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MaximusFireFight

.Penalty Of Death.Scaling Ideas.

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English (deepl used)
 
8 hours ago, ShioriStein said:

Nice idea... but on the entire game scale ... how ?

Help to convince the players to build "Coruscant" on the "SANCTUARY MOON". Of course, old structures will have to be removed.
 
8 hours ago, ShioriStein said:

So if I was force to attack someone like in accident or just to piss off some griefer/troller but they pretend all the time so now after ''often'' being kill I got my avstar delete despite i'm the victim ?!

Are you from Texas (who enters my property will be shot!)? 
Access controls or defense mechanisms work without having to kill the other one.

 

4 hours ago, CoreVamore said:

Being penalised for killing someone is the same as penalising a miner for getting too much ore.

If you find a judge with the same opinion, I'll buy you a drink. Yes it is a game, but just in a game that aims at a social one should kill not be an important game mechanics.
 


 

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German (original)

 

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Helfe mit die Spieler davon zu überzeugen "Coruscant" auf dem "SANCTUARY MOON" nachzubauen. Natürlich müssen dann alte Strukturen weg.

 

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Kommst Du aus Texas (wer mein Grundstück betritt wird erschossen!)?  

Zugangskontrollen oder Abwehrmechanismen gehen auch ohne das man den anderen töten muss.

 

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Wen Du einen Richter findest der die gleiche Meinung hat gebe ich einen aus. Ja es ist ein Spiel, aber gerade in einem Spiel das ein soziales miteinander zu Ziel hat sollte töten nicht eine wichtige Spielemechanik sein.

 

 

 

Die Waldfee

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38 minutes ago, huschhusch said:
Access controls or defense mechanisms work without having to kill the other one.

You don't seem to be clear about the extend of possible griefing. Just imagine, you found a very rare ore node, another player passes by and sees you mining it.

Immediately he places a static core, creates a hollow cube around your position from his voxel library and starts mining the ore while you are trapped, unable to escape because pvp isnt possible.

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English (deepl used)

 

Hello vylqun,
I could explain to you now how to avoid such a thing, but exactly this knowledge distinguishes a successful player from one who has to steal and kill.


 

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German (original)

 

Hallo vylqun,

ich könnte Dir jetzt erklären wie man so etwas vermeidet, aber genau dieses Wissen unterscheidet einen erfolgreichen Spieler von einem der stehlen und töten muss.

 

 

 

Die Waldfee

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11 minutes ago, huschhusch said:

I could explain to you now how to avoid such a thing, but exactly this knowledge distinguishes a successful player from one who has to steal and kill.

nonsense, you keep blabbering on without any valid argument just for the sake of not agreeing. DU was planned as full pvp game (besides the ark zone) from the beginning, the sanctuary moons will be all that pure pve players recieve. Get over it.

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English (deepl used)

 

Hello vylqun,
I never claimed that PVP is not possible in DU, but if you can kill me, then I believe you can. I'm looking forward to an encounter in the game.

 

 

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German (original)

 

Hallo vylqun,

ich habe nie behauptet das PVP in DU nicht möglich ist, aber wenn Du es schaffst mich zu töten, dann glaube ich Dir das es möglich ist. Ich freue mich schon auf eine Begegnung im Spiel.

 

 

 

Die Waldfee

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3 hours ago, huschhusch said:

Yes it is a game, but just in a game that aims at a social one should kill not be an important game mechanics

We already debunked that and told you why it's important to kill ppl too. You need huge quanta faucets in Du to get it started but it's equally important to have huge sinks too

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English (deepl used)

 

Hello Lethys,

1. Who's we?
2. you always complain when you use RL as a basis. In a game without dimensional limitations, there is also infinite growth. Therefore, a restriction is only necessary for the Quanta in circulation. Items can be unlimited. But you can't destroy Quantas. Or as the saying goes: Money is not lost, only someone else has now.
 


 

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German (original)

 

Hallo Lethys,

1. Wer ist wir?

2. Du beschwerst dich doch immer, wenn man RL als Grundlage nimmt. In einem Spiel ohne Dimensionsbegrenzung gibt es auch unendliches Wachstum. Daher ist eine Beschränkung nur bei den im Umlauf befindlichen Quantas notwendig. Items kann es unbegrenzt geben. Quantas könnt ihr aber nicht zerstören. Oder wie ein Sprichwort sagt: Geld geht nicht verloren es hat jetzt nur ein Anderer.

 

 

Die Waldfee

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English (deepl used)

 

Hello Lethys,

 
the only argument you have given that is correct is that you want to kill and rob players because you enjoy it and you think that this must be part of DU. Everything else is pure nonsense, because no game needs a Wild West part, there are enough other games for that. Or do you seriously believe that you can regulate the Quanta quantity by killing other players? In this case you should stay out of serious discussions.

 
Quote

 

German (original)

 

Hallo Lethys,

das einzige Argument das Du genannt hast, das richtig ist, ist das Du gerne Spieler tötest und ausrauben möchtest, weil dir das Spaß macht und Du glaubst das dies zu DU dazu gehören muss. Alles andere ist reiner Unsinn, denn kein Spiel braucht einen Wildwestteil, dafür gibt es genügend andere Spiele. Oder glaubst Du allen Ernstes das Du durch töten anderer Spieler die Quantamenge regulieren kannst? In diesem Fall solltest Du dich aus ernsthaften Diskussionen heraushalten.

 

 

 

Die Waldfee

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- limited cores per player != unlimited grow.

- Any healthy economy needs wastage.

- DU never defined itself as mainly a social game, the devs always introduce it as a game with emergent gameplay based on crafting, exploring, politica and warfare

-  competition is an integral part of human interaction in a game and that does extend to pvp

- without pvp DU would lose a way bigger number of players than it would gain.

 

any "argument" you gave was "you just want to kill" and "not every game needs pvp", which are no arguments at all.

 

But i will stop posting here now, because no matter what you write here, pvp will be an important part of du. Nothing will change that.

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2 side of a coin. And now we are arguing whether this side or other side is need side or more important than.

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You think it doesn't need a Wild West part. That doesn't make it true.

 

Nonsense arguments were made, correct. But Not from me xD

 

If you really think that PvP isn't neccessary to regulate quanta and especially the market then please consider implementing a mining Penalty too.

Your View of Du is fundamentally wrong If you really believe the bs you're writing here

 

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English (deepl used)

 

Should DU really degenerate into a shooting gallery, I will sell my account and play Elite Dangarous again. The flight mechanics works perfectly and I will bear the grind for weapons and ships. PVP is really cool and and we hunt the Griefer in the pac. It will probably take years until such a flight mechanics works in DU.
 
 

 

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German (original)

 

Sollte DU wirklich zu einer Schießbude verkommen, werde ich meinen Account verkaufen und wieder Elite Dangarous spielen. Da funktioniert die Flugmechanik perfekt und das grinden für Waffen und Schiffe werde ich dann ertragen. Da ist PVP wirklich cool und wir jagen die Griefer im Rudel. Bis hier eine solche Flugmechanik funktioniert dauert es wahrscheinlich noch Jahre.

 

 

 

Die Waldfee

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11 hours ago, huschhusch said:

If you find a judge with the same opinion, I'll buy you a drink. Yes it is a game, but just in a game that aims at a social one should kill not be an important game mechanics.

If you are afraid of being killed then stay in a safe zone. The game caters for keeping someone safe.

 

But if you want greater rewards you go into the wild west where there are good guys, and bad guys, a land where death can be a consequence of greed. Those that hunt can end up being the hunted. This then gets into the subjective judgment of perspective of who are the good guys, who are the bad guys - that is one very gray and murky line. (Just ask an American and a Russian who was the good/bad guy  during the cold war for example).

 

No judge can give a fair ruling on this as one judge makes rulings from just one perspective, under one ruling body and laws, which could be a  totally opposite ruling to another judge under another ruling body and laws.

 

"People that kill" within DU can be thought of as soldiers. There are no good, nor bad soldiers, they are just soldiers, or killing machines. That's their job, their role. Sometimes they are full time, some times they volunteer from all walks of life to protect friends, family and property. Being a soldier is a game play role, like any other role within the game.

 

Penalising people that kill, "good guys" or "bad guys", "soldiers", will only hurt the game and make it less than it can be.

 

Letting people live in areas where they cant be killed, safe zones, sanctuary moons etc, protects those that are risk adverse (scared of dying) while keeping warfare game play intact outside of those zones.

 

Hence there is no need to penalise people that kill, just like you wouldn't penalise a miner or builder. Each has their place in the sandbox, and their safe places; whether those places are provided for by NQ or by the power of numbers.

 

That is what a balanced game is, it is also what a dynamic game is, and in the end a growing and fun game ;)

 

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On 5/22/2018 at 4:28 AM, huschhusch said:
English (deepl used)
 
Hello, Maximus,
a nice line-up and interesting idea. I would use all 10 types of death, depending on the number of players you killed yourself. It does not have to be 1:1, but can be 1:5 or proportional.
 

Ah. I love that idea! Like "Oh you were a mass murderer?" "Now your dead huh" "PAYBACK" XDXD love it.

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English (deepl used)

 

Hello, CoreVamore,
Interesting arguments.
The testimony with the judge referred only to the settlement kill and mine.
But I find it remarkable that wars are taken for granted and soldiers obviously don't need a conscience.
Soldiers should protect and disable aggressors. Killing must always be the last resort.
Soldiers are not ruthless killing machines! Otherwise you can also use robots.
This new virtual world that is only carried by players could be the world that will wish us all and that is my ambition.
Just because it is a sandbox game, not every nonsense of the other games has to play an important role.
PVP works without killing. As a player, I'm not afraid of it, because I'm not afraid to hide in a safe zone.
Only if the game consists only of wars and raids it becomes annoying for those who want to move freely and don't know enough tricks.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
 
 

 

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German (original)

 

Hallo CoreVamore,

Interessante Argumentation.

Die Aussage mit dem Richter bezog sich nur auf den Vergleich töten und schürfen.

Aber ich finde es schon bemerkenswert das Kriege als selbstverständlich gesehen werden und Soldaten offensichtlich kein Gewissen brauchen.

Soldaten sollen schützen und Aggressoren angriffsunfähig machen. Das töten muss immer das letzte Mittel sein.

Soldaten sind keine gewissenlose Tötungsmaschinen! Sonst kann man auch Roboter einsetzen.

Diese neue virtuelle Welt die nur von Spielern getragen wird könnte die Welt sein die wird uns alle wünschen und das ist mein Bestreben.

Nur weil es ein Sandbox-Spiel ist, muss nicht jeder Unsinn der anderen Spiele eine wichtige Rolle spielen.

PVP geht auch ohne töten. Als Spieler habe ich keine Angst davor, denn ich habe nicht vor mich in einer Savezone zu verkriechen.

Nur wenn das Spiel nur aus Kriegen und Raubzügen besteht wird es für diejenigen die sich frei bewegen wollen und nicht genügend Tricks kennen nervig.

 

 

 

Die Waldfee

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I've read only half of your wonderful argue, but both of you seem to start repeating too much.

 

So I'll address OP directly: Killing doesn't mean aggression. Someone can be the bad guy without killing, and only tool against it may be attacking him. Thus nobody should be penalised for self-defence by dumb automatic system.

 

However, I'm for death that has proportional consequences to all the tools you brought into combat. Including character skill levels. Following the rule "you shouldn't use what you're not ready to loose".

Although IMO such loss should be temporary, so no subscription time is ever lost. Just suspended for few days.

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6 minutes ago, CalenLoki said:

Although IMO such loss should be temporary, so no subscription time is ever lost. Just suspended for few days.

Pretty sure that would lead to large amounts of support calls to NQ as well as pissed off players, its a lose/lose situation.

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I think you misunderstood my post. You still have access to your character - the only thing suspended is % of character skill level.

 

Example: when you die you get -50% levels. Every 1 hour that penalty is reduced by 1%. After 50h (2d2h) you're back at 100%.

 

Now if you still think that would lead to any support calls, please explain why.

 

 

Pissed off players? Any more than after loosing expensive ship, equipment and resources that they need to work to regain (rather than just waiting)? Doubt it.

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1 hour ago, CalenLoki said:

I think you misunderstood my post. You still have access to your character - the only thing suspended is % of character skill level.

 

Example: when you die you get -50% levels. Every 1 hour that penalty is reduced by 1%. After 50h (2d2h) you're back at 100%.

 

Now if you still think that would lead to any support calls, please explain why.

 

 

Pissed off players? Any more than after loosing expensive ship, equipment and resources that they need to work to regain (rather than just waiting)? Doubt it.

I understood your post perfectly ;)

 

Losing skills, even temporarily ( a couple days by your example) could be disaster to an industrialist who was trying to defend him/herself from intruders/attack. The first time this happens I fully expect a player to lodge support tickets with NQ. If it keeps occurring then that player, who may be getting picked on by griefers, with skills down to just a few percent, may just say "screw this!" and leave DU permanently. Remember that skills are often what makes a character special, remove them and they are at an extreme disadvantage. So its not good for the community and its not good for NQ.

 

Even a die-hard PvP'er would lose the ability to fly and operate a wide range of ships, weapons, ammo types etc etc etc.

 

Losing a ship/base/personal items is a big enough hit to dying. Eve Online is often critisised for being tough with death, this proposed mechanic would make death hell for many players, PvP'rs and non PvP'rs alike.

 

Its a bad mechanic and shouldnt be considered.

 

 

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2 hours ago, huschhusch said:

But I find it remarkable that wars are taken for granted and soldiers obviously don't need a conscience.
Soldiers should protect and disable aggressors. Killing must always be the last resort.
Soldiers are not ruthless killing machines! Otherwise you can also use robots.
This new virtual world that is only carried by players could be the world that will wish us all and that is my ambition.
Just because it is a sandbox game, not every nonsense of the other games has to play an important role.

Firstly, soldiers are killing machines, and, robots are being developed to do just that.

 

Regardless, and I admire your desire to have a 'perfect society', just dont be surprised when group B and group C turn up on your doorstep to try and take everything. That is when you will need the killing machines you disregard.

 

So build your organisation with your lofty goals in mind (which I dont disagree with), just dont be surprised when the neighborhood bully shows up to make your day less enjoyable.  ;)

 

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On 5/22/2018 at 5:08 AM, Lethys said:

right now they plan on doing the following:

- you have a resurection node (one permanent at the arkship, one "mobile" which you can place anywhere you want, possibly more when you learn skills)

- if you die, you respawn at the nearest node

- the node you place down needs energy to work - or fuel. So you have to make sure it's powered at all times

- when you get killed, a RNG determines which items are destroyed and which are dropped

- you respawn at the node, naked and with no inventory (money is safe and is not destroyed/dropped)

- you can travel to your body to pick up the items that were dropped (in case they're still there and haven't been looted already by someone else)

 

The only means to progress in DU is via skills (because it's like in EVE online: you train them via time - there's no "actively using a skill to improve it") and money (quanta). So imho a hit to skills only disencourages players to do PVP (as seen in EVE when flying T3).

And since it's a subscription based game, you have to invest RL money to play. Over time (months and years) you can train the skills of your character via the same system EVE uses - passive training with time. People would be really upset if they invest say 400€ over 33 months (12€/month to play for example) just to get killed by some random enemy and losing their char.

Heck, I wouldn't even bother leaving the safezone with my oldest char just to prevent death. And I would constantly make new alts to just kill random players outside the safezone to make them lose their char - just to make a point how BAD that system is.

 

Penalties to death are required and good - but those should be balanced. Otherwise you just kill pvp completely because noone wants to lose skills or their (old) character. People would just use alts and noob-chars to do pvp - which would be boring to see because they could only use basic stuff. 

 

I think losing your whole inventory, spawning at some RN (thus you need to get to the battlefield again), needing supplies to gear up, need a new ship to fly there again and possibly losing your other ship to the enemy is already enough as punishment.

I agree with Lethys, it's a very fine line between discouragement and realism. From what is described above, the system seems balanced, but I'd like to see a portion of quanta dropped as well. Maybe a random number generator that determines between two percentage points (for example, 1%-5% of the total wallet amount) but nothing more. People should fear dying, but not be scared to do PVP at all.

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2 hours ago, Davis said:

 From what is described above, the system seems balanced, but I'd like to see a portion of quanta dropped as well. Maybe a random number generator that determines between two percentage points (for example, 1%-5% of the total wallet amount) but nothing more. People should fear dying, but not be scared to do PVP at all.

um, no, just no!  This means that killing an industrialist could net you billions of quanta - so no to that idea, also because quanta is not physical money, just like most money in todays world isnt physical. The suggested mechanic above would discourage, and possibly even push away, anyone wanting to be a huge industrialist etc. So again, no! ;)

 

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2 hours ago, CoreVamore said:

um, no, just no!  This means that killing an industrialist could net you billions of quanta - so no to that idea, also because quanta is not physical money, just like most money in todays world isnt physical. The suggested mechanic above would discourage, and possibly even push away, anyone wanting to be a huge industrialist etc. So again, no! ;)

 

It doesn't discourage industry, it encourages defense and protective measures when a "industrialist" is travelling in the open world. This would also promote the VIP status of certain players making them higher value targets as their wealth goes up, as it should be. Losing items is meaningless if you have billions of quanta to buy it all back. Money is the most valuable asset in any economic situation and it should be a risk everytime you're killed. 

 

Not to mention the whole idea that you need to keep all quanta on your person is ridiculous. You should be able to store it or have a organization bank where money can be pooled. 

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