Jump to content
Spartan_raidrhater

No Construct vs. Construct at Launch a Good Thing

Recommended Posts

Digging may work because it is "destroying" ground if mining restriction only restricts collecting ore, while digging.

Digging probably falls under the category of "editing". Since TU's will be able to restrict edits, this will include subtracting voxels from the terrain (digging).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If their base is walled off, the people that own it wouldn't be able to get in or out. If they used ships to get in or out, in theory an attacker could do the same.

 

Ha! I did not look at it like that.

Yea in theory you could drop in to ruin the party. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as I understand the TU disables the hand manipulator tool, you can still "dig" by using explosives, although thats going to be pretty resource intensive.

Sorry to say that currently explosives are not a thing. I do hope they include some type of TNT at some point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont think it will be like that.

If you cant enter at all you wouldnt be able to take over territory.

Unless I'm missing something. :)

Yes I agree. I'missing that too.

Only solution I see is a Spy.

 

Later in same article

"Now, a few words about war. You can get control over a territory by “convincing” its owner or administrator to give a delegation to you, or, more traditionally, you can enter it, find the territory unit, destroy it and plant your own, or simply hack it. Expect it to be well hidden and well defended. "

 

It should not be easy to take ower a terrotiry.

If TU is rare and wery difficult to get. It may be much more difficult to desroy it.

 

I would be wery disappointed if one can just drill a hole into a wall or digg a tunnel..... to be able to destroy something so important.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If a hacking system is implemented prior to Avatars damaging Constructs, then it would be possible to take over a territory.

 

You would need an assault force and at least one player with a high hacking skill, and this would be under the assumption that a player wouldn't be able to literally bury their TU.

 

That's simply not gonna happen. You'll never be able to steal a construct without fighting or a similar social high risk activity. 

Hacking as intended by NQ, is probably the moment you steal a ship/territory AFTER breaching and fighting. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By no means did I read all of your posts...some of you have great posts btw...thanks for making this a better game by sharing your ideas!

I suspect that the concerns brought up in this post are going to be mitigated through servers and instancing.  I think having a single server with 8000 (because that is how many of us there are at the base)+ people will not work without multiple servers or at least instancing.  Ark and Space engineers do this...I am not sure how Eve handles it but I believe they do instancing.  I know in Ark that a newb generally didn't join well established servers where everyone had everything already.  Same thing in SE.  

I suspect we will see a gameplay / system / game more akin to Ark and SE than Eve or WoW and thus mega servers won't be possible without significant instancing elements on the server side.  This alone wouldn't stop more established players from attacking newbs and ruining the experience so I think adding in anti griefing elements server side would fix this.  I brought up this idea in another post but I think the starting planet should only be entered one way, by starting the game for the first time.  Once you leave this planet to advanced, it should be impossible to re enter this planet.  This would prevent pro's from harassing the newbs.  Go see my other post for the details.

Again...cool ideas and good dialog! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By no means did I read all of your posts...some of you have great posts btw...thanks for making this a better game by sharing your ideas!

I suspect that the concerns brought up in this post are going to be mitigated through servers and instancing.  I think having a single server with 8000 (because that is how many of us there are at the base)+ people will not work without multiple servers or at least instancing.  Ark and Space engineers do this...I am not sure how Eve handles it but I believe they do instancing.  I know in Ark that a newb generally didn't join well established servers where everyone had everything already.  Same thing in SE.  

I suspect we will see a gameplay / system / game more akin to Ark and SE than Eve or WoW and thus mega servers won't be possible without significant instancing elements on the server side.  This alone wouldn't stop more established players from attacking newbs and ruining the experience so I think adding in anti griefing elements server side would fix this.  I brought up this idea in another post but I think the starting planet should only be entered one way, by starting the game for the first time.  Once you leave this planet to advanced, it should be impossible to re enter this planet.  This would prevent pro's from harassing the newbs.  Go see my other post for the details.

Again...cool ideas and good dialog!

 

It wont be any instances or multiple servers.

https://devblog.dualthegame.com/2014/09/26/a-single-shard-continuous-universe-one-world-no-boundaries/

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QeZtqoydXpc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By no means did I read all of your posts...some of you have great posts btw...thanks for making this a better game by sharing your ideas!

 

I suspect that the concerns brought up in this post are going to be mitigated through servers and instancing. I think having a single server with 8000 (because that is how many of us there are at the base)+ people will not work without multiple servers or at least instancing. Ark and Space engineers do this...I am not sure how Eve handles it but I believe they do instancing. I know in Ark that a newb generally didn't join well established servers where everyone had everything already. Same thing in SE.

 

I suspect we will see a gameplay / system / game more akin to Ark and SE than Eve or WoW and thus mega servers won't be possible without significant instancing elements on the server side. This alone wouldn't stop more established players from attacking newbs and ruining the experience so I think adding in anti griefing elements server side would fix this. I brought up this idea in another post but I think the starting planet should only be entered one way, by starting the game for the first time. Once you leave this planet to advanced, it should be impossible to re enter this planet. This would prevent pro's from harassing the newbs. Go see my other post for the details.

 

Again...cool ideas and good dialog!

Read the dev blogs, watch the videos.

 

Due is single shard with NO INSTANCES. Like on eve, there are NO INSTANCES. A sol system in eve can be run on one server/cluster (which is part of the single shard) because there are gates but you DON'T HAVE GATES IN DU. This is ONE world

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont see any solution how to prevent pro's from harassing the newbs.

I dont think it needs a solution in my opinion. Its part of the game being a sandbox.

 

There is already a safe zone and possibly we will discover other safe zones. If you want 100% protection stay in the safe zone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There will still be Avatar vs Avatar combat, and there is a strong likelihood that avatar weapons will be able to damage constructs. Combat is going to be very STRANGE, but there will be combat.

 

The biggest implication this has for me, is that as a builder we won't be able to really develop fighters until after the game has already been released. If avatar weapons can damage constructs, we may be able to build ships and structures that allow players to shoot from them at other constructs. For example, a fighter with a machine gun nest built in, where a 2nd player fires through gaps in the fighter's armor at other ships, or a bunker with firing slits.

If avatar weapons can damage constructs, than a ship could have its weapons disabled, and be subject to a boarding action if it is a large enough construct for it to have a control center.

 

But when proper CVC gets implemented, there will be a development frenzy of builders retrofitting existing constructs to allow for weapons. It will prevent alpha and beta players from having an advantage in holding military blueprints through wipe, and will dramatically alter player behavior at launch. There won't be an arms race (apart from avatar weapons), instead each org will be racing to get infrastructure in-place for producing military constructs, stockpiling resources, TU's, etc.

 

That notion is kind of exciting and could be used to build hype for release. Everyone will have an opportunity to get "set up" before it all hits the fan.

 

But again, they might raise enough funds through paypal to hit that goal post-kickstarter regardless.

That's a great notion.  It's sort of like how in world war 1, for the first few months, pilots actually shot at one another with pistols.  I can see a ship with groups of people with little personal turret points shooting their hand weapons at enemies... it will make for weird combat, that's for sure!  But imagine the pirate ship chasing the freighter, toughs in space suits shooting the engines out as they close, then just getpacking to the helpless ship, breaching the hull and getting inside...

 

It even makes sense in game because we can only make stuff with our nanocannons, and without the blueprints for railguns and such, we have to improvise.  Warship design will be very interesting indeed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Read the dev blogs, watch the videos.

Due is single shard with NO INSTANCES. Like on eve, there are NO INSTANCES. A sol system in eve can be run on one server/cluster (which is part of the single shard) because there are gates but you DON'T HAVE GATES IN DU. This is ONE world

 

Any solar system in Eve is an instance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry if I seem ignorant, but im only just now reading up on everything.

 

I understood it that DU is single shard, but will still have stargates. But you can still fly to other solar systems using slower methods by sending a probe first right?

 

I was hoping they would have construct versus construct on launch, but I guess in the short term it does help. Keeps players' focus on building up first, rather than being at each others throats day one. Even though... that would be fun. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It certainly will be interesting at launch with designs focused on boarding parties ability to get into ships and take control of them. With the cvc added blowing a hole in a ship from afar will be an option as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah this is exactly what I have been saying in a number of threads. I was merely agreeing that not having it in at launch doesn't make fantastic advertising. "You can build space guns" sounds much better than "You will eventually be able to build space guns". It makes no difference in terms of gameplay and is probably a good thing, just in terms of marketing.

 

I think you are right.  While most of us here can certainly wait until the right time to get CVC, not having it at launch will do nothing to entice new players into the game.  So it might be a slow start.  Hopefully they will have a lot of marketing planned just for the release of that expansion - as much, if not even more, than the actual live release.  

 

And I am also concerned about all of the more casual players who get used to living in relative peace in safe zones who will fight CVC once they start talking about launching it.  It will change the game and many will already be comfortable with how it is and will do their best to try to talk the Devs out of adding it in.  Seen it happen before.  

 

I'm in for the long-haul either way.  If this game ends up being half of what they plan on making it, I'll probably be very happy with the game.  I just hope the Devs don't buckle under pressure when the outcry comes. Seen that happen before too. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you are right.  While most of us here can certainly wait until the right time to get CVC, not having it at launch will do nothing to entice new players into the game.  So it might be a slow start.  Hopefully they will have a lot of marketing planned just for the release of that expansion - as much, if not even more, than the actual live release.  

 

And I am also concerned about all of the more casual players who get used to living in relative peace in safe zones who will fight CVC once they start talking about launching it.  It will change the game and many will already be comfortable with how it is and will do their best to try to talk the Devs out of adding it in.  Seen it happen before.  

 

I'm in for the long-haul either way.  If this game ends up being half of what they plan on making it, I'll probably be very happy with the game.  I just hope the Devs don't buckle under pressure when the outcry comes. Seen that happen before too. :(

Well they're French, so they're stubborn.  The louder people yell for CvC the less compliant they'll become... and in this case that's a good thing.  We want CvC right, not right now.  And JC said it would be available in the 1st update.but he didn't say when that update would come out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I would think the game would mainly be marketed as a Sci-fi based Sandbox game with voxel creation and not just space sim 2.0. New players will have plenty to do while waiting for the space combat to be added in the first update.

 

its one thing if it wasn't in the game and they weren't saying when/if it was going to be added. But they are clearly saying it IS going to be added and it'll be added in the first updates after launch. Transparency makes all the difference in the world, IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yea I know what they said.  But I don't see it happening...It just isn't feasible to expect to have 100k players or 8k players and all of their stuff being constantly updated by moving players.  It is fine if no one moves, but as soon as movement occurs, all locations have to be updated and that requires data; albeit small amounts of data.  

 

Being that it is a space game, you have your standard x,y, velocity variables to tell other clients...but you also have zulu and trajectories.  Then you have health information, shields, and other bits of information.  Each of those aforementioned items will probably be stored in a unicode format which could take up to 4 bytes a piece.  

 

So then we have something called polling which I am sure all of you are familiar with.  It wouldn't be a good game if the developer decided to handle network traffic by only updating the clients once a minute.  It might be okay if it was once a second but a lot can happen in that second and I am sure anyone landing would prefer it to be a lot higher than once a second.  

 

So already we have at least 60 updates a second...and this goes for all of the clients online.  I am not sure how they are wanting to do the server...if they did a distributed server then all of the clients would tell each other all of this information 60 times a second.  If they used a traditional server then we would all tell the server this information 60 times a second and the server would tell all of us 60 times a second the updated information for our clients to draw on our screen.  It is also possible they use more of a cloud style server where nothing is actually ever on your client except what the server tells you...but I really don't see this one likely.

 

Regardless, I think you can already see a pattern.  We haven't even gotten to the static objects either or the re-spawns or the regrowth or anything else....There is a lot more that goes across the network.  

 

Now network programmers have a lot of tricks up their sleeves to mitigate everything I just mentioned but despite all of this, it is still a ton of data when you consider the number of players that they are wanting to bring together without instancing and servers.  

 

We will see...I would love if everyone could play at one time, I just don't see how it will be possible as a software engineer.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Read the dev blogs, watch the videos.

 

Due is single shard with NO INSTANCES. Like on eve, there are NO INSTANCES. A sol system in eve can be run on one server/cluster (which is part of the single shard) because there are gates but you DON'T HAVE GATES IN DU. This is ONE world

Oh I read it...From a programming and networking stand point this is not likely going to happen without instancing or servers.  As other backers have stated, even Eve uses instancing.  I am not about to load in an entire infinite universe into my ram...just saying...No one has enough memory for this.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yea I know what they said.  But I don't see it happening...It just isn't feasible to expect to have 100k players or 8k players and all of their stuff being constantly updated by moving players.  It is fine if no one moves, but as soon as movement occurs, all locations have to be updated and that requires data; albeit small amounts of data.  

 

Being that it is a space game, you have your standard x,y, velocity variables to tell other clients...but you also have zulu and trajectories.  Then you have health information, shields, and other bits of information.  Each of those aforementioned items will probably be stored in a unicode format which could take up to 4 bytes a piece.  

 

So then we have something called polling which I am sure all of you are familiar with.  It wouldn't be a good game if the developer decided to handle network traffic by only updating the clients once a minute.  It might be okay if it was once a second but a lot can happen in that second and I am sure anyone landing would prefer it to be a lot higher than once a second.  

 

So already we have at least 60 updates a second...and this goes for all of the clients online.  I am not sure how they are wanting to do the server...if they did a distributed server then all of the clients would tell each other all of this information 60 times a second.  If they used a traditional server then we would all tell the server this information 60 times a second and the server would tell all of us 60 times a second the updated information for our clients to draw on our screen.  It is also possible they use more of a cloud style server where nothing is actually ever on your client except what the server tells you...but I really don't see this one likely.

 

Regardless, I think you can already see a pattern.  We haven't even gotten to the static objects either or the re-spawns or the regrowth or anything else....There is a lot more that goes across the network.  

 

Now network programmers have a lot of tricks up their sleeves to mitigate everything I just mentioned but despite all of this, it is still a ton of data when you consider the number of players that they are wanting to bring together without instancing and servers.  

 

We will see...I would love if everyone could play at one time, I just don't see how it will be possible as a software engineer.  

 

Well, from what I have learned this is new tech that they have been working on for years before they even started working on the game itself.  I doubt any of us would know too much about it except what they tell us at this point.  I have faith.  They don't seem like liars to me, so until they prove that they actually are, I will choose to believe it is possible.  Somebody is going to figure it out some time, so why not these guys?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...