wizardoftrash

That would certainly address the concerns I voiced.
 
But this suggestion has another catch: peer2peer networks would leave the game wide open for hackers. Effective anti-cheat mechanisms are afaik only really possible in a client-server system.
 
Not sure how much of an advantage it would give players to hack such a system, i.e. to make other ships leaky and magically plug their own holes. But it would happen eventually that someone did just that.

Uuuhhhhhhh huh
 
In the same post you stated that this specific mechanic needs to be complex, while also aknowledging that you don't know how hard it will be to implement and for the server to track.
 
If there is enough depth with other mechanics, there doesn't need to be a complex pressurization mechanic. Space Engineers has complex mechanics, and no more than 4 people can play on a server without it being basically unplayable (in before "its cuz of bad netcode"). The more needlessly complex mechanica a game has, the more it detracts from the primary gameplay mechanics.
 
Like "sorry the contract and economy systems don't work at all, but this air pressure mechanic is great right" is not what we want to hear.
 
This is an MMO not a survival game, and air pressure sounds like a survival game mechanic. It would be a really neat survival game mechanic, which is why its complex in Space Engineers, because that is a survival game.

are you gonna keep making polls until you get desired result, agreeing with your opinion ?

I love the way people throw out the term "Pay to win" to try and support their point of view or opinion. Then throw out the label "Carebear" if you do not agree.
 
Anyway, I voted I agree with them not being lootable. Because there is no safe way to keep them once purchased if they were physical. That scenario only helps bandits, not everyone, therefore making them  "Pay to win" if they're physical, by benefiting one set of playerbase  O.O   and if you don't agree , you're a carebear   
 
 
lol, thanks

Now that I know what DACs are, I can say the OP is being silly.
 
Game subscription tokens are a great idea. If someone has money but lacks time, he can buy and sell DACs to skip over some of the play that's less interesting to him. And someone who has more time than money, can do the work and buy DACs for game access.
 
It's a choice of pay to play or work to play - it's not pay to win.

Also, a great deal of these market manipulation aruments are under the assumption that players with DAC will simply try to play the market with them, or will trade DAC for in-game currency as a middle man to get some other service with in-game currency.
 
Anyone that works in business understands that since each trader is attempting to profit, the more steps involved in trading for your material, the less profitable it will be unless you intend to travel (which will be risky as soon as the DAC's will be offloaded in a DAC unlootable economy).
 
The smartest players will create contracts to trade DAC's for either finished goods, refined materials, or whatever service they actually want. Players that need subscriptions to keep playing will produce what is needed to fulfill the contract, and the DAC's will be in and out of the system free of price manipulation. Orgs do this internally to keep their lower rank players playing in their org: a highschooler spending 3 hours mining iron for a DAC is a fantastic deal for them, since they get another month to do whatever. Someone who works full time trading a DAC for 3 hours of in game work that they don't enjoy is a steal, since they make more at their job than that DAC is worth.
 
The only people who should be actually worried about unlooyable DAC's are people who want the satesfaction of literally robbing players. Be it a roleplay choice not to work for an org, or because the player just wants another way to be a jerk on the internet, that is what it boils down to.

Also, a great deal of these market manipulation aruments are under the assumption that players with DAC will simply try to play the market with them, or will trade DAC for in-game currency as a middle man to get some other service with in-game currency.
 
Anyone that works in business understands that since each trader is attempting to profit, the more steps involved in trading for your material, the less profitable it will be unless you intend to travel (which will be risky as soon as the DAC's will be offloaded in a DAC unlootable economy).
 
The smartest players will create contracts to trade DAC's for either finished goods, refined materials, or whatever service they actually want. Players that need subscriptions to keep playing will produce what is needed to fulfill the contract, and the DAC's will be in and out of the system free of price manipulation. Orgs do this internally to keep their lower rank players playing in their org: a highschooler spending 3 hours mining iron for a DAC is a fantastic deal for them, since they get another month to do whatever. Someone who works full time trading a DAC for 3 hours of in game work that they don't enjoy is a steal, since they make more at their job than that DAC is worth.
 
The only people who should be actually worried about unlooyable DAC's are people who want the satesfaction of literally robbing players. Be it a roleplay choice not to work for an org, or because the player just wants another way to be a jerk on the internet, that is what it boils down to.

Just consider the consequences of day 1, when 20% of the player base starts with 6-20 months worth of DAC's that they cannot protect. The most involved members of the community, who's kickstarter usernames are public and probably their ingame usernames, can be targeted harassed and hunted down for a chunk of their kickstarter pledges. That seems ridiculous right? Hence the distinction.
 
I just don't understand why being able to steal DAC's is so important. A player can inject DAC's into the economy for goods and services, and you can undo their work and steal their goods. Isn't that equivalent? Is that not good enough? If the answer is no, wouldn't it just boil down to wanting to be able to digitally steal someone's wallet? (kek that's too bad not going to happen).
 
Lets imagine a world where you can't steal DAC's (you know, the world as it's currently going to be)
Lets say at month 6, Territory Units are in high demand and are very resource intensive to build (TU's). These are physical elements that can be built, bought, sold, transported, stolen, destroyed etc. We reach a point that there are enough DAC's in the market that people are willing to trade DAC's for TU's. They are each worth roughly the same spacebux, another currency that can be stolen, destroyed, etc, and they have been equivalent for about a month and are likely to stay equivalent for a while.
 
Why isn't stealing a TU enough? You can turn around and trade it for a DAC. The guy you stole it from traded a DAC for it in the first place. Sure, the demand for TU's could go down, or the supply could increase and hurt it's price, but its the same for DACs. The only real division between stealing DAC's vs TU's in this scenario is that one has an IRL dollar value.
 
So is this boiling down to you guys wanting to be able to really mug people in a video game? That's how it seems

Wait, this isn't a joke? you are actually suggesting this?

*heavy breathing* oh man, I'm don gun' stuck in the US of A, wish I could have been there!
 
So did anybody steal some DAC's during the test
 
How did the building process feel, did everything seem to work the way you expected it to? Did you see people slap comical numbers of engines or other essential parts onto ships to see how they reacted?

I'm seeing what I can do as far as facebook friends and tumblr followers go!

no seriously guys, spaceships wont be premade fully scripted meshes, and most of it, you ll be living inside
 
so if you are happy with a sspaceship built in minecraft, and have enough time and imagination to animate it with your own dreams, thats good for you, then go back on  minecraft right now
 
and dont reply to a pre alpha game mechanic topic if your dont understand what pre alpha or mechanic means

In terms of scale for C-Y space and the K-packs:
 
Calabi-Yau is theorized as beginning to occur at perhaps 1/1000000000000000 of a meter.
 
Atomic scale is matter is composed of atoms, and the distances of the pieces of the atoms exist at 10^15 meters. That is 0.000000000000001 meters. Atomic scale fits in C-Y space.
 
If we take a person to be on the average 1 and a half to 2 and a half meters tall – we consider the Calabi-Yau distances to be about 2 million million million times smaller than a human.
 
So what the tech likely does is deconstruct matter at the atomic level, then stores that mass in the C-Y space. The Blueprint attached to the tech can then reassemble the resultant stored masses/atoms (of the correct type) back into the right material.
 
You may find that storage of actual items is out of scope and you cannot carry a "ship" in your pocket, only all the required materials which the "voxel gun" (or whatever the build tool will be called) then spits out according to blueprints. It would, from a certain perspective, appear that you are "unstoring and object".

Hey there, community, here's what I got from asking questions at the meeting and playing the pre-alpha build. I will make no paragraph but only points as it is LONG, there's a lot, and even more questions than I had before then.
 
 
 
Creation / Exploration  
 
NPCs : there will be some at the beginning of the game (where everyone spawn) showing you how to use your powers (creation suit), how the economy works, and everything that will be added like for example the 3D map  
Ship creation: we have created our ship (little, single place ship) ourselves. What's needed: - a cubic unit you can make spawn that is the centre of the ship's creation (has to be one of the most expensive item) that allows one construction to be movable. (I don't remember the name of the unit)
- a cockpit
- structure (metal) you can make spawn by voxel (you know, the video)
- reactor(s) :
hover to use the vehicle on earth and hover close to the ground real reactors placed besides a plane object (for those we used), so that the reactors were on each of the ship's sides - a gyroscope unit (1/20th maybe the size of the cube needed imagine a cube like in minecraft but half the size) that points the way the cockpit is
- one rule : all of the component linked with direct or indirect contact with the make-structure-movable unit (cube)
- one other rule (not in the pre alpha) : physically it has to be possible regarding the size and so mass of the thing and also balance and aerodynamic proof of the ship
- Blueprints : you will have the possibility to get blueprints out of the ship you created with the prefabs, to manufacture it. You will have the ability to create (for advanced users it seems) more difficult objects and get a blueprint out of it (like a specific cockpit), though I'm not sure that last thing will ever be possible, it will bring the game to a realm of creation not even expected.
 
Buildings : same as ships without the mythic cube. Though you cannot make a ship out of earth, maybe you can do this with buildings or at least with hobbit-like holes... Massive ships or structures into space: - instead of a cockpit you have a control centre were you can command the ship if it is one, know where enemies or outside units are (radar-like)
- they talked about a drone you could throw out of the ship to make circle around the big structure and know what is outside in the command centre (with non-moving space buildings)
 Conquest : flag-like (as an idea it was said to me like that but well... You know a flag in a future universe is weird) anyway the idea is this one. You conquer, you put your mark, you deploy shields (let's say force shields like a bubble or between a gate), well at least buildings (and guys to protect) and that's all, it's like IRL  
Others: - Jet packs (for creation): there will be (I don't know for the fuel) only to construct things, I heard about using it only for this but not to travel, and with energy supply to recharge maybe...
- Painting ? It will be possible to do it at close range, though the build we tested was not capable of that
- Map : there will be one, a 3D one maybe, probably not in the pre-alpha as you can play without it to help debug the game (alpha is for that, don't expect to get pure pleasure, it's to test the game and help it being debugged)
 
 
 
Servers, players creations' economy  
Cluster servers The server as in game when it will be released as alpha were not used (I believe) when we played pre-alpha. We were basically using a small on-the-go server. So of course it looked like a pre-alpha build, the one they are using to work on as they say. See the videos on you-tube (Dual Universe channel) for more information on how the cluster server works: it's one server for all that charges round your player's location.
 
Scripting and blueprint economy Still a good question. The problem is the server allowance and processing duration. It will be impossible to have all your scripts into the server to sell them, and there is still the problem about the security. We had a big talk about it, like we thought of common scripts within a same group or society that still runs if someone is connected (this will be possible), but to sell a script without the buyer that uses it reads it... it's something else. Also how much scripts are being used at the same time (I mean for robots you make out) is a deal and one of the biggest challenge of all we came into in our discussions.
 
 
 
Environment  
Destroyable environment, the idea to find raw material being used then for ships is to have tools to scan where riches are. Day/Night system (possibilities): - Fake-sun (unreachable, that is a sunlight seen as coming from the sun) projecting realistically the light by moving on an axis : it's the one we saw being moved in god-mode, into a giant planet's ground. It seemed rather satisfying to see.
- fixed sun(s), planets rotating on themselves
 
Water, fluids? No water, it won't be in the alpha nor the beta (as far as I know), and most probably won't be in the final game (Dec. 2018). What is sure is that fluids spawning and fluids manipulating at hand won't be possible to make and won't be at release it's sure. But (I didn't ask), still water why not (I don't talk about lands under water yet or anything under water), you'd be falling and dying probably. Swimming, I don't know as for sea ships.. Still conceivable but it won't be in any beta. The idea is: no liquids, anyway the game will still be OK and hard to handle (I mean you will get busy by playing it) just by exploring, making business, a new society, war...
 
 
Questions in suspend For now the gravitation operated in the universe is still not a question developed within the team, or anyway I have not asked to the team directly (one might confirm me that). So the planet acceleration should be (at first) the same with no mind to their mass.
One point though considering the size of planets and what it results (you know, the smaller the planet is, the thinner and lower the atmosphere is, due to the gravity): to get out of the atmosphere, you can accelerate with your ship with one kind of gas (used within an atmosphere), and you use another type of combustion when into the void (turns automatically). So basically, the atmosphere seems (I haven't checked, sorry, not the time to do two lifts-off, and I would have had to count the seconds for that over all) graphically to be proportional to the size of the planet (anyway I don't consider mass). This is not a big problem here, I just want to expose anything I understood or schemed in my head.
Concerning weapons and combats system, we could access such things in the pre-alpha, but the team said there will be weapons (at least on the ships) and shields to counter (ships and buildings).
I haven't asked for the in-game "hacking a territory base" system as it was exposed in the kick-starter video, but it's still an idea.
 
 
All in all, we could see creation (god mode, for developers) and exploration by spaceship (the cabin already looks good btw).
Thanks for reading.

I'm willing to bet that Governments will simply be a kind of ORG. I don't think that players will have the ability to create ark ship style safezones using Territory units. The ORG itself would likely determine what is and is not permitted, manage mining, building, and editing rights in that area, but probably won't have the ability to prevent PVP.
 
Instead an ORG might set up laws governing the zones that are a part of the territory, and might have to use scripts to implement punishments. The EMPIRE org might have a script running in their territories that automatically puts a bounty on anyone that attacks and/or kills someone in their territory that expires after an hour (except of course, people who have that kind of bounty on them). Provided the ORG has sufficient funds to pay, it turns anyone nearby into potential law enforcement.
 
We don't really know the specifics of how laws and TU's work, but I'm willing to bet that Governments will simply be a kind of Org

There is a good chance the devs already have a vision for this, but nothing ironed out. Sounds like a mechanic that will firm up tail end if alpha or start of beta

This seems like too many actions for unrelated parties to be responsible for. If you have a quest system that relies on many other people to take actions to ensure that you got paid, who is going to want to be responsible for all of that? What happens when those people suddenly stop caring?
 
Great job! You spent a month building the space lazer for the death star! Too bad Janet in Accounting has to sign off on your check, because she doesn't play anymore! Oh and the player you listed as a witness got the request added to his action list, but he doesn't check his email, you you aren't getting paid!
 
That would happen ALL THE TIME, often enough for players to abandon that kind of contract system. How many people started avoiding Preston in Fallout 4?
 
Just let the game handle the contract system, and work within it to improve it. If in its fully developed state there are jobs that simply don't fit in the scope of the contract system, you can always do handshake deals (about as emmersive as it gets).

The reality is there will either be an in-game contract mechanic that is enforced, or the system will break down.
 
Anybody here play rust? You know how well alliances and shops work there? Answer is really really poorly. The kinds if players that like that system and will continue to want to play it are the ones that WILL ABUSE it. If you want to play in a world where orders and contracts actually get filled, there will NEED to be a mechanic that enforces it.
 
Probably it'll work as such: there is something like a contract builder. You specify the reward and quantity, where the reward physically is, and the contract holds it until the contract either expires or is filled. You specify the conditions for success, any collateral for accepting the contract (the cost for loosing a shipment for example), and once a contract is accepted, the game itself would track success, failure, and payment. Much like the way the devbog discussed how remote purchases work, the contractor might have to physically go pick up the reward if it isn't liquid cash.
 
Eve has such a contract system, and given that this game conceptually borrows a great deal form eve, we can expect something similar here.

I'm against lootable DACs.  I DO believe the main reason they are in game is to give folks who can't afford to subscribe, a way to still be able to earn their game time. There really isn't a better reason to implement them.
 
Now don't get me wrong.  I"m not some "make it all safe candy land player".  I'm all for looting.  I'll take your resources, your ship, your house...whatever.  But I don't want to take real money from folks who can't afford to play in the first place.  How awful would that be if it happened to you?   Not only did you get ganked, now you cant even login to try to salvage some of what you lost in the first place! 
 
IMO, as long as a DAC is still a DAC it should not lootable.  As soon as it's cashed in and used to purchase something in the game, then THAT is what you loot; whatever they bought with it.  Otherwise, you WILL be stealing someone's game time.  And I just don't want people to be able to do that. 
 
I know a lot of folks take games so seriously that they want to only take game-play into account "for the success of the game" and all that.  But in the end, to me, it's just a game.  And I want everyone who wants to play it to be able to.  Makes it more fun for the rest of us.  If we allow some folks to steal other people's real money - no matter what kind of label you want to put on it -  it's only going to run folks off who would otherwise be playing the game.   It makes makes no sense and goes against the spirit of the type of gamers I like to play with. 
 
So, my vote is to just wait until someone cashes one in and then steal what they bought, if you must.  Otherwise, let players keep their RL money...sheesh!

Just consider the consequences of day 1, when 20% of the player base starts with 6-20 months worth of DAC's that they cannot protect. The most involved members of the community, who's kickstarter usernames are public and probably their ingame usernames, can be targeted harassed and hunted down for a chunk of their kickstarter pledges. That seems ridiculous right? Hence the distinction.
 
I just don't understand why being able to steal DAC's is so important. A player can inject DAC's into the economy for goods and services, and you can undo their work and steal their goods. Isn't that equivalent? Is that not good enough? If the answer is no, wouldn't it just boil down to wanting to be able to digitally steal someone's wallet? (kek that's too bad not going to happen).
 
Lets imagine a world where you can't steal DAC's (you know, the world as it's currently going to be)
Lets say at month 6, Territory Units are in high demand and are very resource intensive to build (TU's). These are physical elements that can be built, bought, sold, transported, stolen, destroyed etc. We reach a point that there are enough DAC's in the market that people are willing to trade DAC's for TU's. They are each worth roughly the same spacebux, another currency that can be stolen, destroyed, etc, and they have been equivalent for about a month and are likely to stay equivalent for a while.
 
Why isn't stealing a TU enough? You can turn around and trade it for a DAC. The guy you stole it from traded a DAC for it in the first place. Sure, the demand for TU's could go down, or the supply could increase and hurt it's price, but its the same for DACs. The only real division between stealing DAC's vs TU's in this scenario is that one has an IRL dollar value.
 
So is this boiling down to you guys wanting to be able to really mug people in a video game? That's how it seems

I'm still not sure I understand how DACs being lootable turn DACs into less of a pay-to-win mechanic than when they are purely digital.
 
Even more importantly, after three pages of discussion, actually I still don't see how DACs are pay-to-win either way. If I butcher my piggy bank to buy lots of game money I still can't just conjure up an uber weapon of mass destruction.
 
If I want to buy the biggest and baddest battlecruiser ever to gank noobz with my rich parents' money, someone still has to construct that battlecruiser first. Presumably someone who already is at least as powerful as I am as a newcomer with a golden goose next to my computer.
 
And the money I spend isn't just disappearing either. If I pay a million spacebucks to the ship vendor, now the vendor has a million spacebucks. On top of how he probably was already pretty well-off in the first place if he is in the place to sell expensive spaceships.
 
 
I guess my point is, so many people here are acting as if the devs allowed rich people to produce uber weapons out of thin air. But I have a hard time seeing how a newcomer with too much money to spare could just usurp the powers to be and become the next kingpin. Every time they spend money, people around them will profit. And you can still loot, capture or destroy whatever they bought if they don't know what they're doing with it. If they bought expensive materials, you can attack them and snatch all of it. If they buy a big battleship, you can gather your boys to zerg them and show everyone what you think of rich people privilege. And so on.
 
 
It's getting late here in Yurop, sorry if my ramblings are becoming a little incoherent.

At the moment, the flight mechanic is as bare bones as it gets. It's just a test build to see if things work or break at the most basic level. Things like center of mass, thrust to weight ratio, thrust distribution etc does not matter: as long as you slap all the required components on your construct, it will fly. 
 
However, their plan is to make these things matter. If you want your construct to fly properly, you will have to take into account your center of mass and center of thrust, especially for maneuvering thrusters (the farther from the CoM, the better angular torque they will provide). I think this has been stated in one of NQ's video by the way, can't remember which though.
 
What we had on our hands was a dev build, not even an alpha. It's clearly not meant to be representative of what the gameplay is intended to be, so I don't think any of us will be able to provide any valuable input on how the game will eventually play. The basic features are here, but they are extremely simplified just to test stuff.
 
Still, as basic as it was, it's been a great time

I'm pretty sure that somewhere NQ said there's not going to be nukes. (not sure where, sorry) Other kinds of explosives, maybe. I would like to see some kind of infiltrator planting C4 in an enemy's base, that sounds neat. But it would have to be difficult, and the C4 can't be too powerful or else the balance gets skewed.

If I remember correctly, JC said if they did do it would be something really simple like having an atmosphere generator element that projects a sphere of air around it at a fixed distance.
 
Doing the checks to see if a given point is within an enclosed hull is really tricky, although of the bat I can think of some optimization strategies that could make it possible its a really complicated system that does not add much value to the game.