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Scripting and limited automation

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Are in-game scripting and limited automation two fundamentally incompatible concepts? The reason why computers were invented is to automate, and I don't see any other practical applications for scripting other then automation (including automating in-game games). 

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No, I do not thing they are fundamentally different concepts, the scripting is there to assist and give you and edge......to automate or enhance some more mundane tasks.

 

It is limited as the potential abuse of an unrestrained ability to script is not a good thing. Certain limitations need to be applied in order to give an edge, but not provide someone with a Deathstar like edge....if they are a wizard scripter.

 

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4 hours ago, Alethion said:

 

 

It is limited as the potential abuse of an unrestrained ability to script is not a good thing. Certain limitations need to be applied in order to give an edge, but not provide someone with a Death Star like edge....if they are a wizard scripter.

 

100% I have to agree with Alethion on this one.

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Play the game as it was meant to be played - with other people.

Oh, you don't want that? Well, you better become an acrobat then and fly around a bridge on your very own, trying to keep up with the world's most mentally taxing and stressful whack-a-mole. NQ won't provide you with automation to compensate for what a crew has to do.

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Sure, NQ can do whatever, but having the limits of lua scripting being arbitrarily limited seems illogical to me. I mean, if we completely took away scripting, it could be explained as the universe being like Dune. However, attempting to limit automation while providing tools for automation doesn't make sense to me from a visionary standpoint. 

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Some reasons aired already:

 

1. Server load. An eg from minecraft was mentioned by someone as valid reason.

2. Gameplay. NQ suggested that say a 20-person spaceship should require 20 players to man the full functionality of the spaceship.

3. Social. See 2. It's more successful for the game to requie player labour as part of the game's social systems. Obviously mmos suffer from bots/goldfarming...

4. Controlling scripting and determining it's use and scope is a better system for testing it's impact on gameplay

 

I'm not expecting full systems for the core gameplay loop which is when the game might be more available to more players, so long as that core game loop can already provide fun for payment for those players, successfully (afterall once you charge and release, the game is going to be critically evaluated): I think a lot more constructive feedback can take place then.

Edited by MookMcMook
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Scripting is limited by sensor and actuator capabilities. If you can make doors open automatically, but not have your cannon aim and shoot on its own, then automation is possible but limited.

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2 hours ago, 0something0 said:

Sure, NQ can do whatever, but having the limits of lua scripting being arbitrarily limited seems illogical to me. I mean, if we completely took away scripting, it could be explained as the universe being like Dune. However, attempting to limit automation while providing tools for automation doesn't make sense to me from a visionary standpoint. 

Game balance and their vision of a mmo where people socialize and work together to achieve things. And not script everything.

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Well, the point of scripting in real life is to automate as much things as possible.

 

Of course, I might have misinterpreted how NQ said they were going implement scripting: it may more Schenzen.io with coding complementing logic circuits instead of ComputerCraft with redstone logic being an aid to computer scripts.

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Also going with the Lore of DU most advance AI is BAD : think of the Terminator and in the DU lore I think its set up as that's why advance AI has ben banned but only use in the ARK ships because they need a pilot and no one can live for thousands of years with out cryogenic sleep. I think most people or perfectly fine with this story / lore for DU and yes as NQ stated they want people to be interactive and work with each other not having one person able to do something like operate a battle ship by them selves or build a AI drone army.  

 

Automation is still use but will be simplified and also helps balance the game. 

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On 10/11/2017 at 2:10 PM, 0something0 said:

Sure, NQ can do whatever, but having the limits of lua scripting being arbitrarily limited seems illogical to me. I mean, if we completely took away scripting, it could be explained as the universe being like Dune. However, attempting to limit automation while providing tools for automation doesn't make sense to me from a visionary standpoint. 

You confuse automation with artifical intelligence - like most people unfamiliar with the tertms tend to also confuse "carbine" and "rifle". 

Automation is me doing a flip-and-burn by pressing one button.

A.I. would be for me to do nothing while my ship does all the flying for me on its own on a loop.


Lua is used to make macrocommands - macro, greek word for "long" or "vast". Lua is there to perform REALLY complicated tasks for you, not for you to not need to do anything at all.

Stop asking for crap like that.

Also, the LORE is pretty clear why A.I. are not liked in DU's universe. People in that timeline of events had seen A.I. taking every aspect of their lives away and due to the A.I. not going Papa Skynet's way, they were lucky and it didn't rebel.

In fact, Aphelia (the Novark A.I.) has tha greek word for its name that means "Naivety". Take what you will out of the A.I's name, prolly they coded it to nmaive, cause naive people are spinless and are incapable of acting in a cunning way, or lack any paranoia to be subtle. There is an ancient greek saying, "aphelis osan moron". Yes, that "moron", it's the same "moron" used today, which refers to people who think like babies and the phrase literally means "naive like baby". There is a common-day phrase that has usurped that phrase of antiquity. "I wasn't born yesterday", or, you can say that Aphelia is just a "moron" that "was born yesterday" that will do whatever you ask of her, like, train you with ways to murder people or save your bacon when you die - regardless if you are a known serial killier or not.

I know, that's some heavy philosophical shit.

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15 hours ago, 0something0 said:

Well, the point of scripting in real life is to automate as much things as possible.

 

Of course, I might have misinterpreted how NQ said they were going implement scripting: it may more Schenzen.io with coding complementing logic circuits instead of ComputerCraft with redstone logic being an aid to computer scripts.

Imma qoute this because it seems like this didn't post properly. 

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1 hour ago, 0something0 said:

Imma qoute this because it seems like this didn't post properly. 

I doesn't have to compliment the logic either, the interactive elements stand well on their own. The idea is that Lua "automates" tasks by doing actions with elements, performing the actions you already can but with more precision, accuracy, and reliability. 

 

This isn't real life. Yes, in real life, you generally want every single thing to be as efficient and easy as possible. But in a game, we don't always want things to be as efficient and easy as possible, because that isn't fun. NQ have implemented limitations for game balance, because it's supposed to be fun for everyone. 

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10 hours ago, 0something0 said:

To be fair, I have no idea how much automation is/will be acheiveable with Lua because of NDA. 

The same amount of automation a mechanical keyboard can achieve - most mechanical keybaords utilise Lua for their macros.

Pretty thorough if you set it up right, but do not expect they keyboard to do things for you.

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23 hours ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

Automation is me doing a flip-and-burn by pressing one button.

I would not agree.

 

To me, automation means that when I do a flip and burn I get aided by a (scripted) process which will allow me to do this in a smooth and safe way without having to do most of the compensation going into the movement.. Much like Fly By Wire in your average modern aircraft. Or are you implying that it's a bad idea a pilot can just bank into a turn and not having to worry about a great many variables that would prevent him from flying in the first place otherwise?

 

I agree that it's good when the game will require people working together to get things done and go places. I think it's silly that you would expect that everything is still done by hand in a time when we fly a ship full of survivors into space landing on a far away world. JC made a comment that in a (big) ship each individual gun would need to be manned. Frankly it made me chuckle as it's just a silly idea in the time the game is set in and I really hope that he either misspoke or could not find the right way to express his ideas about this at the time. Combat vessels have had automated, if not fully automated, armament (sub)systems for decades  and there is no reason to enforce such mechanic onto a futuristic game setting. And that goes for many  more areas the game allows.. 

 

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19 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

I would not agree.

 

To me, automation means that when I do a flip and burn I get aided by a (scripted) process which will allow me to do this in a smooth and safe way without having to do most of the compensation going into the movement.. Much like Fly By Wire in your average modern aircraft. Or are you implying that it's a bad idea a pilot can just bank into a turn and not having to worry about a great many variables that would prevent him from flying in the first place otherwise?

 

I agree that it's good when the game will require people working together to get things done and go places. I think it's silly that you would expect that everything is still done by hand in a time when we fly a ship full of survivors into space landing on a far away world. JC made a comment that in a (big) ship each individual gun would need to be manned. Frankly it made me chuckle as it's just a silly idea in the time the game is set in and I really hope that he either misspoke or could not find the right way to express his ideas about this at the time. Combat vessels have had automated, if not fully automated, armament (sub)systems for decades  and there is no reason to enforce such mechanic onto a futuristic game setting. And that goes for many  more areas the game allows.. 

 

That's all fine and dandy,but how else is JC going to push teamwork if a single player is able to fly a Titan Class Battleship with full automated weapons?

I believe his mindset is in the right place already as manually controlled weapon systems complimet the combat ability of each crew member individually.

Furthermore,it renders expensive crafts virtually incapable without a large crew which is something great for balance purposes.

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How? By making the necessary industrial base to create such massive ships take more then one person, by using random elements lime damage control to throw a wrench into your automated machine, by forcing people to automate everything manually, by allowing fine-control and "overclocking" by manual control.

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1 hour ago, Armedwithwings said:

That's all fine and dandy,but how else is JC going to push teamwork if a single player is able to fly a Titan Class Battleship with full automated weapons?

 

I never said anything that conflicts with this comment. Negating basic and even modern day mechanics to force specific game play is IMO not the right way to go and I doubt it will turn out as black and white as some here seem to want/believe it to be. 

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6 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

I never said anything that conflicts with this comment. Negating basic and even modern day mechanics to force specific game play is IMO not the right way to go and I doubt it will turn out as black and white as some here seem to want/believe it to be. 

 

Don't get me wrong i'm aware of your sentiments towards the whole matter.

From a realistic perspective,it makes complete sense to have automated weapon systems in a universe set in a far future era.

But like the pre discussioned ramming mechanic,we ought to make some sacrifices for the sake of game balance.

If people had the avaliabilty to fight without men-power then the scale would surely tip much further towards the most wealthy individuals.

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1 hour ago, Armedwithwings said:

If people had the availability to fight without men-power then the scale would surely tip much further towards the most wealthy individuals.

 

Again, I never said anything to contradict what you are saying although I fail to see the relation with wealth here. As portrayed now I would in fact say those advocating this are looking to balance these things in favour of (large) group activities and thus eliminating the opportunity or chances for smaller groups or individuals. I fail to see how I should not be able to navigate and control a small agile fighter or ship in general on my own or with one other person.

 

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7 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

Again, I never said anything to contradict what you are saying although I fail to see the relation with wealth here. As portrayed now I would in fact say those advocating this are looking to balance these things in favour of (large) group activities and thus eliminating the opportunity or chances for smaller groups or individuals. I fail to see how I should not be able to navigate and control a small agile fighter or ship in general on my own or with one other person.

 

Because these arguments are only for big ships. With turrets (you even said it yourself) - and not about small agile fighters....

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