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yamamushi

Selling Software on Ingame Markets

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First of all, it would be cool to even have the ability to use the 'require' keyword in LUA for importing libraries for use in our LUA scripts.

 

Even if that was limited to a list of provided libraries from NQ, that would be awesome. 

 

 

However, I'd like to take that a step further and let people distribute their own code via disks/memory units/whatever ingame. Thus people could actually make a living ingame doing nothing but selling their own software. 

 

Not only do I see standalone LUA scripts being distributed this way, but also libraries. So instead of a programmer having to go to your elements and manually copy in code for each one on your ship, if you don't want to code everything yourself, you might just go buy the premade software off the market for installation in elements like consoles. 

 

As was discussed in the GrayStillPlays interview, the stated goal was to allow us to buy a ship off the market, change it up a bit or improve it somehow, and then sell the differences on the market as an "upgrade" to the base ship. That could even be extended to software, so you might add a better navigation UI into a ship you buy and decide to sell it on the market. 

 

We're likely going to be sharing code online anyways, it would be cool to see it integrated as a game mechanic. 

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Not sure i understood your post first 2 sentences

 

But for the rest, well thats an amazing idea that is probably, isnt clarified but already granted to me, will be same as any solid creations, the possibility to share / exchange / sell those scripts.

what would stop us from building ourelves a hard drive shape like little box, insert the script inside, name it(ready to go engine v3.0 by Yamamushi) and sell the hardrive object on the market

 

maybe is what you meant about the physical aspect of the script in the shop and in your hands? how to transmit it from player to player? will we have to copy past the text in chat (i hope not lol)? what aspect will it have in our inventory?

 

and one big thing is also they mentioned, they will try to avoid those players that will only play to make money, but thats pretty sure inevitable

and what i think, as long as some players make money, dev team will do too and they cannot split on it

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Not sure i understood your post first 2 sentences

 

But for the rest, well thats an amazing idea that is probably, isnt clarified but already granted to me, will be same as any solid creations, the possibility to share / exchange / sell those scripts.

what would stop us from building ourelves a hard drive shape like little box, insert the script inside, name it(ready to go engine v3.0 by Yamamushi) and sell the hardrive object on the market

 

maybe is what you meant about the physical aspect of the script in the shop and in your hands? how to transmit it from player to player? will we have to copy past the text in chat (i hope not lol)? what aspect will it have in our inventory?

 

and one big thing is also they mentioned, they will try to avoid those players that will only play to make money, but thats pretty sure inevitable

and what i think, as long as some players make money, dev team will do too and they cannot split on it

 

 

The first two lines were about the keyword in LUA that allows you to import libraries/modules for use in your own LUA scripts. ie:

// Create an example file mymodule.lua with the following content:

local mymodule = {}

function mymodule.foo()
    print("Hello World!")
end

return mymodule

// Now to use this new module in the interactive interpreter, just do:

> mymodule = require "mymodule"
> mymodule.foo()
Hello World!

And to your second point, yes I think a hard drive type item would be useful. I don't know that they'd be using hard drives necessarily that many years in the future, but some type of physical object that stores code that works in the lore would be useful. 

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The first two lines were about the keyword in LUA that allows you to import libraries/modules for use in your own LUA scripts. ie:

// Create an example file mymodule.lua with the following content:

local mymodule = {}

function mymodule.foo()
    print("Hello World!")
end

return mymodule

// Now to use this new module in the interactive interpreter, just do:

> mymodule = require "mymodule"
> mymodule.foo()
Hello World!

And to your second point, yes I think a hard drive type item would be useful. I don't know that they'd be using hard drives necessarily that many years in the future, but some type of physical object that stores code that works in the lore would be useful. 

 

i understand now!!! it will probably the case, in a way to limit and simplify script possibilities

 

 

other wise i think the script container will have its proper design for each designers, planets, communities, could immagine a community on a planet that has a steampunk theme, their design will be more like a rusty hard drive, some other planets will have clean and futuristic theme, their objects design will be white and neon style. and later on if you familliar a bit with the universe you ll guess from which planets the good you just bought could be from   

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Please no...

This could give a backdoor for some people to hog the servers down Yama.

Plus, the LUA code will need to be distributed on each DPU node. It won't be a central DPU thing, the way JC explained it on the devblogs. People would still have to distribute the pieces of code manually to the DPUs themselves. Which brings me to my next point.

Wikia. You do indeed know that most coders, like in how they did it for WoW Add-Ons, will upload their code to the wiki for templating them, or, even better, GitHub. There are some logical and interesting gameplay mechanics, but they shouldn't be a much more complicated version of omething that will be done easily.

Plus, you know that each ship will handle differently. You can't be expecting one piece of code to rule them all, because mass. And within a class of ships even there could be differences. 

It's a novel idea, but again, as you also said, chances are we'll be sharing code online. I don't think they should bother with such a thing,

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Please no...

 

This could give a backdoor for some people to hog the servers down Yama.

 

Plus, the LUA code will need to be distributed on each DPU node. It won't be a central DPU thing, the way JC explained it on the devblogs. People would still have to distribute the pieces of code manually to the DPUs themselves. Which brings me to my next point.

 

Wikia. You do indeed know that most coders, like in how they did it for WoW Add-Ons, will upload their code to the wiki for templating them, or, even better, GitHub. There are some logical and interesting gameplay mechanics, but they shouldn't be a much more complicated version of omething that will be done easily.

 

Plus, you know that each ship will handle differently. You can't be expecting one piece of code to rule them all, because mass. And within a class of ships even there could be differences. 

 

It's a novel idea, but again, as you also said, chances are we'll be sharing code online. I don't think they should bother with such a thing,

 

particules / controls / permissions / vendors etc... might be function calling for libraries

that how they will simplify LUA and give us one function instead of us typing 20 lines of boring code for each

thats inevitable, LUA isnt originally made for games

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particules / controls / permissions / vendors etc... might be function calling for libraries

that how they will simplify LUA and give us one function instead of us typing 20 lines of boring code for each

thats inevitable, LUA isnt originally made for games

Indeed, they might tie libraries tied to elements, instead of typing walls of text every time, we may simply use a line in LUA like "engageElementUtility(1)" for a targeting sensor to define it must scan for hostiles.

 

It's much more simplified than people think really. If the devs wanted the scripting to be insane, they would have allowd for C coding to be possible. Obviously, they didn't :P

 

Lua is an extension on a C API and very very very basic and was mainly used for people who didn't knew of deep programming stuff to customise software based on C. That was in the 90s of course, were people were savages.

 

 

It's a VERY basic language, used for very basic True/False values and if / elseif /functions and loops. Sure, with alot of work, you can make it do isane logical acrobatics, but the point is, it may not worth it in the end due to gameplay mechanics, like DPUs of X amout of lines in them needing X amount of Wattage to operate in a grid. 

 

In fact, in Greece, we learn Lua in high-school. Yeah, it's that simple really.

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A market tab for LUA sounds amazing and the best case scenario, and I don't know why it couldn't be done. And they might as well include the functionality because I would say that this will probably happen even if it's not tied to the in-game market. I could see a posting on a job board asking for someone from a specific organization to come and optimize(?) their scripting(??), or access the DPU for that ship and paste-in (I guess?) the correct scripts for construct. Or if it came to it, posting pay us 42 million moneys, and we will fix how your ships fly. Sorry for my basic at best vocabulary on this.

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I remember this part of the interview and TBH I didn't like hearing it.  If I come up with something then I should be able to sell it without a buyer taking it, using it as a start and change it.  If I make something good enough to have high demand then I should cash in until something better come along ... without using my own creation to do it.

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I remember this part of the interview and TBH I didn't like hearing it.  If I come up with something then I should be able to sell it without a buyer taking it, using it as a start and change it.  If I make something good enough to have high demand then I should cash in until something better come along ... without using my own creation to do it.

 

But it's not like if they improve it that they can sell your original blueprints, people would still have to buy your ship to then change it into the "upgrade" that someone else sells.

 

An example in the real world would be, if you buy a dell computer, wouldn't you want to be able to buy upgraded ram or a bigger hard drive without going through dell and buying a whole new computer?

 

Or if you buy a car, are people not allowed to sell you better car stereos or window tinting?

 

Or if I buy a house, am I not allowed to paint it however I want inside and install whatever appliances I want? 

 

 

If someone sells upgrades or modifications to your ship, they are just selling those small changes, not your ship + modifications. This would extend to ground buildings too. If someone builds a standard barracks or depot, people might choose to sell different arrangements for the walls inside, or sell modifications to the way things are wired, or whatever. 

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But it's not like if they improve it that they can sell your original blueprints, people would still have to buy your ship to then change it into the "upgrade" that someone else sells.

 

An example in the real world would be, if you buy a dell computer, wouldn't you want to be able to buy upgraded ram or a bigger hard drive without going through dell and buying a whole new computer?

 

Or if you buy a car, are people not allowed to sell you better car stereos or window tinting?

 

Or if I buy a house, am I not allowed to paint it however I want inside and install whatever appliances I want? 

 

 

If someone sells upgrades or modifications to your ship, they are just selling those small changes, not your ship + modifications. This would extend to ground buildings too. If someone builds a standard barracks or depot, people might choose to sell different arrangements for the walls inside, or sell modifications to the way things are wired, or whatever. 

 

If I take the time to write a script that does something unique, I don't want someone to be able to buy the item and have access to said script.  A better analogy is if Toyota bought a Tesla car and was able to use it to gain the knowledge and make their own.  Unless I missed something in the interview but having access to the LUA script is what bothers me, and the only way to be able to modify it is to have access to it.

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If I take the time to write a script that does something unique, I don't want someone to be able to buy the item and have access to said script.  A better analogy is if Toyota bought a Tesla car and was able to use it to gain the knowledge and make their own.  Unless I missed something in the interview but having access to the LUA script is what bothers me, and the only way to be able to modify it is to have access to it.

 

 there will be copyrights on it:

 

Copy: alowing you to copy the script and use it in as may objects you want

Modify: allowing you to open and edit the script

Transfer: allowing you to give to someone else the script

 

creators will have choice which copyright they will want to set before giving away or selling

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If someone can read it then they can copy it ... even if not a direct copy/paste using the keyboard.  No matter how tedious it would be, if it is something that good then someone will do it.

 

I'm not saying that I am even able to create something so good but I believe in miracles lol.

 

Unless it is like a patent where someone who creates something new using a script that has already been made by someone else isn't allowed game wide.

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If someone can read it then they can copy it ... even if not a direct copy/paste using the keyboard.  No matter how tedious it would be, if it is something that good then someone will do it.

 

I'm not saying that I am even able to create something so good but I believe in miracles lol.

 

Unless it is like a patent where someone who creates something new using a script that has already been made by someone else isn't allowed game wide

 

have you emit the possibility that in some cases you cannot read it? with no modify copyright bound to it

 

that the script could be integrated into a player design such as a chip, or in your inventory you will just see the script icon and its name but couldnt open it

and to use it you ll just have to drag and drop it into your construction?

 

its pretty simple, its just an ingame copyright parameter issue? 

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I guess I may be unclear about what JC meant exactly when he stated modify in the interview.  If it is more of simply adding on without changing any of the original script and still keeps the script secret then cool.  I was picturing he meant modifying the specific script, not simply adding another script.

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I guess I may be unclear about what JC meant exactly when he stated modify in the interview.  If it is more of simply adding on without changing any of the original script and still keeps the script secret then cool.  I was picturing he meant modifying the specific script, not simply adding another script.

 

i think, and i hope, there will be script 100% written by players, that elments will be premade scripted models, for people who dont want waste time building and scripting

 

otherwise we will all fly in same mesh cockpits with same turbo jets....

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 If it is more of simply adding on without changing any of the original script and still keeps the script secret then cool.

 

I agree with this and your previous statement about exposing the script in any way leading to theft of the intellectual property. It's probably for the best. But I would say that coding should be capable of interfacing with the RDMS. You can allow others to look at it or not. Allow others to edit, or not. Depending on how DPUs and the code interface is developed, it may be possible to limit the number of copies created or sold, too.

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I'd like to see Lua Scripts sold in the markets as compiled libraries. This way the source code could be protected, but the functionality preserved. Just like in real life.

 

Now lets say someone wanted to improve your library they could simply reference it and override certain functions and add new ones. They would still need to purchase the original library but could resell the newer updated library at a higher price.

 

Copying and Pasting scripts manually, without being able to protect your scripts "blueprint" would kill off an entire industry. Imagine you built a ship and created a blueprint, which people could just re-use over and over again without paying the owner... You could not make money from designing ships because "piracy" would be rife - the same applies to software.

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I'd like to see Lua Scripts sold in the markets as compiled libraries. This way the source code could be protected, but the functionality preserved. Just like in real life.

 

Now lets say someone wanted to improve your library they could simply reference it and override certain functions and add new ones. They would still need to purchase the original library but could resell the newer updated library at a higher price.

 

Copying and Pasting scripts manually, without being able to protect your scripts "blueprint" would kill off an entire industry. Imagine you built a ship and created a blueprint, which people could just re-use over and over again without paying the owner... You could not make money from designing ships because "piracy" would be rife - the same applies to software.

 

Thats why a copyright system has to be implemented: copy / modify / transfer

where players will have choice to set before giving and selling away, either on objects, scripts and blueprints (what ever can be shared)

 

Copy: would allow to multiply the object

Modify: basicly will allow copy and transfer at same time

Transfer: would alow to re share

 

So if you set permission for example to "copy" only (no transfer / no modify)

The object or the object built from blueprint, will only been usable by the player it has been given to.

 

If you set to all, will be like an open source object, allowing anyone to modify improve and get profit from it

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I agree with this and your previous statement about exposing the script in any way leading to theft of the intellectual property. It's probably for the best. But I would say that coding should be capable of interfacing with the RDMS. You can allow others to look at it or not. Allow others to edit, or not. Depending on how DPUs and the code interface is developed, it may be possible to limit the number of copies created or sold, too.

"

I do hope that's the case. The RDMS system should be able to an extent exert some controlling power over codes. But then, this may be the only option. Nobody will be able to use your codes until you assign them a tag that the RDMS identifies as giving them access. If they don't have the tags, they can't use your code, not unless you sell it to them.

 

The question now is, will we able to limit the read, write and execute properties of codes and scripts we sell, or will these scripts be inaccessible except through obtaining some sort hard drive that contains the script? If that is true, online sharing might be the only way to get some scripts for free, except of course, you wish to give it out for free.

"

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I am bumping this because I am watching the Kickstarter Ask Me Anything youtube vid where JC is answering questions ( I know, "You are just watching it now???"    I have been a slave at work for the past month). 

 

At about the 13 minute mark the question about scripts being readable comes up.  What I mentioned in my first post in this thread looks to be true.  If you sell something that has a script then said script will be readable by the purchaser. 

 

I do not like this at all. Please tell me I am missing something and I am wrong.

 

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The main issue with having LUA Scripts obfuscated or non readable is backdoors :

 

What prevent me to create a kick-ass LUA script and adding a backdoor into it like to send your coordinate to me?

 

Because the code is not readable, I will have a huge advantage over you you have no way to uncover (unless by spying)

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JC said that there won't be anything like that able to be put in. Like a backdoor kill switch or anything like that.

 

If I spend time creating a kick-ass script for an element, then after the first one is sold my script is known already.  I can't "invent" a unique item and continue to benefit with income until someone else "invents" something better. 

 

Element A is basic

My "invented" element is better so I charge more

After buying one of those elements from me, why would you buy another from me when you now have the script? You'd buy the cheaper element A and simply enter the script copied from the one you bought.

 

See what I mean?  So why spend hours on a better script to sell in a market then?  This takes away a huge aspect that I thought LUA would bring into the game. The only reason to spend hours writing a better script is for your own use to have advantage over others or to distribute to your own organization's members.  There is no inventing the !phone and cashing in for a bit.

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JC said that there won't be anything like that able to be put in. Like a backdoor kill switch or anything like that.

I doubt they will be able to stop someone that want to implement a backdoor if the code is unreadable.

 

As I understood JC in the interview he only said they wasn't a "blow up on spot" function but through unseemly means you could do the exactly the same (overtime or not).

 

For example :

They will be element that receive signals and react on reception so you would just have to script a suicide function that takes control of the ship direction and send it in the nearest sun or to a enemy base upon receiving a "go suicide :)" signal.

You could also make the ship broadcast signals around itself upon entering a pirate-full zone: "I'm here : (x,y, z)" for all pirates to see

Or make the ship use too much fuel by activating the shield or whatever consuming task randomly to deplete the ship and render it useless.

 

 

See what I mean?  So why spend hours on a better script to sell in a market then?

Because with a good script your construct will be better and do more than with the default script.

Furthermore a script will be very specific to the construct anyway so you won't be able to just copy-paste it unless you put it inside the exact same construct.

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