Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Stig92

The Economy

Recommended Posts

So I just saw video about eve online claiming that they actually employ economists to keep the ingame markets working and balanced. I don't really have experience of eve or other mmo economies , but this made me think how is DU economy going to work. I don't remember seeing too much talk on this topic at least not on the economic system in general specifically (yes that sounds strange).

 

Sure there is discussion on parts of it from mining to organisations and the economy is supposed to emerge on its own, but how the game design affects this is something the developers should probably consider. It could be very important for the game, rise and fall of organisations, way to compete between or influence other organisations or even something that might cause war. In real world at least, hard economic times have for example caused rises of more extremist views (Europe/Germany in 20s and 30s for example). A game economy might not affect people's views as strongly but its state may affect decisions they make in game. 

 

Just something I thought might need discussion. Hopefully there are other people with more experience in MMO economies. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Markets work on supply and demand so eventually they will stabilize with or without intervention somewhat though it will vastly depend on players unless NQ does step in and, more or less, standardize prices though that gets rid of a whole shipping and trade market basically so while I doubt they would it is possible that they will

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eve is really intense when it gets down to markets. Candlestick diagrams, programs to calculate best margins and to track fastest skill route to your goals.

 

It boils down to supply and demand or sell high, buy low. But the mechanics involved (skillsystem, politics, events, announcements, ...) All play a significant role. You can make billions just using mechanics and having no clue about economy. And I hope DU is like eve in this sector, because trading was fun as hell in eve.

 

You could use spies to get to know the new doctrine of a big empire and get an advantage, use infiltrators to sabotage others in using certain ships, politics for grand plans of invasions/wars, firing up a conflict between some parties, manipulate the market itself to trick others to buy or sell, and so on

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 manipulate the market itself to trick others to buy or sell, and so on

That sounds like any game with a player driven market. I may have crashed the price of a real money object in another game so i could buy more for less. I got it to somewhere around a third of what it was worth before and the market didn't recover until i inflated it so i could by more of a different object

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That sounds like any game with a player driven market. I may have crashed the price of a real money object in another game so i could buy more for less. I got it to somewhere around a third of what it was worth before and the market didn't recover until i inflated it so i could by more of a different object

Yes that's true. You can use a manifold of tactics to make money and that's the beauty of this kind of market. I made some billions in eve because I knew what doctrines were planned. Paying informants is vital here ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Supply & Demand.

 

 

It's that simple. That's how an in-game realistic economy works. EVE started WITH economists. DU is gonna be even more real... for reasons. I don't think anyone who KNOWS how to make money is going to tell you how.

 

Anjy guides you see in EVE about "How to make money" it's a scam, a WRONG guide for noobs to use to be RMT scammed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The developers have gone over it, just never as an individual topic or video. They have mentioned how the market will start/emerge and how players will keep it growing.

 

The market will start with bots that buy and sell based on everyone else to get the ball rolling. Then will slowly be taken out as the economy grows and people use the market more. Supply and demand will be the name of the game like everyone said. If mineral A takes 5 minutes to mine a single piece while mineral B takes 20 minutes to mine a single piece, the mineral B will be more expensive than mineral A (not actual times, just an example). Just like the real world

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote
On 6/9/2017 at 5:30 PM, Stig92 said:

It could be very important for the game, rise and fall of organisations, way to compete between or influence other organisations or even something that might cause war. In real world at least, hard economic times have for example caused rises of more extremist views (Europe/Germany in 20s and 30s for example). A game economy might not affect people's views as strongly but its state may affect decisions they make in game. 

 


In terms of macro economic simulation, i'm really excited about DU (because it add to the supply and demand and advanced guild mmo mechanics the possibility for the player to create and sell his own  constructs and scripts and if we come to this point the "all economic actors are players" doctrine).

According to some historians and economists, in the real world, these hard economic times (Europe/Germany in 20s and 30s for example) were caused by an overproduction crisis. Capitalists were not anymore able to find market outlets and were left with just one option to maximize their profits: decrease wages, which lead to some vicious circle.

But as it is presented, DU contrary to what is happening in the real world will not be a finite world but an ever-expanding one (even without the NPC economics). And economically, this change everything. 

We will be more in DU in a logic of Triangular Trade from the late 16th to the early 19th than Contemporary economic one. At these times, overwhelming market outlet were discover in the same time than the "New World" were. And there, contrary to what was possible in Europe, investors could not rely on former farmer to work for them exploiting these opportunities. No, they were lacking work force. At this point the same historians and economists that I evoke in the beginning  state that this situation motivated the slave trade in order for the investor to maximize their profit. 

 

But there will be a great difference, in DU, slavery (or for now robotics) is not possible. So what will happened? Will this change the situation between investors and workers due to worker relative rarity (in regards to the opportunities to exploit) and preciousness? 
In Eve, if I understand well, this situation is answered with NPC that have influence over the supply and demand and DU want to begin in this way. But what will happened when -if this time come- there will be only players as economic actors? Will any players be in position to amass sufficient capital to become an investor?   I'm very eager to see! :) 

One other question arise? If we want an enthralling and realistic game, do we have to consider the possibility to make DU, after some years, a finite world and then  deal with all the conflicts (economy driven) this can produce between organisations and players (in the case "all economic actors are players" doctrine is endorse else there will be no meaning in this)?


Maybe I make some mistakes on my post. I'll be happy to be corrected. Feel free to point some problems in my reasoning. Either way I'm very eager to read you and have your opinion about the way DU can be of some interest as a macro economic simulation and how its differences from other mmo like Eve can create new economic logic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 01/09/2017 at 4:08 PM, Weirstrass said:


...


Maybe I make some mistakes on my post. I'll be happy to be corrected. Feel free to point some problems in my reasoning. Either way I'm very eager to read you and have your opinion about the way DU can be of some interest as a macro economic simulation and how its differences from other mmo like Eve can create new economic logic.

 

The pace of game play in DU will most probably have a marked effect on the volume of market transactions.

 

In EVE, gathering resources is a large-scale operation that produces huge volumes of material in a relatively short time. The processing of those resources into ships is a simple operation (compared to DU). EVE needs to produce 1000's of ships and modules a day, because 1000's are destroyed every day.

 

In DU, the industrial output will be much lower than EVE, because every step in the production chain is slower and more complicated. In DU, resources have to be located, then mined by hand, which is a few orders of magnitude slower than EVE, where the location of resources are a known quantity, and mining is done on an industrial scale.

 

And not only will the daily volume of resources in DU be lower, but the potential use of those resources will be split between infrastructure (planetary base building, space stations, stargate construction, etc) and shipbuilding. So demand for resources might be much higher than supply.

 

In EVE, there are many small-scale mining ops (commercial mining) that continuously bring resources to market.

In DU, much of that small-scale mining output will be consumed by personal building projects, which means less resources going to market.

 

In EVE, ship losses can be replaced by making money from NPC missions or belt-ratting. That allows many players to exist purely as consumers of player-made goods. DU doesn't have that option, so everyone will be ultimately dependant on mining to generate income.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1.9.2017 at 4:08 PM, Weirstrass said:

One other question arise? If we want an enthralling and realistic game, do we have to consider the possibility to make DU, after some years, a finite world and then  deal with all the conflicts (economy driven) this can produce between organisations and players (in the case "all economic actors are players" doctrine is endorse else there will be no meaning in this)?

 

We will expand slowly (which is ofc also wanted by the devs) and people will always be somewhat near each other - because they want content (wars, people to play with, talks, ...). And even IF people spread out - markets will just be more localized. that's where daring traders come into play who could make fortunes if they buy goods in system X and ship them to system Y

 

18 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

DU doesn't have that option, so everyone will be ultimately dependant on mining to generate income.

 

or....

Piracy

Scamming

Robbing

Invading people

Raiding people

Margin Trading

Reseller

Mercs

....

 

True, the basis for all that will be mining - but way way after release not everyone has to mine to generate income. But I'm sure you meant that anyway

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Lethys said:

 

We will expand slowly (which is ofc also wanted by the devs) and people will always be somewhat near each other - because they want content (wars, people to play with, talks, ...). And even IF people spread out - markets will just be more localized. that's where daring traders come into play who could make fortunes if they buy goods in system X and ship them to system Y

 

 

or....

Piracy

Scamming

Robbing

Invading people

Raiding people

Margin Trading

Reseller

Mercs

....

 

True, the basis for all that will be mining - but way way after release not everyone has to mine to generate income. But I'm sure you meant that anyway

 

 

None of the activities you describe generate "new" money, they just redistribute the existing money.

 

Therefore, if any group or individual becomes very good at one or more of those activities, they will be very rich, while everyone else will be very poor, unless "new" money keeps on entering the system.

 

 

In EVE, the NPC missions and belt-ratting bounties continuously pump "new" money into the game.

 

In DU, the market orders placed by NQ will be the only way to get money into the system, which makes mining is the sole source of "new" money in DU.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

 

None of the activities you describe generate "new" money, they just redistribute the existing money.

 

Therefore, if any group or individual becomes very good at one or more of those activities, they will be very rich, while everyone else will be very poor, unless "new" money keeps on entering the system.

 

 

In EVE, the NPC missions and belt-ratting bounties continuously pump "new" money into the game.

 

In DU, the market orders placed by NQ will be the only way to get money into the system, which makes mining is the sole source of "new" money in DU.

 

 

Well, yes - that's why i wrote: "the basis of all that is mining" ;)

But not everyone will be mining to get money - no need for that

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Lethys said:

 

 

Well, yes - that's why i wrote: "the basis of all that is mining" ;)

 

I wanted to make my reasoning very clear.

 

NQ are currently suggesting that they will stop pumping "new" money into the system once they feel there is "enough" money in the game.

 

After that, it becomes a closed system, which means that the only way to get money will be to take it from someone else, either by peaceful means (commerce, services) or by criminal means (piracy, theft, scams, etc.). So for someone to get "richer", somebody else has to get "poorer", and vice versa.

 

 

Now, money is not necessary in itself. We could barter...

 

But the whole reason why money exists in the first place is because bartering is very slow and inefficient. It results in a lot of haggling and requires person-to-person transactions. I may have 100 iron, but I need copper. Jimmy has 200 copper, but he wants coal. So now I have to find someone that will swap my iron for coal, so I can swap coal for copper from Jimmy. All those piles of resources have to be kept in storage lockers somewhere in the world, which implies a great deal of risk, whereas "money" reserves in DU will carry no risk. How do I find someone that wants to swap coal for iron ? Spam in chat ?

 

Simple things like a buy order for copper can't exist without a neutral exchange medium like money.

 

 

The problem with NQ generating buy orders for resources is that those orders will set the "floor price" for resources, which in turn will affect the minimum price for everything that uses those resources. That removes an element of freedom from the player-driven economy.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

English (Translator used)

 

Hello NanoDot,
therefore the idea of transferring real items into virtual, so you can buy things over long distances and sell them and make sure.
Please refer 
My idea of goods traffic in DU

 

 

German (orginal)

 

Hallo NanoDot,

daher die Idee reale Items in virtuelle zu transferieren, damit kann man Dinge auch über große Entfernungen kaufen und verkaufen und das sicher.

Siehe  My idea of goods traffic in DU

 

 

mfG Die Waldfee

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To get a working game economy some facts a essential:

 

(1) You need many players

(2) Everything must be crafted by players

(3) Items must have a decay when they were used --> broken items must be repaired, recycled or bought from the market again.

(4) Economy needs Scissors-Paper-Rock or even better Scissors-Paper-Rock-Lizard-Spock principle.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In real life not a new idea, use energy like money. One cell element = 100 credits for example.  All times all players needs energy for moving, production, etc. They are ready to by or sell energy cell elements any time. If someone wont to by or sell something, they can do a transaction in universal moneys - ENERGY! This money mass not be born from nothing, and has a physical representation in game, like a gold in real life. So we have much more interested game mechanics with money, like a stocking, transporting, etc... Some examples can see in old old single space simulator Parkan.

63832bd7d5b242c60ca6faf4a52f201b7e0bc3deb69487e6aa9b43577d0a1a6e_product_card_screenshot_600.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

English (Translator used)

 

Hello Vasara,
Fuel = money, would be the simplest solution! NQ has already decided for different fuels and Quanta.

 

 

German (orginal)

 

Hallo Vasara,

Treibstoff = Geld, wäre die einfachste Lösung! NQ hat sich aber schon für verschiedene Treibstoffe und Quanta entschieden.

 

 

mfG Die Waldfee

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@NanoDot

yeah, that's the system they have in mind so far.

 

2 hours ago, NanoDot said:

Simple things like a buy order for copper can't exist without a neutral exchange medium like money.

 

Sure, contracts. I give you one char(b)on for a plex!

 

Quantas will only be introduced via mining (or possibly multiplied by producing elements and selling those to bots - who knows) and yes those bots, as long as they're active, will set a minimum price. But that's not as bad - newbros who start later can still get enough money; unlike in eve where bots and dualboxers destroy the whole market for them. (yeah, i know they can do other stuff to earn money - but mining is the obvious one when you start and don't want to pew)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Lethys said:

@NanoDot

yeah, that's the system they have in mind so far.

 

 

Sure, contracts. I give you one char(b)on for a plex!

 

Quantas will only be introduced via mining (or possibly multiplied by producing elements and selling those to bots - who knows) and yes those bots, as long as they're active, will set a minimum price. But that's not as bad - newbros who start later can still get enough money; unlike in eve where bots and dualboxers destroy the whole market for them. (yeah, i know they can do other stuff to earn money - but mining is the obvious one when you start and don't want to pew)

 

DU doesn't have a contracts system AFAIK.

 

Even if there is a contracts system, it's unsuitable for barter, because barter often involves negotiation.

 

I may put up a contract asking for 50 copper as "payment" for my 100 iron offered. But I may be just as willing to accept 2 gold and 20 copper, or 6 silver and 25 tin, etc. A formal contract system doesn't allow the flexibility required for a barter system.

 

Your suggestion that the NQ bots will benefit new players by setting a kind of "minimum wage" is very weak, because that benefit vanishes as soon as NQ withdraw the bots. And in EVE, new players can run missions, they don't have to mine at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well the bots will have to stay a long time - and if no other faucets are introduced - possibly forever.

 

contracts in du = auction house. If noone accepts your offer, either change or wait. not that flexible yeah, but with thousands/millions of ppl - it could work.

 

Ofc a free market with money is better but that will wholly depend on how they envision this - we just know that mining will be the only income for now. Wait and see, I guess

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, they did mention that they will be adding a contracts system. They haven't fully implemented the economic systems into the game yet. Those will be arriving at the end of alpha and beginning of beta, so they still have plenty of time they are going to be spending implementing a variety of market systems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did NQ said something about limited amount of mining materials ? I think they said so.
That means if a NQ bot buy those limited material, they will vanish from the game :P
I know there is plenty, but I already see a holes planet...
Also, they will constantly need to inject money in the game, from one way or another, because of player turnover, they will be constantly new joiner without money and people leaving the game with money. Plus, they will be people stacking money, limiting money circulation.

I guess the whole topic is a very tricky things, that's probably why EvE hire professional to regulate the free market.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Aesir

 

You underestimate how long it would take for those "holes" to show up. I mean, there won't be minerals EVERYWHERE, just in certain places. That's how quarries happen IRL. You dig in them then dig THROUGH them, which is what mines are. So, you won't be seeing a bajillion holes across a planet, just a few "BIG ones with a lot of tunnels in them.

At least, that's what smart people will do :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The smaller the player base, the greater the chance that one or two individuals or orgs can manipulate the market.

 

Even in EVE's relatively massive economy, people try it all the time, with varying degrees of success.

 

It will undoubtedly be tried in DU as well, there are people with years of experience in "MMO economics" by now, and DU will have DAC's from day one... :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...