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!SIN!seennotheard

Should Marketplaces Have Lua Scripts/Have APIs?

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An API would be very handy for different reasons but markets would probably benefit most of it. I could live without an API and get that data via other means, but I think that's not rly neccessary. 

 

I'm not sure about the scripting part though. It's probably possible to script something like that but to me it would be pretty much botting.

People do that in EVE all the time and those guys just let their program handle everything.

 

I'm not against such a thing per se but it should be looked at carefully as this could easily lead to bots and an explosion in alts

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-Removed-

I agree that some sort of API could be a great resource for the player community whether player built or integrated.  

 

Scripting the market could affect balance in some ways, but I don't know how much.  NQ would have to decide whether it was something they want to allow or not.  With the fact that scripts are supposed to run on your machine, and the limitations NQ is giving them I don't know if they could be built to be more than a convenience.

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5 hours ago, Lethys said:

An API would be very handy for different reasons but markets would probably benefit most of it. I could live without an API and get that data via other means, but I think that's not rly neccessary. 

 

I'm not sure about the scripting part though. It's probably possible to script something like that but to me it would be pretty much botting.

People do that in EVE all the time and those guys just let their program handle everything.

 

I'm not against such a thing per se but it should be looked at carefully as this could easily lead to bots and an explosion in alts

Im imagining that you wouldn't use alts, but instead you would write a Lua script.

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52 minutes ago, seennotheard said:

Im imagining that you wouldn't use alts, but instead you would write a Lua script.

Which wouldn't run. Because you need to be near it to work. 

So ppl would just write that script, create an alt, park it at the hub, start it, leave it alone and play with their main toon.

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5 hours ago, Felonu said:

Scripting the market could affect balance in some ways, but I don't know how much. 

 

There really is only one other game with an economy model in place similar to what DU is planning and that's EVE. CCP will permaban almost immediately if you are found to be scripting/botting the markets with no warning or questions asked, it's down with the hammer and your account is blocked.

 

Rightly so TBH..

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Sounds like a great idea but not to sure on how it would work ? Personally I would love a app that would let me check on sales while I'm at work !   =)

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I think the ability to script purchases and sales is a bad idea in general as others have said. With players being able to create their own marketplaces I think an official API could have issues. One alternate solution would be the ability to use LUA to export orders on the market you are physically present at, which would open up the option of a third party site set up to show an aggregated list of markets updated by players. I think the eve equivalent is evecentral but I didn't play much eve so I can't swear that's correct.

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4 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

There really is only one other game with an economy model in place similar to what DU is planning and that's EVE. CCP will permaban almost immediately if you are found to be scripting/botting the markets with no warning or questions asked, it's down with the hammer and your account is blocked.

 

Rightly so TBH..

Could you tell me more about that? I don't have any experience with EVE.

Edit: I found this thread: https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/topic/221568
It seems that CCP doesn't really care?

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6 hours ago, seennotheard said:

Could you tell me more about that? I don't have any experience with EVE.

Edit: I found this thread: https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/topic/221568
It seems that CCP doesn't really care?

that thread was before they changed their eula/tos to include multiboxing.

 

viewing some (distant) market via some API/OOG tool never poses a problem (NQ too said that you might be able to check markets while you're flying for example).

With such a tool you can already do lots of cool stuff like calculating hauling revenues, margin trading oppertunities, station trading margins, finding the best spot to buy DACs, save data to generate trends, candlestick diagrams, etc

 

But if they just allow scripts to influence the markets then margin trading will only be done by bots and prices will be volatile AF. When many ppl use such a script (or the same if it's a good one) then cascading effects will take place, ruining the fun of markets (social aspect: know first who does what and which event could influence the price of some item). For emergent gameplay it's a killer.

But if they allow it then I will troll everyone who uses such a script and make them lose their money for good - cause that bot won't be able to tell the difference between man made cascades and real ones

 

 

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An example of botting/scripting we see frequently in EVE (and is dealt with swiftly when discovered):

 

Player has 100 pcs of an item and uses a script to put up a sell order for one at the lowest price. If someone buys the item the bot immediately puts up another single item for the same price. This influences the market because you may have a couple of the same items as well but choose to put it on the market for a bit higher price because there is only one item at a lower price and you know the item sells well. No need to outbid a single item right? 

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4 hours ago, blazemonger said:

An example of botting/scripting we see frequently in EVE (and is dealt with swiftly when discovered):

 

Player has 100 pcs of an item and uses a script to put up a sell order for one at the lowest price. If someone buys the item the bot immediately puts up another single item for the same price. This influences the market because you may have a couple of the same items as well but choose to put it on the market for a bit higher price because there is only one item at a lower price and you know the item sells well. No need to outbid a single item right? 

I think that's justified, since that player is willing to sell his goods at a lower price.

In the end, the buyer benefits.

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9 minutes ago, seennotheard said:

I think that's justified, since that player is willing to sell his goods at a lower price.

In the end, the buyer benefits.

that's the problem: it's not - as the script instantly always outbids anyone who tries to put work into his trading. You won't be able to sell your stuff. Ever.

Eves system automatically displays you the cheapest price too - and ppl always only see that one pricetag. When they click buy now, they ALWAYS buy from the bot. Only traders bother to actually use the market interface -

everyone else:

herp derps into the system

dock

"need. weapon. now"

searches

clicks buy

undock

As a customer you always get the cheapest price - at the cost of a real human trader who can't sell his products as he's not able to outbid everyone else. This also creates cascades of failure which I will happily abuse to manipulate the market to my needs if this is ever implemented

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2 minutes ago, Lethys said:

that's the problem: it's not - as the script instantly always outbids anyone who tries to put work into his trading. You won't be able to sell your stuff. Ever.

Eves system automatically displays you the cheapest price too - and ppl always only see that one pricetag. When they click buy now, they ALWAYS buy from the bot. Only traders bother to actually use the market interface -

everyone else:

herp derps into the system

dock

"need. weapon. now"

searches

clicks buy

undock

As a customer you always get the cheapest price - at the cost of a real human trader who can't sell his products as he's not able to outbid everyone else. This also creates cascades of failure which I will happily abuse to manipulate the market to my needs if this is ever implemented

Since I don't know anything about EVE, are there buy orders?

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6 minutes ago, seennotheard said:

Since I don't know anything about EVE, are there buy orders?

ofc - which doesn't help most ppl as

1) you need to train ingame skills to set those (which most ppl don't do as they just want to buy their stuff quickly)

2) someone needs to fulfil that order, which can take days to weeks

3) doesn't help the fact that a trader can't sell his items

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2 minutes ago, Lethys said:

ofc - which doesn't help most ppl as

1) you need to train ingame skills to set those (which most ppl don't do as they just want to buy their stuff quickly)

2) someone needs to fulfil that order, which can take days to weeks

3) doesn't help the fact that a trader can't sell his items

Well, I hope you can freely set market orders in DU O.O

Ideally, markets should have enough volume so that buy and sell orders are within a single unit of currency of each other.

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34 minutes ago, seennotheard said:

Well, I hope you can freely set market orders in DU O.O

Ideally, markets should have enough volume so that buy and sell orders are within a single unit of currency of each other.

yes you can, that's what eve does too.

 

volume has nothing to do with margins.

Just look at evemarkethelper.net

 

Tritanium (the most basic material): Buy 5,77 / Sell 2,99

Guardian (most used armor tank "healer"): Buy 231 585 968  / Sell 229 999 984

Phased plasma L (ammo): Buy 168,32 / Sell 140,00

 

If you look at the market WHERE it is sold then it looks like this (same station):

 

Tritanium: Buy 5,47 / Sell 5,51

Guardian: Buy 168,315,072 / Sell 229 999 984

Phased plasma L: Buy 168,32 / Sell 197,84

 

It doesn't depend on volume - but on WHERE it is sold (pirate station? high security terminal? outer rim?) and on supply and demand

 

 

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Glad to see an org or some one decide to make a market board and update value data often. Make life feel easier.

 

And i have question that what is API ?

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40 minutes ago, ShioriStein said:

Glad to see an org or some one decide to make a market board and update value data often. Make life feel easier.

 

And i have question that what is API ?

It stands for Application Programming Interface.

 

It's how NQ would enable people to create programs that interact directly with data from the game.  Like a marketplace app.

 

I think.  I really have no idea what that means though.  :ph34r:

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4 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said:

It stands for Application Programming Interface.

 

It's how NQ would enable people to create programs that interact directly with data from the game.  Like a marketplace app.

 

I think.  I really have no idea what that means though.  :ph34r:

Yeah, pretty much. With an API, you would be able to get market data from NQ servers.

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Yes. We absolutely need an API, it's 2018 and things like that are somewhat expected these days. 

 

If NQ wants people to write 3rd party apps for DU, then an API is an absolute must. 

 

I don't envision that they will allow us to make buy and sell orders via the API, there's a lot that can go wrong there. 

 

A market API may end up being limited such that we can only see prices and basic market information, but it would still be a huge leap forward in terms of what we can do. 

 

There's not a whole lot of reasons why they wouldn't give us an API eventually, other than assigning developer resources to develop and maintain it all. 

 

I don't think anyone should expect one to be put together by the time the game releases, but going forward after that I think that it's an eventuality. 

 

In terms of what I'd like to see people making with such an API, you can look at CryptoCurrency market charts for a good idea of what I think people will end up making: https://cryptowat.ch/ and https://cryptowat.ch/bitfinex/btcusd 

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