players anymore. The only reliable entry buisiness is mining. Industry is just for fun at that level and a production line for a single product isn't fun.

The only way DU will get cool is if NQ lets it. If they keep letting their "vision" and "intended use" crap get in the way, while moving the goalpost further and further, it won't even survive this Alpha Beta.

That's just the thing though.  I didn't support this game to become "game rich".  I joined to make friends, build, craft and work towards a common goal with my org mates.  But now this game is nothing BUT about making tons and tons of money even before you get to do anything else at all.  I already have a real job, thank you very much.  I don't need a game job too.

Like a previous poster, I suffered through all the grind we had before. I did end up building some cool things since pre-alpha.  But now I am told that's not how we play this game.  Instead, I am to choose one or two parts, spend millions of quanta to make them and hope that I don't choose something that gets saturated in the market.  And sell, sell, sell.  Or mine, mine, mine and then sell, sell, sell.  THEN maybe I can build something or fix something.  Meh.

I also did not sign up for Eve Online here.  I signed up for a sandbox where I could build anything I wanted.  That promise has been revoked.  No way in hell my small group of guys will be able to build what we have planned on now.  All we can do is try to make money just to keep the ships flying and the market making money for the rich guys.  I have not logged in for two weeks now.  I have cancelled all DU notifications.  I may or my not come back depending on how the next few updates are handled. 

If you guys wanna play "space billionaire," feel free and have fun.  That's not what I signed up for.
 

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The only way DU will get cool is if NQ lets it. If they keep letting their "vision" and "intended use" crap get in the way, while moving the goalpost further and further, it won't even survive this Alpha Beta.

The only way DU will get cool is if NQ lets it. If they keep letting their "vision" and "intended use" crap get in the way, while moving the goalpost further and further, it won't even survive this Alpha Beta.