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Pay To Win?

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15 minutes ago, xlDvSlx said:

1.Dacs are brought out of game, with real life money, that will be visible in your in game characters inventory?

Yes, or possibly in a safe container Linked to your account so that noone can steal that ingame item from you until you consume it. Because THAT would be a huge liability 

 

16 minutes ago, xlDvSlx said:

2.Dac can be used there and then to give you in-game time (a 1 month) or sold in the in-game market for in game currency?

Yes

 

16 minutes ago, xlDvSlx said:

3. At first the only way to get in-game currency is through selling DACs? 

NO!

 

The first and most viable option to earn quanta (ingame money) is go mining and then sell that ore to market bots. NQ thinks of more faucets for quanta so that ppl can earn more money out of thin air. LATER ingame, you can ofc do jobs for others (pvp, merc, transport, build,....) and they pay you quanta but for that to happen there needs to be enough quanta ingame at first. Also, you don't NEED quanta to play the game. You only need it to buy stuff from others. But you can ofc mine and craft anything yourself 

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Just like in EVE Online theres a true mechanic to not make it pay to win.
In EVE you cannot do anything until you got the right talents.
Just like in DU.
In EVE you can buy the talents sure, but they take time to learn them anyway.
This means, anything you buy, without the talents to use it your screwed.
In DU its similar. You able to beat others only by investing lot of time to train the talents.

 

Money and espeacially ingame currency means nothing, if you havnt invested time into the Game.
Still the best Payment Model you can have in a Game imho.
But if NQ decide to not make the DACs tradable, they have to raise the monthly fee.
Im not sure if so many people really want to play DU if they have to pay 20$ a month or more.
With DACs other players have the oppurtunity to play the game for free, because others payed for them.
Its a win win Situation for everyone.

And if many people buy DACs and try to sell it ingame, the price gets lower and lower.
This means, the more people do this "pay to win" thing as you say, the less they get out of it.

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ok i went wrong with no3. i was under the impressions the bots are only here for beta/alpha. making it not so bad,  i wont lie. still pretty damn bad though.  I highly recommend they do away with that, because someone can get rich by doing nothing but spending money.. which allows them to buy anything off of the market and hire people to do their bidding. all things like that should be earned the good old fasion way.  has to be a better way.

 

1. makes sense. so instead of going to the market, you can barter with people directly with these dacs?

 

so my understanding is pretty sound, and this does infact fall under the p2w category. I dont know what they should replace it with, but it needs replacing imo

 

i wont be supporting that, and after my 3 coupons are done im out. 

 

cant believe this isnt spoken more about and you all just sat down and took it on a plate. too good to be true. 2 years after predicted lunch announcing it'll be 4years after predicted launch. my alarm bells are well and truly ringing. pushing the technology is great tho, so im still happy i brought the alpha but i wont be able to recommend this on launch

 

if they keep it as it is, which im 100% sure they will because its a money maker.. and well, thats all that matters!!! am i right!

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41 minutes ago, BiGEdge said:

Just like in EVE Online theres a true mechanic to not make it pay to win.
In EVE you cannot do anything until you got the right talents.
Just like in DU.
In EVE you can buy the talents sure, but they take time to learn them anyway.
This means, anything you buy, without the talents to use it your screwed.
In DU its similar. You able to beat others only by investing lot of time to train the talents.

 

Money and espeacially ingame currency means nothing, if you havnt invested time into the Game.
Still the best Payment Model you can have in a Game imho.
But if NQ decide to not make the DACs tradable, they have to raise the monthly fee.
Im not sure if so many people really want to play DU if they have to pay 20$ a month or more.
With DACs other players have the oppurtunity to play the game for free, because others payed for them.
Its a win win Situation for everyone.

And if many people buy DACs and try to sell it ingame, the price gets lower and lower.
This means, the more people do this "pay to win" thing as you say, the less they get out of it.

I see what you're saying and it does make sense. 

If the game was free to play, I could back something like it. 

How many revenue streams would they have? So straight up monthly subscription low ball 50k players, cosmetics, advertisement and probably more I can't think of. You could argue it's a matter of volume. £20 would be hard to justify, even to a 50k playerbase. 

 

They need to do better. Eve is dead and is a niche game. DU is FPS mmo that could do waaay better. They need to realise their potential and not get greedy. 

 

No bullshit p2w. Consumer friendly model and they'll have hundreds of thousands of regular subscribers. Milking the cow will not work in 2020 I'm telling you. People are ready with pitch forks waiting for stuff like this

 

Me being one of them!!  

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13 minutes ago, xlDvSlx said:

im 100% sure they will because its a money maker.. and well, thats all that matters!!! am i right!

I don't think you've actually seen proper cash grab games yet....

 

 

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tell me one free to play game that made 50.000 or more players at all times and for over 15years?
EVE Online and DU free to play too, but only because of the possibility to trade playtime.
The revolutionary servertech is expensive. I mean for 50.000 players its very expensive.
An Dual Universe is not just a niche. Not like EVE Online.
Dual Universe is the first MMO where your able to build anything with countless people all over the world, all in one instance.
Making this thing free to play with this powerful servertech is not possible. Not if you wouldnt have talent boosts or other pay to win stuff.
But like you say. EVE is a neiche and the payment model works fine.
Dual Universe is anything else but a neiche, and they have the same payment model. Im sure it will work fine too, but even better.
And NQ have allways proven, its not about money for them, but to make potentially millions of people being connected together and form digital civilizations.
Yes you need Money to make a great game.
Yes you need Money to maintain a revolutionizing servertech.
Yes you need enough money to make sure the game works for tenthousands of people over decades.
EVE has proven that theyr system worked the best way just for a neiche game.
Why not using this experience and paymentmodel for a game, so many people waiting for?
Every DLC is free, the servers are payed, further development is payed and even the emloyees are payed.
Both games could potentially run forever as long as people pay a monthly  sub.
And the possibility for people by having theyr playtime payed by other players, because they benefit from it is only a win win win payment model.
1. win NQ can constantely run the servers and has everything payed
2. win Players who want to play the game for free are able to do it, just by buying DACs ingame
3. win Other players can sell DACs ingame to get a little bit of ingame money for it, but also pay theyr and other players monthly sub with it.
Its the most social payment model i can imagine.

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47 minutes ago, BiGEdge said:

tell me one free to play game that made 50.000 or more players at all times and for over 15years?
EVE Online and DU free to play too, but only because of the possibility to trade playtime.
The revolutionary servertech is expensive. I mean for 50.000 players its very expensive.
An Dual Universe is not just a niche. Not like EVE Online.
Dual Universe is the first MMO where your able to build anything with countless people all over the world, all in one instance.
Making this thing free to play with this powerful servertech is not possible. Not if you wouldnt have talent boosts or other pay to win stuff.
But like you say. EVE is a neiche and the payment model works fine.
Dual Universe is anything else but a neiche, and they have the same payment model. Im sure it will work fine too, but even better.
And NQ have allways proven, its not about money for them, but to make potentially millions of people being connected together and form digital civilizations.
Yes you need Money to make a great game.
Yes you need Money to maintain a revolutionizing servertech.
Yes you need enough money to make sure the game works for tenthousands of people over decades.
EVE has proven that theyr system worked the best way just for a neiche game.
Why not using this experience and paymentmodel for a game, so many people waiting for?
Every DLC is free, the servers are payed, further development is payed and even the emloyees are payed.
Both games could potentially run forever as long as people pay a monthly  sub.
And the possibility for people by having theyr playtime payed by other players, because they benefit from it is only a win win win payment model.
1. win NQ can constantely run the servers and has everything payed
2. win Players who want to play the game for free are able to do it, just by buying DACs ingame
3. win Other players can sell DACs ingame to get a little bit of ingame money for it, but also pay theyr and other players monthly sub with it.
Its the most social payment model i can imagine.

I'm sorry I cant agree. 50k players paying £10 a month is more than enough to fund this game. Cosmetic, server technology etc etc. They will kill it in the financial field. 

 

Why can't they just make DACs in-game, that can only be perched with in-game currency?? Still making it social because people can still trade and sell and people will still have the possibility to play for free.. if they can be bothered.  

 

They only people winning in the eve model are the investers and director and maybe some managers. A possible bonus maybe for the employees if a few Wales got addicted to buying DACs.

 

Greed and wanting more money is the reason why this system has prevailed in the development.

 

Eve is a terrible example imo. One guy said it's been dead since 2005. Just because it's up and running for 15years doesn't paint a full picture. I've been player Bushtarion for 15years and the player count is down to less than 100, would I want to copy it or improve upon it? 

 

I'm stuck at greed if this gets implemented 

 

They've already raised over 20m. Show some gratitude and keep all pay mechanics out of the game. It's not hard

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@xlDvSlx

@DvS_UK

 

You both have failed to structure a coherent argument. Your writing is interlaced with emotional noise.

 

Could I request that either or both of you, provide a summary of your arguments in clear statments. It would help if you can remove your emotional issues as it would be clearer to understand your arguments then. If so, thank you.

 

Point of order: Please use correct form to argue otherwise it is polluted by too much "noise". Please avoid "over-familiarity" in your language, "appelations" such as "oi mate!" are petty attention-seeking indicators. Please remove these to make your arguments clearer.

 

I would like to understand your arguments as I think you raise some interesting points about the monetization of Dual Universe. The above are provided as pointers to help you achieve this result.

 

I will strike out on a limb and try nonetheless to follow the incoherent ramblings you have both produced, however:

 

1. You deem subscriptions to be an acceptable PAYMENT MODEL.

2. You deem MTX for "skins" etc to be acceptable additional REVENUE STREAMS.

3. You deem DACs to lead to P2W as it involves direct cash for in-game currency.

 

You make a lot of invisible assumptions about context around these points however and exhibit a narrow view without using appropriate terminology: These need to be addressed before you can proceed with your arguments. The main gist of your argument is of the kind: "All life eventually degenerates hence cancer cells; therefore all life is cancer!" The rest of the language you use is juvenile and cannot be taken seriously until the above are addressed.

 

For recommendation: Please elaborate on point 3 above as well as consider a wider context as well. Then your arguments can be taken seriously and usefully discussed. Until then it is classified as rambling from any random comment in any random forum and hence noise to be ignored.

 

Finally, as it stands I don't dispute the gist of your argument that P2W in some form is implicit in the the use of DACs. But you've not even done the basics in reference to WHY it was in some senses successful solution for EVE, before elaborating further!

 

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Sorry to interrupt but this "- I don't have to grind all those resources (because I'm lazy or whatever) myself, but instead just buy a couple of DACs with RL money then sell them for quanta " is a big chiller…

In the end, it's broken to bypass the gameloop with irl money!  = P2W !!!

What DAC Injection does is simply devaluating the gameplay of many by creating money (like irl) not backed by any Added value ingame. It's not as "win" like what we use to know on a very limited scale (win or lose a match) it's about getting more than deserved because you drew coins... definitely unbalancing  the risk / reward game.

I'd gladly ear how it's not broken, but i wish you guys a good luck on this one. 

Edit : To make it way clearer, a cosmetic shop would still permit NQ to generate Value without affecting the ingame Economy as a whole, because no Quantas would have been generated or lost to it.

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34 minutes ago, Borb_1 said:

@xlDvSlx

@DvS_UK

 

You both have failed to structure a coherent argument. Your writing is interlaced with emotional noise.

 

Could I request that either or both of you, provide a summary of your arguments in clear statments. It would help if you can remove your emotional issues as it would be clearer to understand your arguments then. If so, thank you.

 

Point of order: Please use correct form to argue otherwise it is polluted by too much "noise". Please avoid "over-familiarity" in your language, "appelations" such as "oi mate!" are petty attention-seeking indicators. Please remove these to make your arguments clearer.

 

I would like to understand your arguments as I think you raise some interesting points about the monetization of Dual Universe. The above are provided as pointers to help you achieve this result.

 

I will strike out on a limb and try nonetheless to follow the incoherent ramblings you have both produced, however:

 

1. You deem subscriptions to be an acceptable PAYMENT MODEL.

2. You deem MTX for "skins" etc to be acceptable additional REVENUE STREAMS.

3. You deem DACs to lead to P2W as it involves direct cash for in-game currency.

 

You make a lot of invisible assumptions about context around these points however and exhibit a narrow view without using appropriate terminology: These need to be addressed before you can proceed with your arguments. The main gist of your argument is of the kind: "All life eventually degenerates hence cancer cells; therefore all life is cancer!" The rest of the language you use is juvenile and cannot be taken seriously until the above are addressed.

 

For recommendation: Please elaborate on point 3 above as well as consider a wider context as well. Then your arguments can be taken seriously and usefully discussed. Until then it is classified as rambling from any random comment in any random forum and hence noise to be ignored.

 

Finally, as it stands I don't dispute the gist of your argument that P2W in some form is implicit in the the use of DACs. But you've not even done the basics in reference to WHY it was in some senses successful solution for EVE, before elaborating further!

 

'Emotional noise' lol what kind of robot are you? What makes you perches most the things you own, mate?

It's an emotional subject for some, and a subject that shouldn't be taken lightly. So I'm sorry if you don't want to read through all the rubbish, to establish we both know what we're talking about.

 

To the point of order: no. I write how I write and people speak how they speak. Ask Ben Goertzel. I've never wrote 'oi mate' but I get your point. Thanks for being smart. 

 

On your request. Disclaimer, I'm but a humble plumber who knows only but modest layman terms. 

1.yes for this kind of thing, 100% 

2. Yes, but if 'skins' can blend in, it's P2W

3. Yes, if real money can influence the game, to give one an advantage of any sort, to what ever end. It is in fact pay to win. To give a gist of my logic. 

 

Glad to know you speak for all of DU.

 

I've given a basic reference to why I think eve isn't a good example.

1. It's player base is tiny, 35k concurrent players isn't amazing and goes to show just how obsessed their playerbase is. If you look at the economics

2. It's biggest news story is how it's players lost over 1million in real world money in a lag fest they call the biggest online battle ever.

 

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Ah there we go...

@xlDvSlx

@DvS_UK


You both just seem to have the same arguments. I would lean out of the window and say your both are the same person.
Both just here to argue against a payment model that is well established.
Everyone is fine with this but you.
Me and everyone else accepts how the game will be payed, or not payed in terms of the free to play Players in DU
And now theres you try to arguing against it?
If you want to play the game for free just DU it

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5 minutes ago, BiGEdge said:

Ah there we go...

@xlDvSlx

@DvS_UK


You both just seem to have the same arguments. I would lean out of the window and say your both are the same person.
Both just here to argue against a payment model that is well established.
Everyone is fine with this but you.
Me and everyone else accepts how the game will be payed, or not payed in terms of the free to play Players in DU
And now theres you try to arguing against it?
If you want to play the game for free just DU it

yes its my account, i explained it earlier.

 

im ok with subcription, no problems there. im not ok with DACs being 100% pay to win. dont confuse the 2, like subcription can only be implemented with a p2w model

 

the game is already paid for, they got way more than they needed to make this game, thats a fact. so at the very least, they could show some respect and not have a p2w model. i dont know if eve was a kick starter and i dont really care. what i do care about is how this game will turn out. 

 

these fourms are gathering dust and theres current less than 50k backers. do you really want this to stagnate at our current numbers? 

 

did anyone actually argue this? Please dont speak for the entire games population. i assure you not many players would agree to a p2w model.

 

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1 hour ago, BiGEdge said:

Ah there we go...

@xlDvSlx

@DvS_UK


You both just seem to have the same arguments. I would lean out of the window and say your both are the same person.
Both just here to argue against a payment model that is well established.
Everyone is fine with this but you.
Me and everyone else accepts how the game will be payed, or not payed in terms of the free to play Players in DU
And now theres you try to arguing against it?
If you want to play the game for free just DU it

Not everyone agrees since the cost are not reflecting what they deliver. If they deliver good assets and mechanics then okay. But it is not honest to charge when profits are stable and there is no risk of removing p2p.

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Well, it's not like they got those 20m euros as a christmas present. They got it from private investors, who will be wanting all of that money back and more. And that's just for NQ to break even.

 

NQ doesn't have 20m, they owe 20m.

 

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1 minute ago, Nanoman said:

Well, it's not like they got those 20m euros as a christmas present. They got it from private investors, who will be wanting all of that money back and more. And that's just for NQ to break even.

 

NQ doesn't have 20m, they owe 20m.

 

Not all the 20m, they don't owe me and most likely you anything, they've basically delivered on their promise in my eyes for the most part

 

50k paying £10 a month is half a million a month. Just pure subscription alone. That's low balling imo (player wise). They could lone out their engine like epic games does. Cosmetic. Sponsorships, etc. They could pay back 20m in 2 years if they went hard imo. 

 

The technology alone is worth more than that I'm willing to bet. I would like to see the valuation of NQ come to think of it

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On 1/16/2020 at 6:51 PM, DvS_UK said:

All things considered (and i know theres no 'end game' as such) if people can spend real money and convert it to in-game currency, that is broken.

If doing so means you buy an advantage that can't be obtained without spending that RL money sure. That does not apply for DU.

 

11 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

Eve is dead, pay to win will kill this games numbers. 

Sure.. EVE has been dying since 2003, yet seems to do quite well doing so.

 

11 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

Buying DACs will give any1 a head start

How will selling a DAC bought with RL money give you an advantage? It starts to sound like you like to spout random accusations without actually having an understanding of the actual mechanic or purpose. Selling a DAC in game will give you X amount of Quanta in your account, nothing more nothing less. It does not make you a better player, it does not give you better skill, you can't obtain goods or services in game that you could not otherwise get. 

 

What is your argument to make this statement (and no, this is not an opinion, you are making a statement with not a single fact to back it up)

 

 

10 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

It is a pay to win model because you can benefit in game with real world money. I know there's no end game as such, but the model falls under the category of pay to win. There is no arguing that FACT. 

Excepts you don't. Selling a DAC gives you quanta in the bank, nothing more, nothing less.

 

10 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

What I have an issue with and draw the line at, is when RL money can effect game play.

You keep saying that but you fail to ever make a single argument that supports that claim. You can't because you have no idea what you are talking about and your only reason to be here is to troll your "argument".

 

9 hours ago, DvS_UK said:

also, from what i hear Dacs will be in your inventory, making them bartable, which opens up questionable moral implementations as well as p2w

Your problem is that anything you say is based on "what you hear" and not on actual facts.

 

 

7 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

Again. The Dac will be in your inventory, so not so much 'right away' or 'boom' 

And by now you have transformed what you hear to being fact. Which is the major flaw in anything you are trying to argue since you have no information nor actual facts to back up anything you say.

 

"One of the great challenges in this world is knowing enough about a subject to think your are right but not enough about the subject to know you are wrong." - Neil Degrasse Ttyson 

 

7 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

Loool 'WAY' more expensive. It's £3 mate. Your bias is clearly clouding your judgement. I guess fools and their money really are easily parted. 

So for an extra £3 (if you buy in bulk) you can pay for peasants to mine for you. 

If ppl are dumb enough to be workforce in this game where they could have their own business and potentially work their way to not ever having to pay for a sub that's on them. If others are smart enough to take the opportunity these players present then good on them.

 

7 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

I'm sorry but I can no longer take you seriously. 

Stopped doing so regarding yourself a while ago..

 

7 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

1.Dacs are brought out of game, with real life money, that will be visible in your in game characters inventory?

2.Dac can be used there and then to give you in-game time (a 1 month) or sold in the in-game market for in game currency? 

3. At first the only way to get in-game currency is through selling DACs? 

We don't know yet, yes, no

 

6 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

ok i went wrong with no3. i was under the impressions the bots are only here for beta/alpha.

They are, eventually they will be removed is the plan. But that will not remove the possibility to put in _effort_ and start making money in game quickly and easily. NQ has actually made a public announcement of a mechanic to allow new players to do so from the moment they enter the game. That you choose to go with what some random content creator says over what NQ has officially announced is on you.

 

6 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

so my understanding is pretty sound, and this does infact fall under the p2w category. I dont know what they should replace it with, but it needs replacing imo

No it's not, you are merely building a story around your personal truth by twisting what others are saying to suit your narrative.

 

6 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

If the game was free to play, I could back something like it. 

So feck the devs and company, I will not back you unless you give me what I want for free. Great attitude there.

Do you even have a basic understanding of what  a game like DU will cost to keep running on a monthly basis?

 

6 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

How many revenue streams would they have? So straight up monthly subscription low ball 50k players,

You keep coming up with this 50K player count? where do you get this from?

 

6 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

They need to do better. Eve is dead and is a niche game. DU is FPS mmo that could do waaay better. They need to realise their potential and not get greedy. 

EVE is not dead, it's doing fine. Could be better but doing fine. How by giving you free access?

 

4 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

I'm sorry I cant agree. 50k players paying £10 a month is more than enough to fund this game. Cosmetic, server technology etc etc. They will kill it in the financial field. 

LOL, you sound like a clueless teenager with no  sense of reality here.. It seems that for you a monthly income of £500K is a lot, it will not even cover personnel cost for the company..

 

4 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

They've already raised over 20m. Show some gratitude and keep all pay mechanics out of the game. It's not hard

That money is pretty much gone by now if you run the numbers.

 

3 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

I've given a basic reference to why I think eve isn't a good example.

1. It's player base is tiny, 35k concurrent players isn't amazing and goes to show just how obsessed their playerbase is. If you look at the economics

And again you are talking out of your behind here, your statement is so incorrect your math teacher would not be able to even grade it.

Start by actually getting your facts straight, then maybe come back to actually have a talk on this.

 

 

Overall.. thanks for the entertainment, I have a good laugh so far and remember;

Spoiler

"One of the great challenges in this world is knowing enough about a subject to think your are right but not enough about the subject to know you are wrong." - Neil Degrasse Ttyson

 

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15 minutes ago, xlDvSlx said:

Not all the 20m, they don't owe me and most likely you anything, they've basically delivered on their promise in my eyes for the most part

 

50k paying £10 a month is half a million a month. Just pure subscription alone. That's low balling imo (player wise). They could lone out their engine like epic games does. Cosmetic. Sponsorships, etc. They could pay back 20m in 2 years if they went hard imo. 

 

The technology alone is worth more than that I'm willing to bet. I would like to see the valuation of NQ come to think of it

Yes, but you were kinda suggesting that they are swimming in money and I think it's a little bit too early for that party just yet.

 

And don't forget that they will continue to develop and add content to the game after release, rent/maintain a sizable server farm, and aim provide quality service. Those have been some of the reasons mentioned for the subscription model. So that's going to significantly extend those 2 years you mentioned, if we're going to assume that.

 

Btw. they do owe all the backers a shitload of DACs. Basically everyone who backed will be playing for free for months, years or even lifetimes. So the current playerbase already won't generate much revenue for the first few years. Unless they sell their DACs, but then the buying players still won't be generating that revenue.

 

I should hope that they will indeed turn a profit at some point, but I wouldn't expect it to be any sooner than any other well run and successful business. For which 3 years to profitability is considered a good average.

 

So while I understand your point about p2w (although I only partially agree), I can't really see DU as a shameless cash grab by any stretch. They are of course a for-profit business, but I think things could have been much worse if they had to answer to a game publisher instead.

 

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Blazemonger. I've given examples and reasons a few times. We've already come to the conclusion it's pay to win. Not full blown, could always be worse but it is in fact a pay to win model.. if some1 is flying a massive ship, and some1 can think ' I wonder how many DACs he sold to build that' is even possible.. it's pay to win

 

Venstix put it pretty well

 

Any1 can edit a conversation to match their bias. You JCs alt account? Lool

But seriously, if you can't keep up don't step up x

 

I forgot to mention when I say, I hear, I mean I've watched a Dev blog or read on the forums somewhere. 

 

30 minutes ago, Nanoman said:

Yes, but you were kinda suggesting that they are swimming in money and I think it's a little bit too early for that party just yet.

 

And don't forget that they will continue to develop and add content to the game after release, rent/maintain a sizable server farm, and aim provide quality service. Those have been some of the reasons mentioned for the subscription model. So that's going to significantly extend those 2 years you mentioned, if we're going to assume that.

 

Btw. they do owe all the backers a shitload of DACs. Basically everyone who backed will be playing for free for months, years or even lifetimes. So the current playerbase already won't generate much revenue for the first few years. Unless they sell their DACs, but then the buying players still won't be generating that revenue.

 

I should hope that they will indeed turn a profit at some point, but I wouldn't expect it to be any sooner than any other well run and successful business. For which 3 years to profitability is considered a good average.

 

So while I understand your point about p2w (although I only partially agree), I can't really see DU as a shameless cash grab by any stretch. They are of course a for-profit business, but I think things could have been much worse if they had to answer to a game publisher instead.

 

I didn't mean to suggest they're swimming in it right now but they can afford to develop the game as it is right now. That's just subscription alone, and at first is where they will have a high player count because it's a new release (advertising, marketing etc etc) also the cosmetics they can bring in, server technology can be sold in some form. 

On launch I'm pretty sure the player count will be over 100k. 

 

Money is the least of their worries right now. Getting the players and making the servers better are priority I imagine! Hence the NDA imo. Subscription and p2w will be dead on arrival as soon as it gets worded like that. 

 

Again subscription is fine, it will keep the riff raff like my good self out, for the most part

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, xlDvSlx said:

We've already come to the conclusion it's pay to win. Not full blown, could always be worse but it is in fact a pay to win model.. if some1 is flying a massive ship, and some1 can think ' I wonder how many DACs he sold to build that' is even possible.. it's pay to win

Not WE....YOU have come to the conclusion.

 

And again: what will he do with that ship which allows him "winning" anything? How will he man guns? What ingame skills will he have? And most importantly: where's the difference between that and an org which will build it? 

 

He may buy that ship. He may even pay guys to help him man that ship. What will he do? How will that be winning? Does he have the ingame skills to fly it? Does he have the ingame skills to set up the needed rdms to get everyone the correct rights to use everything? Does this ship automatically means he will destroy everyone? Why? 

 

There's more to this than you say and I think you rly don't know anything about this game if you think having a massive ship is p2w. And before you say something: yes he may have bought it with rl money but that doesn't neccessarily make it p2w. Life's not black and white

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4 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Not WE....YOU have come to the conclusion.

 

And again: what will he do with that ship which allows him "winning" anything? How will he man guns? What ingame skills will he have? And most importantly: where's the difference between that and an org which will build it? 

 

He may buy that ship. He may even pay guys to help him man that ship. What will he do? How will that be winning? Does he have the ingame skills to fly it? Does he have the ingame skills to set up the needed rdms to get everyone the correct rights to use everything? Does this ship automatically means he will destroy everyone? Why? 

 

There's more to this than you say and I think you rly don't know anything about this game if you think having a massive ship is p2w. And before you say something: yes he may have bought it with rl money but that doesn't neccessarily make it p2w. Life's not black and white

You have agreed you can benefit in game by buying DACs. Agreeing it's pay to win. 

 

BigEdge came right out and said but also put it in a way, where it's the nicest possible pay to win model he's ever seen. 

 

Venstix has called it P2W. Why, because it's pay to win loool 

 

We can go in circles about scenarios, like what would happen if 2/3/4 massive orgs decide to fight it out, and they find themselves a few ships short. Reeeee reeeeeee reeeeee. 

 

You're glossing over the fact it's P2W, not suggesting any better implications. And shockingly trying to justify pay to win. I'm baffled by some of you people. The fact that you're willing to except this so easily tells me you already think the game will flop. 

In which case I salute you for supporting novaquark financially

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This thread is a top tier shit show that I nearly had a stroke reading, but Ill throw my hat in because I have nothing better to do on a sunday.

 

Lets say I drop N amount of dollars on a DAC. Lets assume I bought this DAC for the sole purpose of putting it on the open market. We will also assume I was smart and bought it on an account that had an avatar directly next to a public market terminal. I will sell this DAC for some amount of quanta that has been determined by the market. Now I can buy materials or components or whatever suits me. 

 

All I have done is buy some components. Yes I skipped the couple hours of mining to do this, but I all I have is components. I still have to build the ship, fly the ship, and get the ship out of a safe zone and into friendly territory all without losing it. I haven't gained that much advantage really. And at least I will have contributed something to the community. If all you do is market trade for 6 hours a day to gain quanta, you will have actually contributed less to the community than someone selling a DAC.

 

I now you're going to ignore all of that and say I'm a blind sheep, but I tried. Also please stop posting from two accounts. Its a cancer and might not look great to mods. 

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9 minutes ago, Noddles said:

This thread is a top tier shit show that I nearly had a stroke reading, but Ill throw my hat in because I have nothing better to do on a sunday.

 

Lets say I drop N amount of dollars on a DAC. Lets assume I bought this DAC for the sole purpose of putting it on the open market. We will also assume I was smart and bought it on an account that had an avatar directly next to a public market terminal. I will sell this DAC for some amount of quanta that has been determined by the market. Now I can buy materials or components or whatever suits me. 

 

All I have done is buy some components. Yes I skipped the couple hours of mining to do this, but I all I have is components. I still have to build the ship, fly the ship, and get the ship out of a safe zone and into friendly territory all without losing it. I haven't gained that much advantage really. And at least I will have contributed something to the community. If all you do is market trade for 6 hours a day to gain quanta, you will have actually contributed less to the community than someone selling a DAC.

 

I now you're going to ignore all of that and say I'm a blind sheep, but I tried. Also please stop posting from two accounts. Its a cancer and might not look great to mods. 

Laughed way to much on that first part.

 

I see what you're saying. I'll give an example, let's take Star Wars battlefront 2 before the rework. The star cards don't directly win you the game, sure you still have to aim down sight, actually look at an enemy. But they give you a clear advantage. Sure you can earn these cards in game, but the grind is ridiculous.. swaying you to perches the cards

 

DU could be similar if not addressed now. But in this case, blueprints, marital, labour etc etc will be the indirect 'win' all of which would take hours, if not days/weeks or even months.  

 

With this in mind, you could argue NQ have made the mining process tedious just to get you to go to the market. 

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2 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

Blazemonger. I've given examples and reasons a few times. We've already come to the conclusion it's pay to win.

 

No we have not, you have. Or at least you have spun anything you can to suit your story line even when it is nonsense

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2 hours ago, xlDvSlx said:

You have agreed you can benefit in game by buying DACs. Agreeing it's pay to win. 

If you can buy a token IRL which you can convert to currency in game and by doing so you gain an instant and unique advantage which is not attainable without buying said token then sure. Does that apply to DU though? no.

 

Using a DAC in game will not give you any advantage outside money in the bank. It does not make you stronger, does not give you powers or items in game which give you and edge. It does not allow you anything that can't be gotten in game without using said token.

 

DU is not a game where having wads of cash in game will give you an edge. Like in EVE, actual experience, understanding and knowledge of the game will be what gives you the edge and DAC nor Quanta will buy you any of those. So no, DU is not P2W.

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