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Hi all,

 

I have been looking recently about how PVP will work, and that, apart from starting areas and safe moon areas, the rest of the universe will be open PvP.

 

I have held back from backing the game for the reason that this model may well turn Dual Universe into a similarly toxic arena as Eve Online.

 

Does anyone have more info abut how this will all work, or can point me in the direction of resources on the net so that I can get a better handle on this?  

 

I think that DU has the potential to be the kind of game I am looking for, and would really like to back, and a PvP element is of course fine, but I am concerned about the possibility of open slather, and the best resource areas being prone to getting ganked.

 

Cheers,

RA

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Hey there,

 

https://dualthegame.com/en/news/2018/01/30/our-toughts-on-territory-protection-mechanics/

 

It's pretty well explained there. Exploring, going to new places, finding a new home among the stars,.... Should be hard and dangerous. PvP is an essential part there because it's a "civilization" game.

 

If you just want to be safe 100% at all times then there is already a possibility. Live in the ASA around the ark. You can be there all the time and even mine all basic resources. So you can build all the basic stuff right there, 100% safe. 

 

But rare resources and the "good stuff" will be ofc far away from the safezones to force ppl to Go outside. It doesn't make any sense to give players everything without risk. 

So when you want those rare resources you have to Go there. 

And yes, that's a PvP zone. That makes sure ppl band together, collaborate and help each other. 

 

Or, If you don't want to Go there, then wait for ppl until they trade those resources with you. Might be more expensive, but will happen

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12 hours ago, RhysAnnwn said:

and the best resource areas being prone to getting ganked.

The moment you step out of the safezone, you will be "prone to getting ganked". Mining some valuable resource will simply increase that risk.

 

And dying means you lose your ship and everything in your inventory (except the cash in your wallet, which is always safe).

 

But there are no fixed "best resource areas" in DU. Resources will be spread all over the planets, moons and asteroids in the systems, and will have to be found and mined. And once a specific deposit is mined out, it doesn't respawn (ever), you have to find a new deposit somewhere else.

 

There are no specific places where the "best" resources can always be found. So it won't be possible for criminals to "camp the high value nodes", because that mechanic does not exist in DU. The outer planets in any system will most likely have the best chance for valuable resources, but the planets in DU are VERY large, searching an entire planet to find miners will take considerable amounts of time... and time is money in DU. Every minute you spend searching for targets costs fuel...

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So let buying other "resource scan" result to easy find one without lost your value time.

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7 hours ago, ShioriStein said:

So let buying other "resource scan" result to easy find one without lost your value time.

Oh yes. But only buy from trusted ppl, as that could be a Trap too xD

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52 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Oh yes. But only buy from trusted ppl, as that could be a Trap too xD

I DEMAND refund :P

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Thanks for that.

 

I do realise that PvP is a part of the game, and completely understand the mechanics and reasoning behind it...to paraphrase Marvel Comics "With great resources come great risks".

 

My concerns lie in the directions of the kind of game DU will become: will it devolve into just being an Eve 2.0 where a established players can "game the system" and make the experience toxic?  Or will there be greater rewards for greater co-operation but still with the thrill of risk, not the certainty of total annihilation? 

 

I really did hope that this would be "the game" for me, but because of the amount of actual real-time I will be able to spend on it, and the vast areas where a player will be open to attack when they're off-line, I don't think I will be able to devote the amount of effort required to give it the chance it needs.

 

Thanks for all your input...

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1 hour ago, RhysAnnwn said:

I really did hope that this would be "the game" for me, but because of the amount of actual real-time I will be able to spend on it, and the vast areas where a player will be open to attack when they're off-line, I don't think I will be able to devote the amount of effort required to give it the chance it needs.

Thats why you join a big organisation that runs its own bases which will be relatively safe. ;)

 

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1 hour ago, RhysAnnwn said:

My concerns lie in the directions of the kind of game DU will become: will it devolve into just being an Eve 2.0 where a established players can "game the system" and make the experience toxic?  Or will there be greater rewards for greater co-operation but still with the thrill of risk, not the certainty of total annihilation?

PvP isn't toxic, it's just the way to go to make it entertaining for many people. 

 

You already habe a greater reward for greater coop: relative safe places, way more resources for projects, lots of people doing different stuff where you can help, lots of social contacts, ....

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32 minutes ago, Lethys said:

PvP isn't toxic, it's just the way to go to make it entertaining for many people. 

 

 

I never said PvP is toxic...I said the player experience in Eve is toxic, and I don't want that in a game I play...

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1 hour ago, CoreVamore said:

Thats why you join a big organisation that runs its own bases which will be relatively safe. ;)

 

That's another problem I have - I don't take orders easily...being in a "big organisation" would be I'd have to do just that...;)

 

I know that a lot of what I am saying - if not all - is about the kind of experience I am looking for - it is not dissing DU, just a few concerns having played Eve and experienced just how "nice" the player base is...I am hoping that the devs can close some of the game-play exploits that can lead to a toxic experience.  And by that, I don't mean get rid of PvP, I just hope there is no way for a Goonswarm type gaming of the system!  And that ganking doesn't turn out to be the cause célèbre of the forums!!

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7 hours ago, RhysAnnwn said:

I never said PvP is toxic...I said the player experience in Eve is toxic, and I don't want that in a game I play...

And that's Not true either. It depends where you are in eve, which Corp you're in and what you do. And it depends on your mindset when you  Play  too.  I pIayed eve for over 10000 hours and loved the player experience. 

Smacktalk in local? Hilarious at times and when you're Not in the mood just ignore it. 

 

Sowhat do you mean by that?

 

7 hours ago, RhysAnnwn said:

That's another problem I have - I don't take orders easily...being in a "big organisation" would be I'd have to do just that...;)

Well that's your problem then isn't it, Not DUs? 

If you can't take orders easily in a social MMO then either live alone and do stuff alone or create your own org and run it. You have to work together in Du to get things done faster, better and more efficient, that's the point of socializing and rebuilding civilization

 

7 hours ago, RhysAnnwn said:

I am hoping that the devs can close some of the game-play exploits that can lead to a toxic experience.  And by that, I don't mean get rid of PvP, I just hope there is no way for a Goonswarm type gaming of the system!  And that ganking doesn't turn out to be the cause célèbre of the forums!!

Which "exploits" so you mean?

 

And what exactly did the goons do? Burn jita? 

 

Again: If you're a "carebear" (and i don't mean that negative!) and just can't wrap your head around PvP for whatever reason and your mindset isn't the right one to play in a hostile and PvP heavy area - then that's fine and ok. In eve you're never 100% safe, anyone can attack you at any time. 

In Du you can be 100% safe, do everything the game offers in a 100% non-PvP environment (scanning, mining, building, flying, Trading, ....). 

 

The Moment you step outside the ASA though, you can be attacked. Does that mean you'll die everytime you step outside? No, ofc not. Be smart about it, survey the area. Socializing with ppl helps and asking them for intel (has SOMEONE been Seen? Are Pirates Here?). Friends help too. Think before you do something - maybe it's better to hide a bit more and Take the longer route to your Destination, so the Others don't spot you. 

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Corpo like Goons will have a very fast reality checks for 2 reasons already mentioned heres and there : 

  • Finites  ressources that need time and skills to be found.
  • No overpowered aka scripted mining equipments whatsoever.
  • Manly operated ships (space and atmospheric) will need real crews to operate weaponries.
  • And some interesting basic mechanic not allowed to talk here that will make ganking really a challenge. 

In short building a fleet of catalyst will be extremely costly in time, ressources and men to operate. I won't even mention Capitals war-fleet..

 

Another side note, JC is/was an Eve player and knows very well how ganking could destroy an early game very  quickly.

 

 

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There are already many orgs on DU that let u do your own thing. Im in one. There are others. Same for within Eve. Just like players, corps/orgs can be different from what you are expectiing/describing above.

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It is possible that DU's game play may turn out to be far too "slow and boring" for the average EVE pilot !

 

In DU fuel is real requirement, plan badly and you're going to be "floating dead in space". Take 1000's of fuel units with you and suffer the consequences of the performance hit. Roaming around searching for "targets of opportunity" is going to burn fuel (i.e. it costs money !), specially in atmospheric flight.

 

And the question of exactly what happens to constructs when you logout hasn't been settled yet. If constructs don't despawn with the player avatar (like in EVE) or can be effectively "hidden" by a logoff cloak, then when and where you logoff could become a serious issue.

 

Then there's the economic implications: in DU there's no NPC's to farm for quick cash, no NPC missions to run, no "faction point rewards" or "rare drops" that can be sold off to raise funds. Replacing losses in DU will not be as easy as it is in EVE.

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12 hours ago, RhysAnnwn said:

That's another problem I have - I don't take orders easily...being in a "big organisation" would be I'd have to do just that...;)

 

I know that a lot of what I am saying - if not all - is about the kind of experience I am looking for - it is not dissing DU, just a few concerns having played Eve and experienced just how "nice" the player base is...I am hoping that the devs can close some of the game-play exploits that can lead to a toxic experience.  And by that, I don't mean get rid of PvP, I just hope there is no way for a Goonswarm type gaming of the system!  And that ganking doesn't turn out to be the cause célèbre of the forums!!

For what it's worth, I can certainly relate with your concerns.

 

As for orgs, as someone already mentioned there are (or will be) orgs that exist just for the inherent benefits, while remaining politically neutral, avoiding ridiculous drama, not imposing stupid duties and basically leaving you free to do what you want.

 

That's probably the kind of org I'll be looking for (if any). If none exist that fit the bill, then you and I could start one if you like. I'm pretty sure there will be plenty of other players interested in an org like that.

 

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To summarize or generalize, I personally still think that in many people's heads, there is an abstract wild fear about PVP, being "griefed", ganked, taken advantage of, etc.

 

Now I realize I might have it easy or be potentially biased: I'm no hardcore PvP fan by default or through playstyle. I don't actively look for the confrontation or need it all the time. I don't intend to hold people up, rob them, ruthlessly destroy their creations, etc.

 

But at the same time I do not hide and shy away from a fight. Defend myself or fight back if need be. I'm currently playing on a DayZRP community that goes with its own lore and setting.

 

And boy, it's a blast!

 

But why? It's the conflict, the survival, the unclear encounters. Anything can happen and at the same time, various factions formed that fight for power, influence and control over the region you play in. From government forces to remnants, to anarchists, communists (secessionists, in a nutshell), to psychopath groups or people and groups with their own agendas - so many interactions, so much to do. And at the same time, despite or due to the conflict, plenty to do for people who may not want to actively fight. Logistics, helping others, moving things back and forth in the war, obtaining intelligence.

 

It's just an example from another game, and while DayZ may not be completely or very comparable to DU, some things remain pretty much universal in conflicts. As someone neither totally fond but not totally averse to PvP either, I can only suggest to look past potentially abstract fears for the future and embrace the possibilities you have in a potentially war-torn or always politically and economically contested universe.

 

Don't let your fears control you and embrace the vast options that unfold before you, and you shall truly go through an immersive or epic experience with ups and downs. And when you look back one time, you will know it was worth the time investment. I want you all to eventually look back and say:

 

"...and boy, has it been a blast!"

 

Even if that means you stayed in safe zones most of the time. But that's fine. Unlike in DayZ and other comparable games, here, we have hard, actual or fully safe zones. Really, make the best of that instead of fearing what could happen. And if even that may be "too much" for you, then maybe DU might not be a game for you. For all it's compromises, there's still risk once you go into certain areas. That's just what it is.

 

 

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As for rank structures and taking orders...

 

...how would you define taking orders? What would be the averse factor, the thing that bugs you there?

 

I'd generalize and say: (Almost) No matter what group you join, you (are expected to) integrate somehow and contribute in some way or form. I think "taking orders" is simply a measure of sharing duties or contributions or managing them. It boils down to the same: You do certain things in the organization or contribute somehow, in whatever pace, in whatever form. My point is, it's likely just "how" the group is organized, but in the end it's still a very much social or collective approach.

 

Less abstract and out of curiosity: What bugs you more? That you are expected to contribute in general or that someone gives you an order or task (with emphasis on how)?

 

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27 minutes ago, Warden said:

Less abstract and out of curiosity: What bugs you more? That you are expected to contribute in general or that someone gives you an order or task (with emphasis on how)?

I'd guess it's a really a question of "How much opportunity cost will be involved by playing with this group ?"

 

For instance, if you like fighting in squads, then joining a military org will carry ZERO opportunity cost, it will in fact have bonuses !

But if you like building nice city layouts, joining a military org may severely limit the amount of your game time that can be spent on doing the things that you prefer doing.

 

That's a very simplistic example, but it illustrates the point. Things are usually a bit more nuanced.

 

If you like building, you can join a group that's focused on building, but you may find that you're spending most of your time as a worker building whatever the "chief architect" of the group has designed. And there is usually only one "chief architect", so unless your part of the senior leadership, it's unlikely to be you...

 

Joining a group inevitably means spending time on things the group has prioritised. The trick is finding the right group so that your interests align as closely as possible with that of the group in general. Some people simply aren't prepared to make those compromises.

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@Warden Speaking for myself, it's not about PvP in itself, including pirates and spies and all that stuff. In my opinion all of that is fair game. But it's about the mentality of some (not all) players that tends to dominate the landscape in these games, if given the opportunity. And yes it's toxic. That's what they're in it for, and if a game doesn't provide them such opportunities they probably would not be playing it. I'm hopeful that DU will prove to be fairly resistant to that mentality, without hurting what good PvP gameplay could be.

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There is another thing that Mae DU different from Eve beside that everything will have a cost, either financial and/or men and ressources.

 

We will need to explore the universe and creating trade routes, business hub like JITA and that create some interesting game mechanic like that:

Your corpo found an interesting system and decided to open a trade route by installing a Stargate between that said system and Alioth's system. Your interest will be to secure those gates because you can collect a traveling fees, and if you failed to protect your customers, sooner or later another org will open a gate with stronger protections and more services like escorts, insurances and whatnot... 

 

Thinking of it, we already  went there in the XVI-XVII centuries when the major European powers  sent ships everywhere to open and secure trades routes from/to Africa, India, Asia and such and it was fair game for those companies to 'reduce' their competitors by any means.

 

And remember, a war is won with money, not men...

 

Namaste

 

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22 hours ago, CoreVamore said:

Thats why you join a big organisation that runs its own bases which will be relatively safe. ;)

 

Like you CoreVamore, I am in Australia so the TZ is a thing as well.  Also limitation on when I can actually commit time to an organisation.

 

That's really what I mean about orders...you must be at such place at such time...if I can't, then...???

 

My comments are from my perspective...what I can get from the game, and that is fair enough as there is a real life money contribution here.

 

I want to be able to spend what time I can being productive, and not have that blasted away in mindless ganking - I appreciate the need for PvP - especially in a game like DU where it really is about frontier building, so it really does make sense.  It is the mindlessness of some not all players seeking PvP that can ruin the experience.

 

Everything I have seen makes me keen to be a part of this...and I would like to Pledge as a Contributor.  I know that some if not many here would have already been in the Pre-Alpha testing and I am just looking for the experiences and feel for what the game will be like; I know that it is still largely in development and that player contributions to game play are being listened to. 

 

I thank you all - well most - for your positive comments and I think a lot of my fears of a toxic player base taking hold of DU have been largely alleviated.

 

 

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1 hour ago, RhysAnnwn said:

That's really what I mean about orders...you must be at such place at such time...if I can't, then...???

Players will be able to build their own, and participate in, player built markets. Effectively that means you take your materials/products to the market place, store them, which places them on the market. Once on the market you can head to work, bed, where ever, with your goods ready for a buyer and a sale ;)

 

 

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