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NO MORE EVE ONLINE PASSIVE SKILL TRAINING

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Jesus...

 

I just backed on kickstarter then I watched the video and it says you guys want to basically copy the eve skill system?

I have been playing eve since 2004 and I am SICK of it! Especially the skill system... after a few years you will NEVER catch up if you're a new player. Where's the fun in that?

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They said you'll be able to train 80% of your skills in a reasonable amount of time(so that new players can catch up), while the remaining 20% will take longer. I don't like the eve system neither, but this one should be quite faster, it shouldnt take 20 years to complete, maybe 2, but we don't know yet

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There is an alternative, that depthens quite a lot the system:

 

passive train things normally, but there's a twist:

every time you do an action in a certain domain, you earn a tiny amount of skill points in it, allowing you to level up as you use your skills, which is way more natural than selecting abstract skills because you may not be certain what skill points you will need.

the passive generation should remain as you may wanna eventually change activity, and thus be able to skip the lower steps of this.

skills should increase in a logarithmic way to be able to accustom newer player to smaller skill gap after some time.

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There is an alternative, that depthens quite a lot the system:

 

passive train things normally, but there's a twist:

every time you do an action in a certain domain, you earn a tiny amount of skill points in it, allowing you to level up as you use your skills, which is way more natural than selecting abstract skills because you may not be certain what skill points you will need.

the passive generation should remain as you may wanna eventually change activity, and thus be able to skip the lower steps of this.

skills should increase in a logarithmic way to be able to accustom newer player to smaller skill gap after some time.

I like this idea. Now it seems they already intend a log system for training.

The time based makes sense based on the lore, but youd think having experience from actions having an effect on your learning as well

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Jesus...

 

I just backed on kickstarter then I watched the video and it says you guys want to basically copy the eve skill system?

I have been playing eve since 2004 and I am SICK of it! Especially the skill system... after a few years you will NEVER catch up if you're a new player. Where's the fun in that?

i think they should make it have the passive skill training but you can speed it up by doing that activity

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I posted this on another thread of this exact same topic.

 

* Eve, specifically, does a couple of nifty things with the skill system. Each skill has a very limited number of levels (5). It is the number/diversity of skills that is more important. This means that the only big difference between a new player and a vet is the number of roles that they can choose to take on.

 

* The time to train 1, 2, 3, AND 4 of a skill is far less than just 4 to 5. That means that within a skill a newer player at level 4 is quite comparable to a vet a level 5 as none of the skills offer super drastic bonuses between levels.

 

* A player can unlock the next gameplay they want to get into while still playing their current in game role.

 

 

There is a major problem with gaining experience with doing that task, and that is human psychology. Humans are natural min/maxers. Time and time again players will create unfun grind to max a skill, even if developers never intended for it. Here is a random made up example: Skills in construction efficiency increases the more the player builds things. That sounds great because you expect that it is a reward for players being successful builders. What ends up happening is that players will just build as many uninteresting useless cubes that they can afford to min/max their skill before their Next Big Thing™. The developers can spend time creating and balancing "gotcha" mechanics to try and prevent this - not just for construction but combat, mining, and every other gameplay element, which will end up adding to a LOT of developer time. Or they can use an Eve line time based skill system and the developer time can be invested into interesting gameplay.

 

I really think, for a massive multi player game, that eve's time based system is incredibly elegant.

 

edit for words

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Eh, I have no issue with it. Namely because I made up my mind to support the game based on what they've said, and a game like this does seem to need some sort of a skill character sheet. If only to prevent the spam of fresh characters without anything to lose being created to go do something that is high risk / high reward. 

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I posted this on another thread of this exact same topic.

 

* Eve, specifically, does a couple of nifty things with the skill system. Each skill has a very limited number of levels (5). It is the number/diversity of skills that is more important. This means that the only big difference between a new player and a vet is the number of roles that they can choose to take on.

 

* The time to train 1, 2, 3, AND 4 of a skill is far less than just 4 to 5. That means that within a skill a newer player at level 4 is quite comparable to a vet a level 5 as none of the skills offer super drastic bonuses between levels.

 

* A player can unlock the next gameplay they want to get into while still playing their current in game role.

 

 

There is a major problem with gaining experience with doing that task and that is human psychology. Humans are natural min/maxers. Time and time again players will create unfun grind to max a skill, even if developers never intended for it. Here is a random made up example: Skills in construction costs efficiency increases the more the player builds things. That sounds great because you expect that it is a reward for players being successful builders. What ends up happening is that players will just build as many uninteresting useless cubes that they can afford to min/max their skill before their Next Big Thing™. The developers can then spend time creating and balancing "gotcha" mechanics to try and prevent this - not just for construction but combat, mining, and every other gameplay element, which will end up adding to a LOT of developer time. Or they can use an Eve line time based skill system and the developer time can be invested into interesting gameplay.

 

I really think, for a massive multi player game, that eve's time based system is incredibly elegant.

I really have to disagree. In your analysis you assume the skills increase linearly, wich is bound to result in that behavior. But if you have a logarithmic progression there is less and less reward to grinding, making it useless after some time. Imagine it as a max level without a limit, that is the property of the logarithmic curve. Levels wouldn't unlock new stuff, it would increase stats in the produced things. This said a veteran will always have an advantage over a newb, but the gap gets smaller and smaller with time. Just type f(x) = log(x) - log(x - 10) in google too see the gap curve.

 

A vet will always be able to make the best but the gap becomming smaller will decrease the demand for its products thus regulating the market to not make it balanced in the profit area.

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I would like to avoid a skill based system where everyone ends up with Build B from index A because its the most efficient.  The more variations of skill sets that work together the better imo so everyone seems different. 

 

I am a little dubious about passive skill gain though, I never played Eve but the system sounds too automated.

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I really have to disagree. In your analysis you assume the skills increase linearly, wich is bound to result in that behavior. But if you have a logarithmic progression there is less and less reward to grinding, making it useless after some time. Imagine it as a max level without a limit, that is the property of the logarithmic curve. Levels wouldn't unlock new stuff, it would increase stats in the produced things. This said a veteran will always have an advantage over a newb, but the gap gets smaller and smaller with time. Just type f(x) = log(x) - log(x - 10) in google too see the gap curve.

 

A vet will always be able to make the best but the gap becomming smaller will decrease the demand for its products thus regulating the market to not make it balanced in the profit area.

 

Sorry my post wasn't clear for you. I assumed log growth and levels being bonuses. (Did you quote the wrong post?) . Also my primary point is that players will create unfun grind if xp is gained by doing the task, despite the best intentions.

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I really have to disagree. In your analysis you assume the skills increase linearly, wich is bound to result in that behavior. But if you have a logarithmic progression there is less and less reward to grinding, making it useless after some time. Imagine it as a max level without a limit, that is the property of the logarithmic curve. Levels wouldn't unlock new stuff, it would increase stats in the produced things. This said a veteran will always have an advantage over a newb, but the gap gets smaller and smaller with time. Just type f(x) = log(x) - log(x - 10) in google too see the gap curve.

 

A vet will always be able to make the best but the gap becomming smaller will decrease the demand for its products thus regulating the market to not make it balanced in the profit area.

Croxis' post doesnt assume any specific xp-bonus curve.

People will grind levels if they actively can, a log increase would only make it more frustrating.

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Sorry my post wasn't clear for you. I assumed log growth and levels being bonuses. (Did you quote the wrong post?) . Also my primary point is that players will create unfun grind if xp is gained by doing the task, despite the best intentions.

They may grind at the srt but that exercise is futile if you gain more with autoskill than by grinding at the same time.

 

Best way to not let this become a system of slow progression, heigher tier tasks and productions would make you gain more skill points thus forcing you to constantly change activity thus making your concerns invalid. My position will always be the one of full control, and autoskill in itself is quite frustrating if i must say. If the tiers give exponentially give more skill points, and skill gain per tier is logarytmic, the progression becomes linear. Wich is more natural... but then it will create that problem where you are unable to go near to veterans. Thus keeping a linear skill gain and a log skill requirement leaves a log progression that is not slowing down too fast so it keeps things interresting.

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I like the idea.  It's like it is IRL.  I have been alive a lot longer than a 25 year old and I know more about the world and have more skills (most of the time).  And it was the same for all of us when we were young.  Same thing here too.   I want this game to be based in realism.

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What is fun about waiting? Making people be able to impact their skills is more fun than letting them wait.

Well, when you don't have 12 hours of free time in a day to binge a game to progress, a skill system that allows players with real life obligations like a job to enjoy the game and progress as well.

 

As someone who works 50 hours a week I see it as a positive.

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What is fun about waiting? Making people be able to impact their skills is more fun than letting them wait.

 

Waiting?  I'm talking about earning what you have.  If I don't have to actually earn it then there is no real challenge.  Then no matter how big and bad you are, it's all worthless.  I'm tired of playing worthless games.

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Well, when you don't have 12 hours of free time in a day to binge a game to progress, a skill system that allows players with real life obligations like a job to enjoy the game and progress as well.

 

As someone who works 50 hours a week I see it as a positive.

maybe for you, but what about hardcores? You cannot expect the same patience from every player, and if they are constantly limited for the sake of the unavailable players they will get bored

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You play a game for a longer time than someone, you should be able to be more advanced.  As mentioned, the variety and need to focus on a general specialty allows variety.  Eve's skill system while frustrating waiting is much better than any other mmo I have played.  Newbies have the same opportunity to be as good as me in an area if they put in the same time as I did training. It is fair.

 

The thought in another post had an idea of mixing the time based skill learning with a type of more efficiency in a skill the more you do it. Both the time based and grind based system though would have to have maxes of course.

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I have to admit one reason I refuse to touch Eve these days is because I'm behind. Of course in any MMORPG you are always going to behind someone out there. But at least you mentally know there is a chance you could be the best or one of the best.

 

To me it's hard to love it a lot because of the idea of taking a break and coming back and being behind.

 

This why I like to see some sort of active skill system where you actually can while playing physically help level your skills outside of a time restraints. 

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