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Question number 5 (Dual Universe Explorers - Live Q&A w/ JC Baillie - Novaquark CEO || 09/17/2016) minute 14:45

 

https://youtu.be/H9Y0YmqGYDM?t=887

 

 

Few thoughts and eventual mechanics solutions why air within spaceship would be terribly usefull

 

 

Considering the eventuality of a normal voxel as Data 1 (solid point), void as Data null (inexistant data, uncalculated), and air as Data 0 (existing point but with no interaction)

Building a spaceship would be creating Data 1 point clouds within Data null

 

Air, Data 0, could be spread in a finish construct by the intermediary of a specific element placed within the construct to detect breaches, or enabling voxels building mode on a moving spaceship, from the hypothesis of this topic.

 

 

In terms of gameplay, the element could take the form of a "red alarm light", each could be renameable, be placed on the ceiling or above doors, and be connected to a display screen element in a control room, displaying pressure status of every rooms this elements are placed in.

 

The pressure display screen would allow in real time to know the status of the ship hull, and alert in case of breach during a confrontation or a collision.

A breach isnt a scratch and could involve an opening big enough for undesired infantry within a ship, so why not having by the way the possibility to remotly lock the doors accessing to the room where a breach is.

 

 

In terms of mechanics, each "red alarm light" elements, would on start of the ship, spread within a room, air, Data 0, and calculate the number of points needed to fill the room.

 

A breach could be detected when the ship starts, if the Data 0 point cloud reaches the whole construct virtual volume border, then the alarm triggers and send a signal to the control room display, until it is fixed and reseted.

 

During a confrontation, the alarm would trigger if the calculated Data 0 point clouds is expanding, then the alarm triggers and send a signal to the control room display, until it is fixed and reseted.

 

When alarm triggers, the element would instantly remove the Data 0 point cloud it started to calculate and replace it back with Data Null

 

 

I believe it could be one solution how to introduce air within a spaceship, and 2 possible uses for it

 

But not the only solution for spaceship hull status detection

(that could also be made with only one element, but less precise, displaying a floating mini 3d model of the ship automaticly built at the ship start, and comparing it with the real time voxels volume of the ship)

 

 

EDIT: other uses for air condition in space ships

- breathable environment (the need of air in the gameplay, difference for players between void and air)

- biomes, and future potential emplementation of farming/planting abilities

- gravity (affecting air environment but not void ones)

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As far as I know, pressurization/vacuum may not be a mechanic that will be a part of the game. So far we only have characters with their space helmates on, and as far as I know there is no way to take it off.

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Pretty sure I read that pressurized environments are chalked up as "would be nice to have, hard to do, might be considered in the distant future".

 

The serverside calculations required would be intense in our rather fine-grained voxel-world. Not really feasible for an MMO in this day and age. I'd love if it was otherwise, there could be so many cool features coming along with pressurized interiors vs the vacuum of space, but alas that's just not a realistic goal for this game.

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Who doesn't love getting sucked into space!

 

They could probably have something a bit less complex, simply a division between pressurized and depressurized, and applying a ragdall force in the direction of the breech from pressure -> depressurized especially if suffocation isn't a thing.

 

But this isn't really a physics game, so it might be a comically wacky effect. I'd be game for something like the classic bethesda ragdoll.

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If I remember correctly, JC said if they did do it would be something really simple like having an atmosphere generator element that projects a sphere of air around it at a fixed distance.

 

Doing the checks to see if a given point is within an enclosed hull is really tricky, although of the bat I can think of some optimization strategies that could make it possible its a really complicated system that does not add much value to the game.

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 its a really complicated system that does not add much value to the game.

 

 I would have to respectfully disagree with you that it adds little value. Imagine if you will that you are in a large capital ship v capital ship battle, losing engineers and pilots and all that jazz to the void is a huge deal and forcing your enemy to lose vital crew in such a manner is also a huge deal.

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As far as I know, pressurization/vacuum may not be a mechanic that will be a part of the game. So far we only have characters with their space helmates on, and as far as I know there is no way to take it off.

 

i didnt mentioned air pressure for that use, nothing about breathable air for players, it would be possible in my theory, but would mean that you put one of my mentionned element, in each and every enclosed space of the ship, to recreate a breathable air environment

 

the 2 uses proposed are, hull status and breaches detection, and the eventuality to be able to build on moving physic ship (from the hypothesis of this topic)

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Who doesn't love getting sucked into space!

 

They could probably have something a bit less complex, simply a division between pressurized and depressurized, and applying a ragdall force in the direction of the breech from pressure -> depressurized especially if suffocation isn't a thing.

 

But this isn't really a physics game, so it might be a comically wacky effect. I'd be game for something like the classic bethesda ragdoll.

 

or more hardcore like at the end of Alien trilogy where the etire body of the whitish alien get sucked trhough a tiny hole of a window

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If I remember correctly, JC said if they did do it would be something really simple like having an atmosphere generator element that projects a sphere of air around it at a fixed distance.

 

 

this is a such a simple answer, as we are in 2016, games whith such simple mechanics will be very fast forgotten

 

dont forget that you ll build your ship, and its not a premade mesh with already placed detection elements

 

if your team manage to build a 100m long ship with the control room at the very front, what would help you to know whats happening at the very back?

 

your ship will be your life, DU offers mainly that, and thats what most people looking for

so we should expect more from the dev team to make those ships not empty and full of life and interactions

 

dont care about calculation and servers and blablabla, because you dont know much

just be more demanding in terms of gameplay since we are far from a game right now and the gameplay concepts is all about that forum pre alpha thematic

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They thought about it and CAN'T DO IT. they CAN'T constantly check all voxels from all ships if there is a leak. No. They said it already. You can demand it though, but that would only make you a troll

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this is a such a simple answer, as we are in 2016, games whith such simple mechanics will be very fast forgotten

 

dont forget that you ll build your ship, and its not a premade mesh with already placed detection elements

 

if your team manage to build a 100m long ship with the control room at the very front, what would help you to know whats happening at the very back?

 

your ship will be your life, DU offers mainly that, and thats what most people looking for

so we should expect more from the dev team to make those ships not empty and full of life and interactions

 

dont care about calculation and servers and blablabla, because you dont know much

just be more demanding in terms of gameplay since we are far from a game right now and the gameplay concepts is all about that forum pre alpha thematic

Uuuhhhhhhh huh

 

In the same post you stated that this specific mechanic needs to be complex, while also aknowledging that you don't know how hard it will be to implement and for the server to track.

 

If there is enough depth with other mechanics, there doesn't need to be a complex pressurization mechanic. Space Engineers has complex mechanics, and no more than 4 people can play on a server without it being basically unplayable (in before "its cuz of bad netcode"). The more needlessly complex mechanica a game has, the more it detracts from the primary gameplay mechanics.

 

Like "sorry the contract and economy systems don't work at all, but this air pressure mechanic is great right" is not what we want to hear.

 

This is an MMO not a survival game, and air pressure sounds like a survival game mechanic. It would be a really neat survival game mechanic, which is why its complex in Space Engineers, because that is a survival game.

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Uuuhhhhhhh huh

 

In the same post you stated that this specific mechanic needs to be complex, while also aknowledging that you don't know how hard it will be to implement and for the server to track.

 

If there is enough depth with other mechanics, there doesn't need to be a complex pressurization mechanic. Space Engineers has complex mechanics, and no more than 4 people can play on a server without it being basically unplayable (in before "its cuz of bad netcode"). The more needlessly complex mechanica a game has, the more it detracts from the primary gameplay mechanics.

 

Like "sorry the contract and economy systems don't work at all, but this air pressure mechanic is great right" is not what we want to hear.

 

This is an MMO not a survival game, and air pressure sounds like a survival game mechanic. It would be a really neat survival game mechanic, which is why its complex in Space Engineers, because that is a survival game.

 

just  see further from whats on your nose

project yourself, and imagine a second what will you be and do on those space ships if you dont pilot it

 

and to be honest, read every and each lines of my topic, i dont care about if air is breathable or not, so dont bother make your little noob post

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just  see further from whats on your nose

project yourself, and imagine a second what will you be and do on those space ships if you dont pilot it

 

and to be honest, read every and each lines of my topic, i dont care about if air is breathable or not, so dont bother make your little noob post

what would I do on a ship if I don't pilot it....

 

If I'm just waiting for my ship to reach its destination, I would entertain myself. The game doesn't need to take my full attention all of the time, do we feel the need for a bus to keep us engaged while we are waiting for our stop?

 

In Eve, when you set a course that involved a half dozen jumps through safe space, that is the perfect time to grab a snack or make lunch IRL. You could watch a youtube video, read the news, listen to the radio.

 

Heck you could do the last 3 things listed there in the game potentially. The game doesn't need to force us to do chores and patch leaks to keep us busy while the ship just flies.

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what would I do on a ship if I don't pilot it....

 

If I'm just waiting for my ship to reach its destination, I would entertain myself. The game doesn't need to take my full attention all of the time, do we feel the need for a bus to keep us engaged while we are waiting for our stop?

 

In Eve, when you set a course that involved a half dozen jumps through safe space, that is the perfect time to grab a snack or make lunch IRL. You could watch a youtube video, read the news, listen to the radio.

 

Heck you could do the last 3 things listed there in the game potentially. The game doesn't need to force us to do chores and patch leaks to keep us busy while the ship just flies.

 

so you are satisfied with an EVE like? what dont you just play EVE right now instead of waiting 2 years for an EVE like? 

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what would I do on a ship if I don't pilot it....

 

If I'm just waiting for my ship to reach its destination, I would entertain myself. The game doesn't need to take my full attention all of the time, do we feel the need for a bus to keep us engaged while we are waiting for our stop?

 

In Eve, when you set a course that involved a half dozen jumps through safe space, that is the perfect time to grab a snack or make lunch IRL. You could watch a youtube video, read the news, listen to the radio.

 

Heck you could do the last 3 things listed there in the game potentially. The game doesn't need to force us to do chores and patch leaks to keep us busy while the ship just flies.

Man if I tried to do that in Eve I'd be killed. Auto Pilot is too Slow and there is no such thing as safe space in Eve.

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No offence but it is a game.

Not a real life simulator.

 

I know you can create gameplay around air.

But there is a fine line between fun and frustrating. Good luck looking for that leak on your 2 km long spacestation.

 

As a game DU already plans to offer freedom not experienced on a mmo scale.

There will be limitations. Hard (technical) and soft (time and money) limitations.

 

Just the way it is. :)

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so you are satisfied with an EVE like? what dont you just play EVE right now instead of waiting 2 years for an EVE like? 

Are you so dissatesfied by my response that you wanna code your own game? wanna take 5 years to make a game about plugging air holes?

 

You can trivialize my response if you'd like, but I don't expect there will be long boring flight times in the game. If it turns out that travelling long distances is a dull activity, then freight will be a dull profession (not unlike mining). I simply don't see the problem, and adding a complex mechanic to the game to annoy and inconvenience players seems like a waste.

 

Imagine for a second that in Minecraft they decided that Smelting Ore needed to be an active activity. That you'd have to interact with the furnace every 30 seconds to 2 minutes to keep the fire going. That would annoy the CRAP out of the playerbase, since smelting could be a very passive activity. There is no reward in having to interact with the furnace to keep it going, just a nuisance.

 

They joked about something like that in the fake update where torches would simply go out after a certain period of time. realistic? sure, but not a mechanic that made the game better, it took work to add a feature to the game that simply made it more annoying.

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hey wizardoftrash, i m opening here very crussial playabilities issues for this game:

 

- ability to build on a moving spaceship (do you have any idea how such a thing could be done mechanicaly talking?)

- ship status (health of the ship, detection of breaches)

 

you should go back on pokemon forum if you think things are made by magic

+ not everyone have time to watch flies during 6h, and switching to youtube to make yourself busy while waiting

 

most people have work, get home around 8pm and get up at 6 or 7am, are you aware of that?

 

so try be more constructive next time

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hey wizardoftrash, i m opening here very crussial playabilities issues for this game:

 

- ability to build on a moving spaceship (do you have any idea how such a thing could be done mechanicaly talking?)

- ship status (health of the ship, detection of breaches)

 

you should go back on pokemon forum if you think things are made by magic

+ not everyone have time to watch flies during 6h, and switching to youtube to make yourself busy while waiting

 

most people have work, get home around 8pm and get up at 6 or 7am, are you aware of that?

 

so try be more constructive next time

 

Thanks for insulting my intelligence again  ;)  really helps your argument. You spent 2/3rds of your response dissing me.

 

Since we are talking about an MMO here we'll have to get real for a second. Lets say I'm in a ship, and it is under attack. How exactly is that damage going to be scored? You are assuming parts of the ship get damaged and destroyed creating holes. Since this is an MMO, I'll let you in on a little secret: things will probably have health bars.

 

Damage to a ship =/= hull breeches

 

The most likely scenario here is that the construct as a whole will have an overall health bar (possibly determined by what material it is, its size, its overall mass, etc), each of the constructs elements will have their own health bars (for attacking specific systems). When an element gets damaged, it needs to be fixed, if destroyed, possibly replaced. You might have to stop or land to make this happen depending on the building restrictions they put into the game. If the ships main structure (overall health bar) gets damaged, it needs to be repaired, if it is depleted, it is probably destroyed.

 

Will there be voxel deformation? possibly as an effect to show how damaged an element is or how damaged the ship is, but the bullets won't be punching actual holes in your digital ship. It likely is not realistic for a game built for large numbers of simultaneous players to track functional voxel damage.

 

TLDR: Get ready to be dissapointed, because you may have put your expectations in the wrong place.

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Thanks for insulting my intelligence again  ;)  really helps your argument. You spent 2/3rds of your response dissing me.

 

Since we are talking about an MMO here we'll have to get real for a second. Lets say I'm in a ship, and it is under attack. How exactly is that damage going to be scored? You are assuming parts of the ship get damaged and destroyed creating holes. Since this is an MMO, I'll let you in on a little secret: things will probably have health bars.

 

Damage to a ship =/= hull breeches

 

The most likely scenario here is that the construct as a whole will have an overall health bar (possibly determined by what material it is, its size, its overall mass, etc), each of the constructs elements will have their own health bars (for attacking specific systems). When an element gets damaged, it needs to be fixed, if destroyed, possibly replaced. You might have to stop or land to make this happen depending on the building restrictions they put into the game. If the ships main structure (overall health bar) gets damaged, it needs to be repaired, if it is depleted, it is probably destroyed.

 

Will there be voxel deformation? possibly as an effect to show how damaged an element is or how damaged the ship is, but the bullets won't be punching actual holes in your digital ship. It likely is not realistic for a game built for large numbers of simultaneous players to track functional voxel damage.

 

TLDR: Get ready to be dissapointed, because you may have put your expectations in the wrong place.

 

 

how do you think in term of "mechanics" your overall health bar could be coded?

 

to remind you, ships will be fully built out of voxels, none of them will be scripted, have any feeling or sensitivity or transmit any information to any other voxel or elements

 

you are depth sitting high on a branch of a tree watching the stars while a lumberjack is cutting off that same tree

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you are depth sitting high on a branch of a tree watching the stars while a lumberjack is cutting off that same tree

ok who laced my coffee with hallucinogens B)  

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no seriously guys, spaceships wont be premade fully scripted meshes, and most of it, you ll be living inside

 

so if you are happy with a sspaceship built in minecraft, and have enough time and imagination to animate it with your own dreams, thats good for you, then go back on  minecraft right now

 

and dont reply to a pre alpha game mechanic topic if your dont understand what pre alpha or mechanic means

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no seriously guys, spaceships wont be premade fully scripted meshes, and most of it, you ll be living inside

 

so if you are happy with a sspaceship built in minecraft, and have enough time and imagination to animate it with your own dreams, thats good for you, then go back on  minecraft right now

 

and dont reply to a pre alpha game mechanic topic if your dont understand what pre alpha or mechanic means

Fwief, ok now I know for sure you are just trolling me  :lol: had me confused for a bit

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Popcorn, anyone?

 

Yes please.

giphy.gif

 

After what I've seen in Space Engineers, I would rather this be placed at the bottom of the "would be nice" list. As this is more survival oriented, it doesn't quite belong here. NQ has said they are planning on some survival elements, but if it involves oxygen, I would think that it would come in form of oxy bottles in your inventory. Which is what SE uses if you do not enable "airtightness."

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