CousinSal

This new system is cumbersome, tedious, inefficient, and "not fun". It's absolutely gut wrenching how bad industry is wrecked. It's also very expensive if you can't sell your products chaining up the schematic tree to make an element.  This is so, so bad.  I just want to throw in the towel, but not sure if my corp will come back.  If they wipe and take all the skill points with...there ...literally is no point to play. 

.23 wasn't really a big deal after schematic prices were lowered, if that's all it takes to lose you interest in the game then don't bother. Even if .23 never happened, people would've gotten bored with everything else and left. There still lacks an incentive to stay in the long term, other than the creative building part

This reply got lost in translation I think. I'm not understanding what you are trying to say here, but again...you're making assumptions that I feel a certain way when I don't.
 
Nothing "triggered my discontent" and seeing as how you don't know me at all, it's weird to make any assumptions about how I feel.
 
I've explained what I think about these changes. Any other presumptions about my state of mind are irrelevant, baseless, and live only in your imagination.
 
If you have something to say about the reasoning I've presented, great.
Otherwise, the way I feel is both none of your business and entirely outside your ability to know or speculate about. If I feel a certain way, I will let you know. Otherwise, don't make assumptions for me or for other players. 
 
Not saying this is the case, but these sort of assumptions undermine any argument you make because it makes it seem like you can't articulate a reply based on reason and are instead trying to frame my stance as being unreasonable or emotional. 

I agree 100%. 
 
People do realize that they labelled alien cores as "Space Territory Warfare", right? That's the only version of "territory war" there is.
 
They spawn these as they do for a reason....they don't want people PvPing all the time any place they want...they effectively want to instance that traffic by separating it. 
 
In other words, their single shard implementation doesn't scale as they'd like, which we all know is the case because they've been very clear that the last few updates are cost-driven. 
 
Like....the game can't even scale with the number of players and limited features it has now, this idea that atmo PvP, AvA, etc. will ever arrive is just....well, I wish I had that sort of optimism, I guess? 

After having played around with this a bit, the changes feel very .. off
 
It feels like this wil actually benefit small scale DIY style industry, something NQ claimed it's supposed to "prevent". The way this is balanced is completely not geared towards having industry being specialised and intended to drive the economy/markets. It is pretty much "spend a few days 'researching' schematics and then build your own stuff anyway"

I also do not buy the reasoning NQ gives us that this is because people were complaining about the changes made in 0.23 as NQ already addressed that by overcompensating prices for schematics downwards. People kept calling out 0.23 because it was a moment where NQ made a massive mistake, and they paid the price in losing a huge number of the player base. 
 
This change just feels out of place in DU because it is essentially a partial copy of the way blueprints are handled in EVE but the rest of the industry system is entirely different, so it really is like NQ is hammering a cube through a triangle shaped hole here.
 
Just like the forced and illogical choices made to limit construct max speeds, this is overthinking and missing the actual point while easier and better solutions are very easy to see (as has been presented in this thread by several different people as alternatives). I do feel that the pattern that is emerging is that some in NQ have design idea which do not fit the overal vision of the game itself and are driven by motivation other than making the game more playable/enjoyable. The reasoning and explanation NQ is giving us for these changes just do not match up with how it plays out.
 
 
It all makes the game feel very grindy and bland, not helped by the still terrible UI/UX design. This is not doing DU any favors.

Say what you will about Star Citizen, but you gotta respect them for correctly classifying their game, and treating it as an alpha with regular wipes and doing what they can to develop their game.

Say what you will about Star Citizen, but you gotta respect them for correctly classifying their game, and treating it as an alpha with regular wipes and doing what they can to develop their game.

Even Star Citizen knows how to keep their players informed of pending wipes. 
 
heck they are looking two wipes ahead. 
 
they are also in Alpha, just like DU claims it isn’t. 
 
 

Pretending that NQ will finish features that are far beyond their reach as of today is equally constructive... 🤷‍♂️
 
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post about piracy, that's definitely very possible...but it sounded to me like you were explaining a state of balance that exists only in the future and depends on features that aren't even planned.
 
I don't view that as constructive because release is coming up soon...and players will judge the state of balance as it exists today, not based on x, y, and z feature that may never materialize. 
 
Experience does matter when trying to speculate about the state of the game and its abilities, especially when there's so little information from the studio itself. 

This display of time needs to change. It's a ROUNDED value, so sometimes you can add/remove runs without changing the time. Make it stop rounding, preferably client time and date when the run is finished.

I have a lot of stuff that I want to say about this change, but Deckard has straight up said, that if we only say negative things, we will just be ignored. I'm sorry that I do not see any redeeming qualities in this update. Apparently that makes my opinion null and void.

Regardless of server load/balancing issues being uses as an excuse for changes, the main problem still remains.
There is hardly any fun way to make quanta in this game. Everything is a chore. Mining is a chore, missions is a chore, industry has been turned into a chore.. and so on. So unlike when grinding in other MMO's, there is no sense of achievement or progression. Just mindless tedium repeating the same tasks over and over. And that is just bad game design, no matter how you look at it.

And yet 2 or 3 hunters in our organization must have killed a hundred mission transport ships.
(proof SNS JUNKYARD)
But the game does not boil down to an interaction between a pirate and his victim.
The objective is nevertheless much broader at the community level.
When the influential organizations can take complete possession of a planet (as the game has promised since the kickstarter phases) then we will be in another level of play.
Carriers who complain about pirates will become on the wrong side of the law and will be treated like smugglers

But the really important question is why on earth does one poster here always insist on posting in bright green?

No, they rolled out schematics 1.5 years ago.
 
This idea that they "don't have the time" to fix a core mechanic that they've apparently known was broken for over a year and a half is just silly. 
 
This argument that NQ is constantly out of time is completely nonsense...compared to any other studio of similar size, a year and a half to make a rudimentary, simple change like this would be unthinkable. 
 
They're out of time either because the game doesn't have solid engineering and every tiny little change therefore takes an eternity, or because they have so few people working on DU (NQ is very clear that DU isn't their only project) it only has the bare minimum of development resources. 
 
 
They really didn't "spend a lot of dev time" on this. They refactored it away without any intermediate changes. No one forced them to bury ore so deep, and they never tried less performance-demanding techniques (of which there are many). 
 
Again, this plays into their love of false dichotomy: "we had to remove ore because it required too much infra" as if the only two options are "unsustainable" or "auto-miner" -- and that's not the case. 
 
Besides, the way professionals make software is to design and test for scale before you're months away from release...especially as an MMO, it's really puzzling that NQ keeps saying they are out of time as if they had no opportunity in the last 6+ years to understand how their design would scale.  

same overcomplicated ill advised changes from the same inexperienced dev crew......launch will be a flippin fiasco.
who was the idiot that didn't see copy batch size was important.........and copy times are ludicrous need to cut that by 50%......heads need to roll and you need experienced with mmo personnelle
 
vote with your wallet
 
let them deal with the stupidity they've
deployed

If all you want is specialization from players, the actual simple solution to the problem is limiting the amount of factory units a player can own.
 
You can also limit the amount of factory units an org can own. And there you have it, the net effect is that organizations are now forced to specialize as well.

I realize this is heavy handed and ultimately you'll need to undo so many things you've already done, but that seems simple enough.

One may say that this gives power to people who have a bunch of alts. Well... we're already there, have been since before beta started. The whole talent system encourages that so there's more to be concerned about here.

Simple solution but effective, and there's so little to do in order to implement it (other than... undoing what has already been done of course).
 
Proposed numbers:
 
Each account has a max limit of 20 or 25 factory units. This is not a lot of factory units. It will force specialization just like you want it to without cumbersome and awfully tedious mechanics.
 
If an account is in an org, that account adds 8-10 factory units to the org limit. An account can create factory units under the org or under their own account and share their units with the org. The idea here is to have a push and pull between accounts contributing to the org pool but not excessively, they still will likely sacrifice their own account unit limit for the org. This will prevent orgs being bloated with big factory unit pools and it will also force orgs to specialize.
 
All in all, schematics don't make sense, They break immersion quite heavily (why would you buy them when it would be more practical to clone them... why is there only one schem for one production unit, etc...). They add immense tedium. They just don't make much sense on so many levels. You'd be better off with just limiting factory units per account.

I guess I was wrong ...
 
After setting up 10 alts using summer DAC, teleporting them to my base and giving them 10 million each, they are now all copying schematics to the effect that in 4 days I can build _anything_ ..
 
No need to travel, no load on the servers, no need to interact with anyone and no hassle.. just wait 4 days and we're golden..
 
 
I guess we're all wrong and this masterful rework by NQ is working as intended /s

Oh, I agree entirely that NQ is just copying the "top level" of the mechanic and ignores all the underlying ones that feed into it and actually make it functional.
 
And this one is no different ..

A good example of early feedback on this I found is HERE  and the same applies for this change too.. I did actually post on that several times, with some detailed feedback and suggestions.. which is obviously ignored as NQ may ask for feedback, but does not really care for it as they just ignore it anyway.

This schematic change is uniquely making me angry, even more than patch 0.23.
Yeh, nice that parts don't require schematics, but the mere 5 copying slots and the horrendous copying times take the fun out of it for me. I'm solo player with a 7.5K elements factory and I feel like I'm being punished for my gameplay.
I've spent dozens of millions of talent points on indy+crafting efficiency just to get smacked in the head by this annoying time sink to decrease my "talents" in time.
There is no "fun" value added, only more chores and waiting times.
- every done copy in a batch should be made available at once, not as a whole batch at the end (abandon this "batch" mechanic)
- waiting for 10 hours for a T4 product schematic batch is just painful
- 5 slots is a joke (UI wise, doesn't even fit on a single screen for me)
- don't make us require more talents, the overall talents "pool" is overblown already as it is
Really hoping for fast improvements to this. Motivation to play is gone.
 
 
 

There's no other place to go to read statement's from NQ's leadership or learn about the company's objectives...
 
As for it all being fabricated for marketing hype...well, name one concept in DU that isn't stretched to the point of dishonesty for marketing hype  
 
Besides, the way that NQ's leadership is presenting the company is very relevant -- it shows that their focus isn't really in finishing this game to the best of their ability...it's in trying to lob a bunch of buzzwords at the ether in desperate hopes of an acquisition or investor. In other words, they can't stand on their own and they know DU isn't going to make the company solvent. 
 
That matters...it means they are likely all-in on these "other projects" and only giving DU the bare minimum to push it to release. 
 
Finally...there's reasons to believe the CEO when they post about how great web3/crypto/metaverse is -- there's every indication that they were all aboard that bandwagon well before they started at NQ.
 
Their efforts here go beyond just some lazy hype/buzzwords. They've presented at conferences, are lobbying the french government about crypto and blockchain, and they were executive producer for Ghost Recon's infamous "Breakpoint" title, which included NFTs (recently it was announced that Ghost Recon would phase out these NFTs because no one used them, lol).  

I think I explained why you are wrong pretty clearly earlier so not going to repeat that

It's even worse as he is pretty much making claims this is already part of DU, as in comments like how great of an example the DU economy is with regards to blockchain when it has nothing whatsoever to do with it and all it does is show he is angling for buyers with hype words that do not mean a thing.

A major reason for NQ being where it is has been the consistent overpromising and under delivering. And that has not changed at all. They are still trying to sell something they do not have and try to make claims about their project which are simply untrue and easily debunked. 

Which is astounding -- this thread was started on April 14th! Whenever people ask them to address this, they simply ignore it. Over and over and over. After every one of their useless weekly videos that they seem to think counts as "engagement". 
 
It's been about 2 months since they commented on this "ongoing discussion".
 
People make decisions about who to elect as their nation's leader faster than NQ can make a simple choice about their own product. Well...okay, maybe that's a bad example.
 
This isn't wise decision-making or some grand strategy...it's poor business in every dimension:
It's bad PR on top of bad PR, right before release...how do they think the reviews will read?  It's very bad game development...this is the time when the beta is supposed to be its most scaled-out, not the least popular as it is now. Few players means few bug reports means a guaranteed crap release.  It's bad game development (x2) because they keep changing things as they push forward to release. Even a small, small change can destabilize the product at scale. Multiple changes combined with low pops means bad times at scale.   It's bad business strategy...whatever widgets they think they "lose" if people have an early start, it'll be far, far worse with all the above. It serves no purpose other than making people not want to play -- I've yet to hear any cogent business reason to delay even the obligatory "we're still thinking about it" lines of communication, never mind dragging their feet on this in general.  Having learned about their CEO's ongoing obsessions with web3 and the metaverse, it's not really a shock that they are more interested in lofty ideas that have nothing to do with DU (or even reality) vs. actually rolling up their sleeves and doing work. 
 
Prepare for NQ's next project announcement...it'll probably have NFTs and be an even bigger disaster than this mess, because NQ's leadership is just not capable of self-reflection, self-improvement, or self-awareness. 

I've given up thinking about playing after launch; I'm just enjoying doing stuff in the game when I feel like it as I feel like it.
I've given up calibrating my mining units, introducing them was the worst change so far.
If/when the schematics change happens I'll just give up doing anything with industry; I might make some stuff in my nanocrafter if that's still possible but there are so many bad changes/wipes being talked about that I guess I'm in both categories #3 and #4.
 
I shrug and say that I really enjoyed the game before Taxes were introduced because I had "Homes" on every planet and moon and I enjoyed flying around the system, hoping not to be attacked but mostly only carrying T1 ore or the latest furnishings I was adding to my homes so on the occasions I did lose everything, including my ship, I'd just res somewhere, harvest and make a simple ship to get me back to Sanctuary where I could make something better. That was fun so if they are going to take the game away from me with a wipe, I'll just move on and have fun in another game.

I've been screaming this for the 3 months since the wipe talk. I mean WTF? We have to wait 3 damn months (a whole business quarter) to get a decision that effects the player base in such a way that the game is going to die because everyone has left because of indecision.
 
I mean I just found starship evo and it has one guy developing it and it already has everything this game has including better voxel tech with moving parts like hinges and rotation.( land vehicles and mechs)  and you get to scale engines and thrusters to the ship. The map is thousands of systems almost in the vein of elite dangerous. 
 
And it has some pve and has online pvp. Yes it's in VERY EARLY access but it shows how far up their ass these Devs heads are. To have a whole group of Devs that can't beat a one man show. Embarrassing.