Kleckius

I have been thinking a lot about this in the past days. I guess many of us have. This is the last I'll say about it.
 
Some approach a no-wipe by giving arguments, some by ultimatums, some by expressing how they feel, some disappear in silence, some undergo it, and some approach it by bargaining: your wipe is ok if you leave me with this; thinking to compromise.
 
The pro-wipe people on the other hand have yet to present to me a convincing argument. Everyone agrees that a wipe will resolve symptoms, for some time, but, in the end, that it wouldn't resolve the underlying issues. Thus, history will repeat itself (mark this). NQ could still make mistakes (e.g., radar in PTS just recently) affecting us, and that can't be prevented, it is the nature of development. People will still exploit these mistakes, it is the nature of people, and should be punished for it if they could have known better.
 
Hence, I need to conclude that the only real reasons for a wipe, from the player-base's perspective, are competitiveness, seeing the world burn, not caring, trolling, ignorance, aside from technical reasons that are parroted, of which I have said before: any good technical reason would result in a statement from NQ that there would be a wipe and to what extent. And that is not what we got.
 
Nevertheless, I get NQ's point of view .. it is about minimizing collateral (us) on the prospect of new players at launch, but also old players that gave up somewhere along the way, most notably around 0.23. They might be convinced of the need to promise a leveled playing field at launch, given the state of the game today, while not angering its community too much not to lose those that actually play the game, and organize fun in it.
 
Some propose a poll in here ... I think the poll is being executed by this post of NQ (like they did through previous ambiguous announcements). Else, if that wasn't its purpose, I don't get it. Not only has it sowed discord, it has created distrust, is ineffective, is giving people time to reconsider things and move on, killed the incentive to play the game, and what not. Whatever NQ's ultimate decision would be, this post has done much more harm than it could have done good. That's why I said in #duscussion that NQ is probably watching the channel with a big bowl of popcorn, as all of this is either incredibly shortsighted or intentional, and how can it not be intentional?
 
But, NQ: IF you had just laid out your concerns, instead, and the fact that you don't have a good solution, without any hint as to what you would/could decide or implement it. That would have been constructive as it would help people see your point of view, and you would have gotten a response much less driven by emotion (or have casted people in emotional roller-coasters). This could have helped you see what your community thinks about it (who have all been new players at some point), rather than making them angry at you and each other. Furthermore, timing ... you are running a PTS for an update, in the Easter period. Why not wait until after for such an announcement, so you could actually provide clarity in due time, instead of letting us hang.
 
By now, there have been many logical arguments against a wipe (aside the list of promises made or hinted at by NQ) to be found in this thread (ranging from technological reasons to commercial implications). There is no point in repeating all of them.
 
I think the most notable one is that there will remain a need for a continuously leveled playing field in the future, not solved by a wipe. Thus, a wipe without the required changes for equalizing things doesn't make sense, and when these changes are in place they invalidate the need for a wipe. This is pure logic. However, people don't always follow logic, and thus even under these changes NQ might need to convince new players with the prospect of a fresh start. What can I say, they run a business.
 
But, NQ, note that for this equalizing, in society, we have tax systems, like a non-linear tax on capital and income. If in DU linked to the daily income system, this would effectively level the playing field. This leveled playing field is also why in society we guide our economy's inflation, to give active people an advantage over non-actives, to give newer players an advantage over older ones, to devaluate capital that goes unused. And thus, to renew the economy continuously. Add to that degradation of property and maintenance (by reducing your HP counters over time), and what you get is a real economy that can be tuned through taxes and minimum/maximum prices. Recall that with such an approach you wouldn't have needed construct slots either (as I said then). However, by the time people can propose solutions, you have already implemented/developed your solution, which you introduce, and which then can only be weakened or strengthened, based on the community's response. But from which you can no longer pivot.
 
Note that NQ's approach in this announcement is similar to before (and after some examples of the kind can only be concluded to be intentional too), with construct slots the most recent example. They make a statement which is infuriating to some and then revert it back a bit so that people feel acknowledged, reaching an end-point which would not have been accepted otherwise. It is NQ's one-sided bargaining with the community. Or rather (emotionally) manipulating the community. And that's abusive to those that don't see the manipulation, and insulting to those that can.
 
At the very least by it, we feel agitated, deceived, manipulated, stopped playing, or quit the game to convince you, NQ, that you shouldn't take us for granted and treat us like this. People that have been with you for a long long time, have promoted you, and have walked the path you have taken us through highs and lows. People that are mostly silent. People that understand compromise, that things change, and above all that want this game to grow. People that only ask for openness, clarity, and a bit of respect for their time and money.
 
I know, none of us individually matter. Whatever I do as a consequence of whatever decision NQ takes, it won't be felt nor by NQ nor the community. So, I'm not gonna give an ultimatum, nor be angry, or try a tactic to have you don't wipe. I will not try to move the public opinion in any way. I think I'm in a state that is much worse .. I don't care anymore. My relation with you NQ has changed, and it won't be fixed easily. I don't trust you anymore. You had once this resolution that you would stick your ground, that you would live your vision, which made me feel safe to invest my limited time in, for which I would have compromised a lot. But Yama said it: this has turned into an abusive relationship; and the best thing you can do in that case is cut your losses and live with the hurt. TBH, NQ, you have just turned from the company I am a customer of (and do business with), into my dealer: I have a hard time trusting you, but you sell me something I like too much to give up on yet.
 
To NQ. Thank you. I'm grateful although it might not have sounded that way. The visionaries, the developers, and community managers alike. I'm convinced you want the best too. So, let's see what you do.

To NQ. I challenge you (if you dare) along with the entire community to solve The Metacomplex (vr) puzzle.
No one ever has, I think no one can (without cheating), and when wiped, likely no one ever will.
 

EDIT: 
Message removed for advertising another game in a thread dedicated to feedback on Dual Universe. 

@yamamushi We can understand you're upset about changes in the development of Dual Universe and we're thankful for all the involvement you had in the Dual Universe community during several years. If at some point you want to come back on the game, you will be welcomed. However, all this doesn't give you the right to have such behavior on the forum.
 
Best Regards,
NQ-Nyzaltar
 

I bet iof they totaly wipe they wipe the hole cluster
and there is no arguument to wipe planets at all, or even skills talents and so on....
 
its litterly breaking the promis from beta begin that ther will be no tottaly wipe 

If the game released today I would not sub. A wipe is needed to fix fundamental flaws in the game.  But that’s going to kill of what little community the game still has. And the committed players are often limping on the sunk cost fallacy.
 
The game still does not have any good gameplay loops to actually attract players.  And it needs to be able to attract players before even considering a reset.
 
The game still needs solid development to entice new players to join.
 
The best gameplay loop at the moment in my opinion is mining.  Which is amazing considering there is very little content there. 
 
The building is ok but there are serious restrictions on players now given volume and construct constraints.
 
PvP basically has no incentives.
 
Trading is insignificant and not impactful.
 
Missions are hour(s) long snooze fests except for player-created missions.
 
For the game to be successful.  Each area of the game should be enticing enough for a person to want to try the game.  And then serious consideration could actually be given to a reset

 
 

If you do any type of wipe that removes quanta, talent points, or BPs - then you are guaranteed to lose a whole bunch of the people who supported and helped get this project off of the ground. That is lousy to say the least. We spent a lot of our time toiling away (through *all* of the early beta issues mind you) to earn the assets that we have - under the impression that there would be no wipe (as NQ clearly stated.) It's not our fault that you didn't listen to the very clear feedback about the nonsensical schematic system, so don't (doubly) punish us for it now. 
 
The people crying about wipes only want an opportunity to hit it rich, like some of those *early supporters* did. If you bend the knee to them, you'll just deal with the same thing at some point in the future. Because there is no stopping the giant disparity between casual and hardcore players. A wealthy elite will always come into existence, no matter what you do. So why punish your earliest supporters just to kick that can down the road?
 
You made people pay for access to the game - that means you are literally stealing people's money if you decide to reset everything. I know you'll never get another dime from me, and I'd imagine that plenty of us feel the same. The 'full wipe' enthusiasts won't stick around any longer after a wipe than they will now - save for the few that actually get rich. Make sure you take that into account as well. There are other means to attract/incentivize new players without completely destroying the game for the vets. Hopefully this reply doesn't fall on deaf ears, because a full wipe is going to destroy the game.

For me it really comes down to if this is only a test server to be wiped on release, why have the PTS? Should just give us all the stuff on the live server and actually test the hell out of it and make the game better. But it wasn't framed that way. We were sold persistence and the ability to build a world. 
 
If I knew that all the work I've done under that premise would be deleted, do you really think I would have paid a sub? No, I would have played a game that valued the cash and time spent helping the Devs with bug reporting and testing out this buggy mess.

It all been said already, just adding my voice AGAINST a wipe.
 
And absolutely #donttouchmytalentpoints
 

For any normal game, the game loop should be entertaining on it's own. But for a lot of us, this game is a building game where we expect persistence. The game loops in the game are actually quickly boring and don't let up. It's just not only the building that can be frustrating (lack of proper tools/options), but grinding the resources/quanta is such a bother! The satisfaction comes when you've finish that project and set the goals to the next. Part of that satisfaction is that what you did is now there and can be used. Be it a ship, a base, factory, landing-pad, space station, the materials for 100M in space fuel, infrastructure, etc. I of course can choose to break it down again, to do something else, abandon it, blow it up in pvp, etc. But that is my choice/risk to make/take...
 
If NQ would have said that they would wipe at launch, I wouldn't be playing DU and paying NQ for the privilage. If NQ says, we'll do it in two years (again), I won't continue to play. Many wouldn't.

How about they wipe just your stuff? Or you can do it yourself too

What is the added value for us players from this event? I can see your advantage. I don't see any animals, plants that you can integrate as a resource in the game. So possible it is, but don't recognize that NQ would work on it or think about it. Trees grow back after being cut down, you can make wooden boards out of them, then furniture.

Trees can carry seeds that spread themselves by wind and grow new trees, at the same time you can pick up seeds or saplings to plant on your own land. Breeding would be conceivable. A whole game system around the cultivation and breeding of plants to the integration into the professions to produce something.
The same goes for animals, you could catch, tame or breed wild animals, develop skins or tanning materials from them....tent tarps, sails, carpets, collectible figures,....ja - then, if the planets are so full of life that you can really spend a lot of time as a player with that alone, then I would really be willing to also accept a complete wipe and be happy.

BUT NQ doesn't want to go that deep into a role-playing game....the changes so far are minimalistic and don't result in any valuable new game content. Currently I see DualUniverse in the stage of an alpha - they are playing around with basic game mechanics as if they still don't even know how the final product should look like after so many years.

Although I could live with a partial wipe, I still don't see any reason for a wipe. The pros and cons given sound a bit contrived to me:

New player experience
If an MMO needs a wipe to attract new players, where are we a year later? You would need a wipe every year or so. The challenge is to make the game in such a way you can step in at any time I just did the new player experience on the test server, nice improvement. But I do not see how there being some big bases on Alioth or some rich players in space has any effect on the new players when I am setting up my base, start building and exploring. On the contrary: it gives something to explore and can be an inspiration to new builders in what is possible.
Exploits
Ok, so some players got rich using exploits. How does that effect other players?
The example I know of is the guy that bought 100 warp beacon schematics for 8mil each and was willing to sell them for 700mil. But my warp beacons (I bought the proper schematic) normally sell within two weeks and with a 1500% (15 times the production cost) margin. So it seems to have no effect at all that I can see. Ok, so they can buy more expensive guns. So what? the advantage of that is not great, and most of these cheaters don't even play anymore. Some other examples: gates have a >100% profit, advanced engines > 100%, rare engines 800%. There is no problem with rich people pushing out regular players. You can buy a Gate XL schematic with half a day of T5 astroid mining with 2 guys, you don't need exploits to be able to make it. If there is a problem with the markets, it is not because of rich players, but a lack of destruction. An element once made stays in the game forever, except in PVP and in players leaving the game. That is not a recipe for a healthy economy but exploits have nothing to do with it. It is rather naive to think there will never be an exploit again: people will find ways to cheat and exploit with every change to the game. Are you going to wipe every time that happens? Just deal with it and undo some transactions or kick some players, like other MMO's do. removing schematics will indeed resolve the market issue: there will be no market. The schematics where introduced exactly for this reason. Of course people will complain about the cost: new players are used to games where you are in the end game in 10 days and they don't want to invest time and effort for a 2 year period to build a factory (like I did). Those are exactly the players NQ should not listen too: they are on to the next game in a month anyway. You need to listen to the players that stick around and are willing to build long-term: those are your money-makers.
Partial wipe complexity
There are many ways to do partial wipes, and clean up the database. Not all of them sound complex to me:
You could let players mark up to 10 construct with a flag (like the headquarters) and then wipe the rest and reset the planets: the dynamics for planet reset and construct deletion are already there, and so is a 'tag construct' mechanism, so how is this complex? You could just remove the need for the schematics from the game and - like someone suggested in this forum - set up NPC buy orders for them. That makes refunding people real easy. And you don't need a wipe for that, could be done in a patch. You don't need to split communities if you want to start fresh and keep the current, you could make a gate/portal to a new solar system with its own currency where you can only take blueprints back and forth: that will be a bit more work I imagine, but only if you want new planets. you could also just copy this solar system and rename the current one 'legacy'. 
All-in-all it seems to me that part of the devs in NQ just want a clean database and are looking for arguments to justify a wipe.
 

I am against to a full wipe or half wipe or quarter wipe or 12% wipe and so on. Reasons?

Reason 1:  You say that new players are in disatvantage because there are well established players and huge orgs which have bilions of quanta.
Guess what?  
that will be case in max 1 year after the wipe and the situation will be exactly the same like now with huge orgs and fresh starters, what you gonna do? wipe again because big ones have advatanges? 
 
Reason 2: You say that the game is unbalance. 
Guess what?
this game will continuously evolving ( if it stays alive) and more larger feature will come with time. Those huge feature will cast imbalances in other places of the game. You will have to learn how to make changes on the go to the game WITHOUT wiping every now and then 
 

you realize this is it, this IS.... the last wipe you will ever be able to do.....
 
and what you gonna do then, 2 years from now when we are in full release and loopholes have been exploited, the economy has been ruined Again, players have gotten rich thru exploits and we are back in the same position we are right now.
you wont be able to wipe it all away then, you will be stuck with it.
 
This tells me you don't foresee the game even lasting 10 years because you can only fix problems by wiping and after 10 years of release so many issues will have occurred, like another dev pushing the wrong price to live instead of PTS. players exploiting loopholes so much it will ruin the economy again, that you will have no option but to shut the game down or sell it or walk away or make it free to play and go all in on a cash shop because you are not learning
to fix problems.

learn to fix without wiping

"Balance" is only important for healthy competition. DU is not competitive right now, so balancing it will not help anyone, only hurt people.
 
Even if updates manage to give DU meaningful competition, a wipe will only "Balance" things in a very temporary sense. A week or a month later, you will have some people with a massive advantage, and all the people who only joined for the "Balance" will be quitting. If you really want balanced competition then you need to come up with a plan to keep things balanced long-term, and a wipe is not that.

This exactly. I will also want a refund for my paid alts (I gave my beta keys away) because the premise of no wipe was part my long term investment.

Im struggling to understand NQ , and do you understand even your own reason for doing things?
Sure the addition of Schematics was loss of players and not well received, but without a system like Schematics there are no brakes on anybodies capabilities to mass produce.
 
I do remember the days well before schematics how everybody had their own factory, and nobody needed to visit a market, DO note also with the addition of Mining units a world without schematics would be like everybody is playing factorio that is easy mode, there is no need to use the market, except maybe change my Bauxite to Hematite and thats it
 
Also i have been playing this game under the original promise of no Wipe, that was even the reason when some Economic exploits happened some of us requested a server roll back
 
Do a wipe, and i will wipe my account

I have never read a bigger pile of one-sided bullsh*t basically advocating for full wipe in order to easily do away with schematics.  Just announce the decision and get it over with.

At beginning of beta it was announced "no more wipes except as required for updates" (like the mining update that was done).  So if NQ do decide to wipe, it would be yet another promise broken.  This also completely ignores that people have been paying monthly to play...

As for "removing unfair advantage" and "level playing field". These are fallacies to help people sleep better at night.  The players with the know how will return to the positions of abundance they have now in short order.   There will always be "haves" and "have nots".   All a wipe does is a slap in the face of the people that put time into the game after being told a wipe would not happen.
 
Make a system that creates schematics rather than remove them.  The problem with schematics, like the markets, is that they do not give player agency.  A player cannot make a schematic at all, they have to be bought.  Make science research a thing.

Cons for wipe have already been mentioned:   As I said, the "NQ thoughts" are heavily aligned to a wipe disregarding promises and small details like leaving an empty world, avid supporters of the game just leave, and paying customers just get their stuff removed.  

What a wipe also does is remove the history of DU such as it is... like Thoramine.  Deleting a piece of DU history like that is unforgivable.

Its a no to reset as  I have played the game for 5 hours per day for over 12 months (over 2000 hours), to get resources and warp cell factory up and running etc, i would have to quit and go back to eve if I lost all that time and effort.

After all the things. actually i'd just leave if there was a wipe. seriously, look at teh mega factories. The investments in the schematics. The time and faith of the community to provide content.
 
Resounding naw, Im out. Gimme monies back pls.
 
The billionaire things was fixed with athena I think and the new "way" for more schematics and rarity of plas.
 
anyway. pick right.
 

World is not quite dead "the world feels quite dead.", because it's dead. I haven't seen any life in it only static pointless huge constructs. The only constructs I respect is hangar and factory. The rest of buildings like towers, apartments, houses and other crap is useless, because your Avatar don't need it. Your Avatar don't sleep, eat, poop and not event TALK :D.
Ideas?
Wardrobe - place to change appearance (remove left menu button of avatar and add it here)
Bed placed on static core gives more logout bonuses. Something like 300 000 quanta for next login after N hours. 
Toilets or showers - gives 6h boost to skill point learning.
Add "push to talk" for people to communicate and build conference rooms, bars and other useless honycomb piles.
 
I know NPC in DU it's only a dream, but I still have hope for this.

I know the "unlimited" building is far from reality, but the way things are currently limited and the plans for even more limitations compared to what they sold to everyone is just really making me lose my hopes for this game. Like sure, I still have some stuff I own that I'm not fond of leaving behind, but the moment NQ decides to wipe a game with so many restrictions I'll simply just give up on my subscription and go back into Space Engineers. Arguing that the game is an MMO doesn't change much to be honest, since most of the time I don't see anyone around, except when I go to markets and stuff, the game feels really dead and empty.

This has been suggested and discussed many times by both the community and NQ, and the response from NQ has always been 'Most ppl play over the weekend, so it makes most sense to have asteroids spawn on Saturday. There is no intention to have asteroids spawn spread over the week.'
 
So much for listening to player feedback.....

World is not quite dead "the world feels quite dead.", because it's dead. I haven't seen any life in it only static pointless huge constructs. The only constructs I respect is hangar and factory. The rest of buildings like towers, apartments, houses and other crap is useless, because your Avatar don't need it. Your Avatar don't sleep, eat, poop and not event TALK :D.
Ideas?
Wardrobe - place to change appearance (remove left menu button of avatar and add it here)
Bed placed on static core gives more logout bonuses. Something like 300 000 quanta for next login after N hours. 
Toilets or showers - gives 6h boost to skill point learning.
Add "push to talk" for people to communicate and build conference rooms, bars and other useless honycomb piles.
 
I know NPC in DU it's only a dream, but I still have hope for this.

World is not quite dead "the world feels quite dead.", because it's dead. I haven't seen any life in it only static pointless huge constructs. The only constructs I respect is hangar and factory. The rest of buildings like towers, apartments, houses and other crap is useless, because your Avatar don't need it. Your Avatar don't sleep, eat, poop and not event TALK :D.
Ideas?
Wardrobe - place to change appearance (remove left menu button of avatar and add it here)
Bed placed on static core gives more logout bonuses. Something like 300 000 quanta for next login after N hours. 
Toilets or showers - gives 6h boost to skill point learning.
Add "push to talk" for people to communicate and build conference rooms, bars and other useless honycomb piles.
 
I know NPC in DU it's only a dream, but I still have hope for this.