Kirion Posted May 7, 2023 Share Posted May 7, 2023 On 5/5/2023 at 2:45 PM, Zeddrick said: For consequences of losing a mission, please dump the player somewhere in the PvP zone complete with their ship in whatever state it was in when the mission ended and somehow announce the location to everyone. The player get the possibility to not lose their ship and PvPers can join in with the fun! and just like that even more players will unsub for a terrible idea, whether you have a jump drive, cells to go with, or the gas to get to the right speed before a cube from one of the pvp guilds murders you with absolution(full set railguns), it is an unsubalition idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeddrick Posted May 7, 2023 Share Posted May 7, 2023 19 hours ago, Kirion said: and just like that even more players will unsub for a terrible idea, whether you have a jump drive, cells to go with, or the gas to get to the right speed before a cube from one of the pvp guilds murders you with absolution(full set railguns), it is an unsubalition idea. Why? Either you lose the ship or you get dumped in PvP space and your location is broadcast. If you don't want to PvP you just force respawn and lose the ship, which is what would have happened anyway. Or if you feel lucky you can try to get back to safety and perhaps save something you would otherwise lose. Either way the PvP groups can go to the location and fight each other for the ship or just because they saw each other in space and wanted to shoot somebody. Seems like everybody wins. I mean, some people are suggesting you should get to keep the ship anyway after losing at PvE, but if they're that risk averse why are they playing a combat game at all? Where's the fun in not risking anything? Perhaps the lower tiers could have small rewards and be for the cowards while anyone willing to risk their ship gets to do higher tiers and get better rewards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarcata Posted May 8, 2023 Share Posted May 8, 2023 7 hours ago, Zeddrick said: but if they're that risk averse why are they playing a combat game at all? It is primarily a building game for creative players who enjoy creating something permanent. These new instances are just to add some variety to the game, since many players are bored and have asked for content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindingBright Posted May 8, 2023 Share Posted May 8, 2023 23 hours ago, CptLoRes said: It takes some serious skill to completely miss the mark and consistently do it for this many years straight. Players: We don't like the PvP system you made, and the game is lacking content. We are leaving the game because of this, but might come back if you implement more content like PvE etc. NQ: Here is PvE! It's completely different from what players normally consider PvE, so that it will not bring life and purpose to the game world! And we made it using the PvP mechanics you did not like! You forget the bit where NQ changes up the PVP mechanics while adding PVE in a way nobody wants/asked for.... heavily alienating and upsetting the few diehards that enjoyed pvp. It's like shooting yourself in the foot, and then shooting your other foot just so you can bleed out evenly. It takes a special kind of cowboy and development team to pull that off. This isn't a mom and pop shop. NQ has employees, multiple offices, investors, etc... its nearly unfathomable that this idiocy has been allowed to continue. I hope the investors like seeing their money lit on fire. Instead of doubling down to deliver the product promised we get this BS. -- end of original reply. Edit/add, looks like NQ deleted the original post without warning or even a message as to why. I logged back on to see it and a string of messages deleted, including the original here. To Nyota or whomever is deleting my non inflammatory posts... I have spent hundreds on Dual Universe and have not gotten what I paid for, expressing my dissastification with new features and lack of development while other projects are being worked on is not against the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le_souriceau Posted May 8, 2023 Share Posted May 8, 2023 1 hour ago, BlindingBright said: You forget the bit where NQ changes up the PVP mechanics while adding PVE in a way nobody wants/asked for.... heavily alienating and upsetting the few diehards that enjoyed pvp. Its makes perfect sense as simulation of development they doing with DU now. Two guys still working on game done ok job with resources they had. Lasersmith 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeddrick Posted May 8, 2023 Share Posted May 8, 2023 14 hours ago, Zarcata said: It is primarily a building game for creative players who enjoy creating something permanent. These new instances are just to add some variety to the game, since many players are bored and have asked for content. I meant why are they playing PvE, which is a combat game. But you knew that, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirnsausen Posted May 10, 2023 Share Posted May 10, 2023 REQUEST Customizable Suit It would be nice, if the markets would allow to purchase suit elements, like maybe - a dozen different types of helmets (each with a various amount of slots) or a wide variety of modern and historic huts and/or head ornaments (no slots) - two dozens of space and/or atmospheric chest pieces (each with different amount of slots) or shirts (no slots) - two dozens of space and/or atmospheric pants (each with different amount of slots) or a wide variety of common shorts and pants - two dozens of space and/or atmospheric shoes (each with a few slots) or common shoes or sandals (no slots) Additional items would be - the beloved nanopack - common jackets - ammunition belts (left shoulder to right waist) or colorful belts (likewise diagonal) - holsters for additional tools or weapons - backpacks with storage slots - etc. Slot items would exist in a vast number and all different giving or enhancing different attributes - lamps - single-item storage - analyzer of many different types - body attribute enhancements - camera types - many different types of sensors - emergency packs - nanppack enhancer (enhances one of many different possible attributes) - airbag (protection during accidents) - etc. All items offer color regions that the player can freely change. It is ten also possible, inside atmosphere environment, to totally remove all suit pieces so only the underwear remains visible above body. This will make it very desirable that we players can change the body of our avatar, in many ways similar to Ark Survival Evolved) leave it up to the player to create a hero, an average person, or a physically handicapped or very fat/meager/short/tall person or even a walking nightmare. face changes also possible. Lasersmith 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kurgan Posted May 10, 2023 Share Posted May 10, 2023 On 5/7/2023 at 6:55 PM, Zeddrick said: Why? Either you lose the ship or you get dumped in PvP space and your location is broadcast. If you don't want to PvP you just force respawn and lose the ship, which is what would have happened anyway. Or if you feel lucky you can try to get back to safety and perhaps save something you would otherwise lose. Either way the PvP groups can go to the location and fight each other for the ship or just because they saw each other in space and wanted to shoot somebody. Seems like everybody wins. I mean, some people are suggesting you should get to keep the ship anyway after losing at PvE, but if they're that risk averse why are they playing a combat game at all? Where's the fun in not risking anything? Perhaps the lower tiers could have small rewards and be for the cowards while anyone willing to risk their ship gets to do higher tiers and get better rewards? You call people cowards at the same time saying you want the ability to run out and attack a broken and defenseless ship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeddrick Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 On 5/10/2023 at 1:42 PM, The_Kurgan said: You call people cowards at the same time saying you want the ability to run out and attack a broken and defenseless ship Nah, I want to fight the other people who come out to try to get the ship. And hopefully the ship is still intact, just ran out of time in the mission. So it ought not to be defenceless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atmosph3rik Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 1 hour ago, Zeddrick said: Nah, I want to fight the other people who come out to try to get the ship. And hopefully the ship is still intact, just ran out of time in the mission. So it ought not to be defenceless. That seems like a silly reason to design the PVE missions that way. It literally has nothing to do with the PVE missions. It would just provide another random meeting point for PVP, the exact same thing Asteroids already provide. The game already has that. What the game doesn't have is a way for all those "cowards" to actually fire the weapons on their ship a few times, before going up against another player, and risking their ship. I think they can probably find a way to balance the risk vs reward of the PVE missions without randomly dumping people's ships in PVP space to entertain bored PVPers. Lasersmith 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeddrick Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 15 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said: That seems like a silly reason to design the PVE missions that way. It literally has nothing to do with the PVE missions. It would just provide another random meeting point for PVP, the exact same thing Asteroids already provide. The game already has that. What the game doesn't have is a way for all those "cowards" to actually fire the weapons on their ship a few times, before going up against another player, and risking their ship. I think they can probably find a way to balance the risk vs reward of the PVE missions without randomly dumping people's ships in PVP space to entertain bored PVPers. Assuming nobody is a coward, they're fine with losing the ship to PvE if they lose a mission, right? I don't really see why dumping a ship in PvP space would be *worse* than exploding it. The player can just abandon it if they want, and then it's just like it would be if it got exploded in PvE. Or if they fancy a challenge they can try to save it and they might have some fun doing that. Or are you suggesting that they lose a PvE fight and just get to keep their ship? That's PvE for cowards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atmosph3rik Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 15 minutes ago, Zeddrick said: Assuming nobody is a coward, they're fine with losing the ship to PvE if they lose a mission, right? I don't really see why dumping a ship in PvP space would be *worse* than exploding it. The player can just abandon it if they want, and then it's just like it would be if it got exploded in PvE. Or if they fancy a challenge they can try to save it and they might have some fun doing that. Or are you suggesting that they lose a PvE fight and just get to keep their ship? That's PvE for cowards. Even in PVP a ship doesn't just vanish, someone has the option to recover it. The idea that someone might recover their destroyed ship after a PVE mission doesn't seem all that crazy to me. And completely repairing a destroyed ship is a cost. Honestly it seems like your being intentionally unhelpful here, so i'm going to go ahead and ignore you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeddrick Posted May 12, 2023 Share Posted May 12, 2023 2 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said: Even in PVP a ship doesn't just vanish, someone has the option to recover it. The idea that someone might recover their destroyed ship after a PVE mission doesn't seem all that crazy to me. And completely repairing a destroyed ship is a cost. Honestly it seems like your being intentionally unhelpful here, so i'm going to go ahead and ignore you. So long as the PvE enemy is still there and you defeat it in order to get the wreck back that's cool too! I just don't the idea that your shipwreck is somehow teleported back for you. You fight something and in wins they should get your ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RugesV Posted May 13, 2023 Share Posted May 13, 2023 7 hours ago, Zeddrick said: I don't really see why dumping a ship in PvP space would be *worse* than exploding it (in PVE?) In PVE you have a chance of gaining value. In PVP unless your going after goo, or pirating a miner, your not really gaining value. other then the lulz and salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindingBright Posted May 13, 2023 Share Posted May 13, 2023 12 hours ago, RugesV said: In PVE you have a chance of gaining value. In PVP unless your going after goo, or pirating a miner, your not really gaining value. other then the lulz and salt. That is the other largest issue with this game, it's pvp oriented but it's a PITA to get into PVP and the risks are too high for most (I know some people love high stakes pvp, but most dont) ESO PVP you die, you loose nothing of value and even still the care bears tend to dislike it. In Albion it's easier to maintain gear/reaquire when lost... while their is still the more hard-core aspect it isn't as punishing as DU pvp for the loosing party. So then DU PVP tends to attract IMHO the worst of the worst players who like laying a steamer in the sandbox and getting people to QQ. It attracts the most toxic forms of behaviour(literally infiltrating peolples social groups to fuq with them long term) as it's allowed and for some reason NQ more or less encourages it. That's not PVP, that's toxic for your gaming community while giving a holes an outlet for their aholeness. It wouldn't be major problem if the game wasn't a massive grind for resources, and that your progress in this game is largely tied to that... but alas. I keep wondering how the game could have been if they just had balanced it differently without major changes and going f2p. All that are left are the pvp holdouts that like knocking over sand castles and pve builders who won't take the time to learn Blender and Unreal Engine. It's the weirdest ven diagram of remaining players. I'll keep an eye on the game/nq developments. I still hope they'll learn from this and imement positive changes based on that. I'd love to come back and play DU, but then I remember what NQ has done with it and just get filled with sadness. I miss DU, but not enough to punish myself to enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeddrick Posted May 13, 2023 Share Posted May 13, 2023 20 hours ago, RugesV said: In PVE you have a chance of gaining value. In PVP unless your going after goo, or pirating a miner, your not really gaining value. other then the lulz and salt. But this has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. Did you even read it or did you just skipread 'PvE' and 'PvP'. GO back and actually read it. Explain how your brainfart is even remotely relevant to what I said? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blundertwink Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 The combat in this game isn't fun, PvP or not. The risk (by which we're talking about time, not money or resources) is never worth it -- because the payoff is a niche form of combat that most players find too boring and clunky to take seriously. If it were really so fun...there'd be plenty of people to PvP and no one would need to be plopped into PvP space just to give PvPers something to do. Like...if the game isn't fun as a PvPer, maybe try a game with an actual player base and a real implementation of combat mechanics...a game where you can face real competition. It's hilarious seeing people around here proud of their PvP 'smackdowns' when it's against the same tiny group of players in a game that no one takes seriously as a PvP experience. It's the same with using words like "coward"...if you're so brave, try a game with even a shred of an actual competitive PvP scene. Not that using "coward" means anything to anyone playing a game that's over fourteen; we play games to have fun, not to show how "brave" we are. Granted, there's nothing especially brave about PvP in any video game, especially this video game. If you're concerned about everyone else being a "coward", that's just a really strange obsession to me...especially in a thread that's supposed to be about PvE. PvP and its many issues have been talked about for years and years, give it a rest for this one thread... Lasersmith 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindingBright Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 18 hours ago, blundertwink said: The combat in this game isn't fun, PvP or not. The risk (by which we're talking about time, not money or resources) is never worth it -- because the payoff is a niche form of combat that most players find too boring and clunky to take seriously. If it were really so fun...there'd be plenty of people to PvP and no one would need to be plopped into PvP space just to give PvPers something to do. Like...if the game isn't fun as a PvPer, maybe try a game with an actual player base and a real implementation of combat mechanics...a game where you can face real competition. It's hilarious seeing people around here proud of their PvP 'smackdowns' when it's against the same tiny group of players in a game that no one takes seriously as a PvP experience. It's the same with using words like "coward"...if you're so brave, try a game with even a shred of an actual competitive PvP scene. Not that using "coward" means anything to anyone playing a game that's over fourteen; we play games to have fun, not to show how "brave" we are. Granted, there's nothing especially brave about PvP in any video game, especially this video game. If you're concerned about everyone else being a "coward", that's just a really strange obsession to me...especially in a thread that's supposed to be about PvE. PvP and its many issues have been talked about for years and years, give it a rest for this one thread... Thank you for further illustrating my point. PVP in this game is more liken to bullying than an actual PVP experience. NQ wants those types of players. I say, let them have DU and keep their toxicity away from other games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blundertwink Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 29 minutes ago, BlindingBright said: Thank you for further illustrating my point. PVP in this game is more liken to bullying than an actual PVP experience. NQ wants those types of players. I say, let them have DU and keep their toxicity away from other games. Honestly, bullying is a good way to describe it -- not because they want to use game mechanics to fight other players, but because they have no respect for what other people might consider fun. If you have to question why someone does or doesn't think something is fun...that's already a silly exercise in narcism and really none of your business. But all that aside, it's especially weird to be insistent that everyone PvPs in this of all games, where the combat model is a joke and the asynchronous nature of open-world PvP is far from being competitive or balanced. But hey, I guess I get it, since arguing about PvP is actually the only form of PvP left in DU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atmosph3rik Posted May 16, 2023 Share Posted May 16, 2023 I feel like the whole industry just lost the plot at some point when it comes to the idea of what "PVP" is. It means player vs player, but only in the context of a game where you don't usually fight other players. It's really an MMORPG specific term. It's not called PVP in a fighting game or a First Person Shooter, it's just gameplay. The first MMO i played was Everquest. It had PVP if you played on a PVP server, but the PVP never really worked. Some classes were totally overpowered, and others were almost completely helpless. But it made the game a lot more fun, because you never knew when someone was going to show up and try to kill you. PVP wasn't the point of the game though, it just added a little spice. The PVP was never really fun for me. It was just fun to be able to do PVP in a game that you already enjoyed playing. Early on I was skeptical about whether this game was going to be fun for a large portion of the PVP players who were here on the forums making demands about how the game should work. But they didn't want to hear it. We spent weeks on these forums at one point arguing about whether the game should have a 3rd person view, because some PVP players were concerned that it would give people an unfair advantage in cover-based ground combat. I know NQ set some unreasonable expectations in a lot of ways, but i don't understand how anyone could reach the conclusion that this game was ever going to have cover-based FPS combat in it. I think NQ has the framework of a game here that a lot of people could enjoy. And i do think PVP has the potential to make it more interesting. But frankly they need to stop listening to people who are only here for the PVP. Because those people will never be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blundertwink Posted May 17, 2023 Share Posted May 17, 2023 18 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said: The first MMO i played was Everquest. It had PVP if you played on a PVP server, but the PVP never really worked. Some classes were totally overpowered, and others were almost completely helpless. But it made the game a lot more fun, because you never knew when someone was going to show up and try to kill you. PVP wasn't the point of the game though, it just added a little spice. The PVP was never really fun for me. It was just fun to be able to do PVP in a game that you already enjoyed playing. I think many people around here have similar experiences...and it's important to keep in mind that DU's audience skewing older is generally a bad sign for an MMO. For it to be "massive", it can't have a design foundation that's ~20 years old. Asynchronous open world PvP is an outmoded, old concept that isn't going to scale in 2023, especially when the "combat" in this game is boring, simplistic, and poorly balanced. This style would only work if the systems surrounding PvP made it less harsh and annoying and offered far better feedbacks and mechanics in general. I feel that NQ built the game from a perspective that was decades out-of-date and it shows across every system they made. 18 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said: I know NQ set some unreasonable expectations in a lot of ways, but i don't understand how anyone could reach the conclusion that this game was ever going to have cover-based FPS combat in it. Some of these people are probably still believing that Territory War will come, never mind ground combat...the game is 8+ months into release, with a peak of ~800 DAUs and now not even exceeding 100 DAUs. It ain't happening, people. TW ain't happening, ground-based combat of any sort ain't happening... Yet much like Blockchain bros, some people want to double down about why the game didn't work..."well, it'd work if there were more PvP, the problem is that things are too safe. More risk equals more engagement." That's not how game design works, of course. Risk isn't proportional to engagement and no serious designer would try to make that claim, but that's what the PvP crowd keeps insisting for some reason...people love looking for a simple explanation of why things aren't working, but with DU...it isn't that simple. The issues run much deeper than naive, simplistic views of risk vs. reward or "do more PvP". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atmosph3rik Posted May 17, 2023 Share Posted May 17, 2023 1 hour ago, blundertwink said: I think many people around here have similar experiences...and it's important to keep in mind that DU's audience skewing older is generally a bad sign for an MMO. For it to be "massive", it can't have a design foundation that's ~20 years old. Asynchronous open world PvP is an outmoded, old concept that isn't going to scale in 2023, especially when the "combat" in this game is boring, simplistic, and poorly balanced. This style would only work if the systems surrounding PvP made it less harsh and annoying and offered far better feedbacks and mechanics in general. I feel that NQ built the game from a perspective that was decades out-of-date and it shows across every system they made. Some of it is decades out-of-date for sure. But some of it is pretty cutting-edge too. I guess i always thought that's what the formula was supposed to be. That kind of trade-off has worked for other games in the past. When i first saw someone playing Everquest i thought the combat looked like a joke. Your character just stands there, and swings their arm every few seconds, and a chicken monster stands there and wobbles a bit, and some damage numbers float by at the bottom of the screen. It looked terrible. And the graphics were terrible too, in comparison to most other games at that time. But Everquest offered other things that no other game had. An absolutely massive game world, the unpredictability of other players, thousands of hours of playability. It was interesting enough that i was willing to pay $10 a month and tie up a phoneline to play it. I played a new game called Everspace 2 recently. It's a fun little space shooter with really great combat. But playing it really reminded me where we are technologically at the moment. They really killed it with the space-shooter combat in this game. But to get there they had to make some sacrifices too. It's a single player game, no multiplayer at all. You play in a tiny little bubble with a skybox. Some areas look like space, others look like a small area on the surface of a planet. Warp travel is basically just a fancy map that you look at while you travel between areas, similar to Elite:Dangerous. And the game only entertained me for maybe a week tops. It was fun, and worth the money. But when i'm done i've still got money left in the bank, and i'm still looking for something more. I realize that i probably represent a pretty small niche. But MMORPGs have always been a small niche. Even at the peak of their popularity, half the people playing them kind of hated them. That's why the industry has spent so much time throwing every aspect of them under the bus, with their "skill-based action combat" and "Sandboxes" and all those other silly buzzwords that turned out to mean nothing. I just think NQ spent too much time overselling the negative trade-offs and underselling the positive aspects of the game. And it's never had a chance to find its niche. Or its niche hasn't had a chance to find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blundertwink Posted May 18, 2023 Share Posted May 18, 2023 20 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said: But MMORPGs have always been a small niche. I don't agree with this sentiment, the MMO genre has only increased over time and WoW had over 12 million players at peak back in 2010. This is a $20+ billion industry today; perhaps not "huge" compared to the oil industry, but still about 10% of the gaming industry overall by dollar value. The MMO "slice" maintains a roughly 10% CAGR, so it's certainly growing and will only continue to grow. I wouldn't say it's a "small niche". Hence why many MMOs secure $200+ million budgets -- it's a bigger business now than it's ever been. 20 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said: Some of it is decades out-of-date for sure. But some of it is pretty cutting-edge too. I guess i always thought that's what the formula was supposed to be. That kind of trade-off has worked for other games in the past. I'm not sure I agree about DU being cutting edge -- or maybe I don't agree that the areas where DU was trying to be "cutting edge" are actually a good ideas. The "cutting edge" ideas about the design don't really make sense (like the idea that the game didn't need NPCs and players will do everything or even the general idea of a single-shard persistent builder ever scaling as an MMO). The design of the game (as it actually exists, not the "pitch") never really made sense. Perhaps more importantly, there's nothing "cutting edge" about the technicals because they don't scale, which dramatically affected their ability to delivery on random design ideas that had no basis in reality. There's nothing cutting edge about the visuals either, clearly. Or the lore. 20 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said: I just think NQ spent too much time overselling the negative trade-offs and underselling the positive aspects of the game. And it's never had a chance to find its niche. Or its niche hasn't had a chance to find it. This makes it sound like DU is just fine as a product, the issue is with how the game is presented. Or that the issue is that not enough people have given the game a try. I am not sure I agree with that idea, but I'm not sure it matters...because a truly "niche" MMO can't exist, especially as a subscription product. Even Eve Online (which people sometimes say is a "niche" MMO) isn't truly a niche game. It obviously has a level of mass appeal. Eve is a game that nearly 10 million people have played over its lifetime, yet people consider it "niche" because MMOs must operate at "massive" scale to work, so they compare it to huge titles like Wow or Final Fantasy. By comparison....DU has had maybe 10,000 or so that have played during its lifetime of release? Maybe as high as 20-30k? After 8+ months of release? And 8+ years of dev? It's had ample chance to find its niche (more than many, many, many games) but a stable player base for a game of this quality just doesn't exist in numbers enough to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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