michaelk

Back to the original topic, why people are quitting DU. 
 
People like this, frankly. The discussion about PvP becomes instantly aggressive if not hostile. 
 
It isn't about articulating an opinion, it's about insisting over and over and over that the only opinion that matters is their own and that anyone that doesn't understand how important PvP is just needs to "deal with it". I've seen a lot of name calling and ranting without articulating anything of substance beyond a demand for PvP and an insistence that the game will die if their whims aren't met. 
 
I don't really see the point in trying to create a society with people in this demographic. I know there are plenty of PvP players that aren't like this...but there's too many that are. 
 
The PvP mentality seems to extend to every interaction they make with players in any context, and that just isn't fun or interesting for me. 
 

Back to the original topic, why people are quitting DU. 
 
People like this, frankly. The discussion about PvP becomes instantly aggressive if not hostile. 
 
It isn't about articulating an opinion, it's about insisting over and over and over that the only opinion that matters is their own and that anyone that doesn't understand how important PvP is just needs to "deal with it". I've seen a lot of name calling and ranting without articulating anything of substance beyond a demand for PvP and an insistence that the game will die if their whims aren't met. 
 
I don't really see the point in trying to create a society with people in this demographic. I know there are plenty of PvP players that aren't like this...but there's too many that are. 
 
The PvP mentality seems to extend to every interaction they make with players in any context, and that just isn't fun or interesting for me. 
 

Back to the original topic, why people are quitting DU. 
 
People like this, frankly. The discussion about PvP becomes instantly aggressive if not hostile. 
 
It isn't about articulating an opinion, it's about insisting over and over and over that the only opinion that matters is their own and that anyone that doesn't understand how important PvP is just needs to "deal with it". I've seen a lot of name calling and ranting without articulating anything of substance beyond a demand for PvP and an insistence that the game will die if their whims aren't met. 
 
I don't really see the point in trying to create a society with people in this demographic. I know there are plenty of PvP players that aren't like this...but there's too many that are. 
 
The PvP mentality seems to extend to every interaction they make with players in any context, and that just isn't fun or interesting for me. 
 

You make a valid point and I tend to agree with you. I don't know the numbers etc for mincraft as I have never tried it. If that thing still grows then it can be that builders MMO can work - I just never been in such games so have no clue. Isn't Mincraft a shard based thing with wipes and not a fully fledged MMO ? EVE is MMO without wipes etc.

I definitely disagree, and I feel the stats available are fairly clear. 
 
Minecraft is still growing in popularity (24 million copies in a year alone...far more players than DU will attract across its entire lifetime). 
 
In other words, more people bought Minecraft in this last year than have ever signed up for Eve Online, by a massive margin. 
 
Yes, it being in a persistent online context is a very attractive feature for creative players and builders. This idea that a builder game can't be a success because there's just not enough to do or there's not enough interested players is not grounded in any real evidence. 
 
One of the most argued things on this forum is PvP -- if it were really so obvious that a builder MMO is "impossible" or inherently boring, this wouldn't even be a discussion. 
 
It's up to NQ to understand how these demographics work -- and that you aren't going to capture both the hardcore PvP demographic and the creative builder demographic in your first-ever title as a game designer.  
 
This mis-match of genres is a big reason people quit -- we all know there are lots of PvP players and lots of creative players out there....but both living happily in the same game? It's extra complexity that DU just doesn't need on top of its mountain of technical and design debt. 

DU without PVP would have a good chance to succeed.
DU with only PVP would not stand a chance.
 
Both builders and those seeking to focus on combat need to have a place in the game but when it comes down to it, without builders there is nothing to shoot and if we were to believe the most heard arguments from those who want to pewpew, if they do not get access to options to kill those who are non combattant, they would not have a game.
 
Where is the players who understand that if you want to focus on fights, you need to go out and find them, you need to accept that a lot of that will be "by appointment". DU will always see offense be favored over offense for good reason. Without something to defend there is nothing to build an offense against. "PVPers" should realize they are dependent on those who build and create, especially if and when you seem to focus your effort on access to that group of players.
 
It just feel like for many  it's not about the fights, it's about killing and looting someone. You'd probably be better of hanging around nullsec gates in EVE if that is what you are after. DU is not about incidental PVP, it is about players building their communities and in that context interacting with each other, if need be and if all else fails by force. And yes, there will always be those who have a different view and that is fine. But if those groups get the upper hand, the game is doomed as they will just destroy what is there and be left with.. nothing.
 
When the best defense is to directly vector into someone approaching you and see them generally move away as quickly as possible it's obvious that it's not about being part of the game, it's about killing whatever you can without any meaning or purpose to it and running when there is even a chance of losing.
 
DU is not a PVP centric game and I can only hope NQ never gives in to those that seem to think they can make it such as that will IMO certainly have one outcome and that the end of DU.

I definitely disagree, and I feel the stats available are fairly clear. 
 
Minecraft is still growing in popularity (24 million copies in a year alone...far more players than DU will attract across its entire lifetime). 
 
In other words, more people bought Minecraft in this last year than have ever signed up for Eve Online, by a massive margin. 
 
Yes, it being in a persistent online context is a very attractive feature for creative players and builders. This idea that a builder game can't be a success because there's just not enough to do or there's not enough interested players is not grounded in any real evidence. 
 
One of the most argued things on this forum is PvP -- if it were really so obvious that a builder MMO is "impossible" or inherently boring, this wouldn't even be a discussion. 
 
It's up to NQ to understand how these demographics work -- and that you aren't going to capture both the hardcore PvP demographic and the creative builder demographic in your first-ever title as a game designer.  
 
This mis-match of genres is a big reason people quit -- we all know there are lots of PvP players and lots of creative players out there....but both living happily in the same game? It's extra complexity that DU just doesn't need on top of its mountain of technical and design debt. 

I know I already posted once...but also Xsolla. 
 
If NQ had an actual subscription system, maybe they wouldn't need to ask players to dump in a forum because they would have proper exit surveys.
 
If the process to cancel wasn't so scammy and purposefully obfuscated, people would be less angry and provide better feedback. 
 
Asking why people are quitting really shouldn't be an afterthought because you won't get objective, actionable data.
 
It's too easy to dismiss complaints here as "just one opinion" when you don't have real data...devs are human beings that become intensely personally attached to projects, especially after so long. Objective exit survey data might help cut through some of that anxiety.

I know I already posted once...but also Xsolla. 
 
If NQ had an actual subscription system, maybe they wouldn't need to ask players to dump in a forum because they would have proper exit surveys.
 
If the process to cancel wasn't so scammy and purposefully obfuscated, people would be less angry and provide better feedback. 
 
Asking why people are quitting really shouldn't be an afterthought because you won't get objective, actionable data.
 
It's too easy to dismiss complaints here as "just one opinion" when you don't have real data...devs are human beings that become intensely personally attached to projects, especially after so long. Objective exit survey data might help cut through some of that anxiety.

From the client perspective that is a network congestion problem, not a CPU/GPU problem. You could even make the argument that since the game is mostly network bound, cpu and gpu usage should be lower then other games. Ignoring the server load, there is nothing displayed on the client monitor that justifies the CPU/GPU load.

I know I already posted once...but also Xsolla. 
 
If NQ had an actual subscription system, maybe they wouldn't need to ask players to dump in a forum because they would have proper exit surveys.
 
If the process to cancel wasn't so scammy and purposefully obfuscated, people would be less angry and provide better feedback. 
 
Asking why people are quitting really shouldn't be an afterthought because you won't get objective, actionable data.
 
It's too easy to dismiss complaints here as "just one opinion" when you don't have real data...devs are human beings that become intensely personally attached to projects, especially after so long. Objective exit survey data might help cut through some of that anxiety.

Well, I haven't quit yet. But there are two reasons I might
 
1. NQ's complete lack of engagement with players. Used to be I could get help when a bug interfered drastically with game play. That's no longer the case.
 
2. Dumbing down of building. I used to build ships with working airlocks; functional engineering stations; bunks; bathrooms - but now I have to build for unwanted combat encounters. I can't afford to have to replace those things to re-deploy from a BP if I get ambushed. I also can't afford the extra mass that could be allocated to either armor or cargo. So instead of cool, fun spaceships, I'm building easy to replace crap. I don't even use doors on most of them. I no longer use windows.
 
Building isn't much fun any more.
 
Hmmm... I guess there's a third reason.
 
3. Lack of progress in Lua - actually regression in Lua, since we can no longer capture info from radar.
 
My big complaint on this is lack of access to orbital parameters. NQ said back in alpha that we would get this and I've been holding off on adding nav to my script set until with have them (rather than adding ad hoc orbital calculations in Lua that will fail as soon as the next star system is added). I'm assumed the game was calculating orbital parameters in C to draw the trajectory lines - but now that I think of it, if the orbital parameters are not really being calculated, that would explain the apparently unstable orbits.

Good games are easy to learn and difficult to master.
DU is the other way around.
 
The is no real progression:
- mining: it doesn't get more complex / difficult, it' just more of the same
- crafting: it doesn't get more complex / difficult, it' just more of the same (requiring more and more sub components or more time to craft isn't complexity)
- piloting: it's harder to fly/leave/enter on the starting planets (Alioth and Sanctuary) than on all of the other planets.
- building: you can just place elements, voxels are a cosmetic option: there is no structural physics for ships and buildings leading to no real challenge in design.
- building: Voxelmancy is a joke': it's like forcing people to draw circles and curves without giving them a compass and then be amazed of what they have achieved with just a pen and a ruler.
- exploration: there is nothing to explore. The playable universe is simply too small.
- character progression: Talents should be a progression/reward of what you do. You should get better at piloting by piloting. That 'passive learning' system is just 'pay2win" disguised. It's not engaging and it will hurt the game in the long term (It separates too much vets from newbies). It rewards a meta (the longer you sub to the game) not something you do in the game. There is no 'joy' and fulfillment to obtain the highest rank of  a talent (other than having to wait 14 days or more ...).
- repeatability and differentiation: a 'Space Engine L' is always exactly the same whoever made it. There is no differentiation between players, between elements, between raw materials. There is no RNG (warning: too much RNG is very bad but a little might help). There only one way to make one thing. Study the Starwars Galaxy crafting system, there is a lot to be inspired by it (variations in ore specs, experimentation in crafting, etc).
 
What can be done:
- Surrogate is a fresh and new concept for MMOs but it is way underused and too limited. You should be able to 'pilot' with a surrogate and do more, may be have different talents for different surrogates. Leveling surrogates could probably be more fun than leveling a single avatar. Selling/trading surrogates could be fun too and a very new concept in MMOs (some players hate leveling , some love it).
It could be a way to engage in PvP (and the only way imho). See Ender's Game book/movie. Add IA/scripting/autonomy to surrogates ?
- more planets, more systems. it's too small for a 'space' MMO.
- not a  fan of the 'tile' system. I don't see why I couldn't mine everywhere I want nor place a static construct everywhere I want. I don't see the gameplay value of tiles. I'd rather have a 'zone of influence' around big structures (like Guild Halls in SWG (again!)) so Orgs can have big cities without grief.
- forced pvp: not a fan at all. You'll never get a general consensus here. You'll have to choose what part of 'potential mmo players' would have to give up on or split your single shard into 2...study more MMO "player profiles" . NQ clearly lacks knowledge of MMOs game theory and demographics. Don't ignore the silent majority to please a vocal minority or early backers (the person who can spent hundreds of dollars on backing a game isn't necessary the good final target audience for a successful long lasting mmo game).  
 

Reasonable solutions which would really not be that hard to implement have been posted here for many, many weeks if not months. some have been lost because NQ decided to archive the aloha forums (yes, that far back) and others have been ignored. Eventually When there is no way around it, NQ will  bring in some elaborate and over the top "solution" which impact everyone. What should have happened is they should have given this some thought when the markets were split form the districts and a system should have been put in place then to resolve this. 
 
Simple solution would be power management > dynamic constructs require to be flown for power to recharge and so it you leave dynamic construct stationary or do not add engines they decay and should do so fairly quickly with the only alternative being docking it to a static construct you own. If maintenance /upkeep would be required for dynamic constructs to remain active and owned a lot of this junk would go away because effort and investment of time to keep these alive is not what many are looking for.

As others have said, tech issues and tedium (lack of content) are big deals...but I think some users aren't even playing long enough to be bothered by lack of content. 
 
Following DU for years, I tried to get my partner hooked on the game because he loves building games and will spend hours and hours constructing monuments to OCD. ?‍♂️
 
For him, it was presentation and initial UX. 
 
1. Initial impressions are really important...the tutorial was not a great first experience. It bugged out and required him to reset and he got annoyed navigating the starter area and listening to the voice over.
 
2. Initial UX...The UI simply doesn't look like it belongs in a professional game -- it creates a perception that the game is very "indie", as the UI was clearly made by engineers and not designers. It also makes it harder to learn the game -- clunky UI/UX on top of an already complex game. 
 
3. Initial speeder...when he finally got to Sanctuary (I had to help him find the drop ship because of all the market clutter ?) that first speeder visit to unclaimed territory was...not great. The visuals greatly reinforced the idea that this was a niche/indie project and not a "real game". I got him one of the starter flying ships, but still a lot of travel time to get back to his hex because he re-spawned at some point (for some reason ?‍♂️). 
 
4. Initial progression...breaking surface rocks and being told to go back and forth to the (rather far) market didn't help him understand what to do or how to get starting building, especially since the tutorials were very broken back when he started. I tried to help him get started mining but he basically quit after digging a hundred or so meters lol. Mining rocks is monotonous enough without digging through hundreds of meters of flat polygons.  
 
I'd bet a healthy number of those ghost speeders belong to similar players that never truly gave the game a chance because it simply doesn't feel like a professional, modern game should for a paid monthly sub.
 
It is hard to reconcile the promise of a vast space sandbox builder where you can craft and manipulate civilization itself with tutorials not working, simple visuals, and a clunky UX...and all this is just to give the game a chance...never mind some of the content/tech issues that are usually only relevant after you've bought into the premise and played for a bit. 

As others have said, tech issues and tedium (lack of content) are big deals...but I think some users aren't even playing long enough to be bothered by lack of content. 
 
Following DU for years, I tried to get my partner hooked on the game because he loves building games and will spend hours and hours constructing monuments to OCD. ?‍♂️
 
For him, it was presentation and initial UX. 
 
1. Initial impressions are really important...the tutorial was not a great first experience. It bugged out and required him to reset and he got annoyed navigating the starter area and listening to the voice over.
 
2. Initial UX...The UI simply doesn't look like it belongs in a professional game -- it creates a perception that the game is very "indie", as the UI was clearly made by engineers and not designers. It also makes it harder to learn the game -- clunky UI/UX on top of an already complex game. 
 
3. Initial speeder...when he finally got to Sanctuary (I had to help him find the drop ship because of all the market clutter ?) that first speeder visit to unclaimed territory was...not great. The visuals greatly reinforced the idea that this was a niche/indie project and not a "real game". I got him one of the starter flying ships, but still a lot of travel time to get back to his hex because he re-spawned at some point (for some reason ?‍♂️). 
 
4. Initial progression...breaking surface rocks and being told to go back and forth to the (rather far) market didn't help him understand what to do or how to get starting building, especially since the tutorials were very broken back when he started. I tried to help him get started mining but he basically quit after digging a hundred or so meters lol. Mining rocks is monotonous enough without digging through hundreds of meters of flat polygons.  
 
I'd bet a healthy number of those ghost speeders belong to similar players that never truly gave the game a chance because it simply doesn't feel like a professional, modern game should for a paid monthly sub.
 
It is hard to reconcile the promise of a vast space sandbox builder where you can craft and manipulate civilization itself with tutorials not working, simple visuals, and a clunky UX...and all this is just to give the game a chance...never mind some of the content/tech issues that are usually only relevant after you've bought into the premise and played for a bit. 

It'd be nice if someone could summarize anything new or important that came up, because I tuned out after so much time discussing the same topics as other streams. 
 
It's a lot of fantasy talk about things that would be neat and things that "will be fixed"...but there's never any actual details.
 
I don't have any sense for how the game will actually change in the next two or three months...just a random assortment of things that would be neat and bugs that most players already knew about. 
 
I mean, even the streamers were bored. At one point someone asked them to stop interrupting JC and they replied "we don't have the time" lol. They were visibly bored because they've seen this stream before...
 
I appreciate the effort and know that the community can be demanding, but I don't see the point of going on streams to re-hash things that have already been said on the last dozen streams. 

As others have said, tech issues and tedium (lack of content) are big deals...but I think some users aren't even playing long enough to be bothered by lack of content. 
 
Following DU for years, I tried to get my partner hooked on the game because he loves building games and will spend hours and hours constructing monuments to OCD. ?‍♂️
 
For him, it was presentation and initial UX. 
 
1. Initial impressions are really important...the tutorial was not a great first experience. It bugged out and required him to reset and he got annoyed navigating the starter area and listening to the voice over.
 
2. Initial UX...The UI simply doesn't look like it belongs in a professional game -- it creates a perception that the game is very "indie", as the UI was clearly made by engineers and not designers. It also makes it harder to learn the game -- clunky UI/UX on top of an already complex game. 
 
3. Initial speeder...when he finally got to Sanctuary (I had to help him find the drop ship because of all the market clutter ?) that first speeder visit to unclaimed territory was...not great. The visuals greatly reinforced the idea that this was a niche/indie project and not a "real game". I got him one of the starter flying ships, but still a lot of travel time to get back to his hex because he re-spawned at some point (for some reason ?‍♂️). 
 
4. Initial progression...breaking surface rocks and being told to go back and forth to the (rather far) market didn't help him understand what to do or how to get starting building, especially since the tutorials were very broken back when he started. I tried to help him get started mining but he basically quit after digging a hundred or so meters lol. Mining rocks is monotonous enough without digging through hundreds of meters of flat polygons.  
 
I'd bet a healthy number of those ghost speeders belong to similar players that never truly gave the game a chance because it simply doesn't feel like a professional, modern game should for a paid monthly sub.
 
It is hard to reconcile the promise of a vast space sandbox builder where you can craft and manipulate civilization itself with tutorials not working, simple visuals, and a clunky UX...and all this is just to give the game a chance...never mind some of the content/tech issues that are usually only relevant after you've bought into the premise and played for a bit. 

I think that would work much better -- it would give more players a chance to ask questions (vs. a few streamers) and would hopefully let the dev team take more time to write detailed replies.
 
That said, the AMA would only really be helpful if there's new information -- the medium isn't as important as the content to me.
 
For me, the most important information is the roadmap: what's changing in the next 3-4 months...but I know people have a billion very specific questions, so it'd be great to have more engagement on reddit in general (if not here). 

For a number of reasons, RP opportunity for one, it would be really good for DU to have VoIP available. Based on the current state of development it should not take much to implement a 3rd party solution quickly and fairly easily.
 
VoIP should always be optional. While many would like to use it and it will certainly attract players from the RP communities (where many are _really_ looking for a good SciFi themed RP opportunity). Here is how I could see this option implemented:
 
In settings, by default VoIP is inactive, it should be an opt-in feature. The VoIP solution would easily slot into the current way chat is working. players will have local, construct or private channel access, depending on whether they have enable VoIP. Right clicking a player would show a "muted" icon next to the talk option indicating this player has VoIP disabled and will not be able to hear you if you start a conversation so chat needs to be used.  
An obvious option here would be Vivox which is both well known, inexpensive and easy to implement.
 
This would be a very welcome addition to the game, attract new players and generally improve QoL for many players. It  would be good to learn how NQ feels about this without simply referring to the upvote page as this is more about expanding the potential userbase and not cater to existing players (even when many will welcome it).
 
 

I really am extremely impressed with what the community has built in the time since launch. I think it goes to show how successful an MMO civilization builder sandbox could be -- players have the creativity and drive to build just about anything.

Having dreams doesn't make you an idiot. Lots of DU players have been eagerly following the game since its inception for the same reason. 
 
I think many space games fall into a sort of trap where they sell players on an ambitious promise that plays on their dreams. People wouldn't be here if they didn't want to be epic space nerds hauling cargo or mining or freakin' programming in LUA lol. 
 
People naturally have an attachment to dreams -- especially in today's crap salad of current events.
 
Frankly though...there's a fine line between trying to exploit those dreams in marketing for profit vs. having a real plan to deliver the promised concept...and I'm not sure which side of that line NQ ought to be on yet. 

Register here  - https://discord.gg/jc466CG

 
 
 

 
 

As it is now I am the kind of idiot who will stick around and play through the problems for the dream of the polished product. However there will be hundreds of players lost between now and then. One of the major draws (and promised advertising points) of this game is a single shard universe populated by thousands of players. Having thousands of players means keeping as many as possible. They are building a masterpiece of a game I am sure, but with the resources they have gained it might be wise to employ some people who do have some experience to help out and speed up the process in a few key areas.

A few years from now, the game is finally close to the idea that was declared....and this wonderful single shard universe is only populated by the 30-40 die hard fans who stuck around that long. Would be a huge waste. The money would have still made it worth it for NQ. But the vision would have failed.
 

I get it, but my perspective is that this ship has sailed a long time ago. 
 
I think the "division" in the community exists because the vision for this game is so ambiguous and poorly articulated and the state of production is so rough.
 
If everyone was having such fun with the game as it exists today, it wouldn't feel like a division...but because the promise and potential of the game are so mismatched with its implementation today, there's a lot of angst and commentary about what needs to be "fixed" to make it complete. 
 
I guess my point is that NQ created this problem by launching such an incomplete project as a "beta" then pitching it as the end-all game for every space nerd's niche whims. 
 
I think a lot of people really, really want to believe in that promise and would rather blame each other than developer NQ...as soon as you recognize that NQ really doesn't have a plan, you're basically giving up that this game will become the promising civilization it was pitched as. 
 
There's still a lot of time for NQ to change directions -- until then, I agree that the player base needs to be patient with each other, but also understand that these discussions are inevitable...not because they are being pointlessly divisive, but because the incomplete and unknown state of the game's design invites speculation, discussion, and strong opinions...especially because many players feel so strongly about DU's potential and vision.  
 
The thing that would fix a lot of these issues is real leadership from the dev responsible for designing the game instead of big fat question marks whenever someone asks about how their game will work...I hope that players can be united enough to push NQ to do its job more professionally.