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5 hours ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

I mean, there won't be minerals EVERYWHERE, just in certain places.

Ha didn't know that, cool, yet still I hope their will be enough :P
 

5 hours ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

At least, that's what smart people will do :P

You mean like me right.

 

Ok for the holes, what about the rest ? Does NQ will do only buy order on the market to inject money ?

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5 hours ago, Aesir said:

Ha didn't know that, cool, yet still I hope their will be enough :P
 

You mean like me right.

 

Ok for the holes, what about the rest ? Does NQ will do only buy order on the market to inject money ?

Yeah, there veins are not "guaranteed" to be like 50 meters below, you hasve to locate the veins of minerals, sorta like IRL.

 

According to what NQ said on money injections, they will have Bots do Buy Orders at first, until they can inject enough money in the economy, then they can simply jsut remove the bots.

It's a good plan.

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3 hours ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

According to what NQ said on money injections, they will have Bots do Buy Orders at first, until they can inject enough money in the economy, then they can simply jsut remove the bots.

It's a good plan.

I guess they will figure out another clean way to inject money after that. You always need to inject money, even a little bit.

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50 minutes ago, Aesir said:

I guess they will figure out another clean way to inject money after that. You always need to inject money, even a little bit.

Not neccesarily.They only need to inject a stable amount, then let the market handle itself. That's what CCP did with EVE Online. NPC missions in EVE are paying out of the moeny Jita taxes on trading.

As for "new people coming in, more money needed", I think deflatio nof prices will be a good thing, along with resoruces becoming the "physical" currency. I mean, hey, gold is gold, right?

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5 minutes ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

 I mean, hey, gold is gold, right?

Yeah I thought about this also, would be nice to use gold or precious minerals to trade directly :P
 

6 minutes ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

That's what CCP did with EVE Online. NPC missions in EVE are paying out of the moeny Jita taxes on trading.

Most likely, yes, but in EvE you have both a way to reduce the money quantity with taxes and a way to increase it with NPC, so player will regulate this by just playing.
I mean there is an in and an out. I strongly believe it's not just a matter of game design but a matter of money regulation.

 

We will see, but I could bet a huge quantity of coins that they will need to inject money :)
Just because if you lose your bare new starship you just bought on the market with your pocket money, then the said money is gone so is the starship, or the other way.

Or maybe I miss something ? I thought if you get kill only a part of what you have will drop and the rest will disappear ? (like EvE right)

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@Aesir

 

For Avatar, it's like EVE, you lose your gear, some is destroyed, some drops on the spot as loot.

Constructs however - like ships - are fair game for salvage, in other words, you blow up the enemy's Core Unit, you can then mine their ship :P 

 

I guess the real problem is people not asseessing the game as they should be. In EVE, you have a "virtual" crew on your ship, tha's why you can fly frigates easily. Howver, in DU, the equivalent to a frigate is a starfighter - space jets :P . 

If we follow the EVE logic of "use Frigates for roaming fleets", we can certainly see the average Joe flying a starfighter for small gang warfare.

I mean, the best selling ship in Jita is a frigate, Kestrel then Ares then Maulus. All of which are very cheap. I can see something similar working in DU.

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15 minutes ago, Lethys said:

losing ships is a faucet, not a sink ;)

 

Sure but open hundreds of faucet and ... you know :P

12 minutes ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

Constructs however - like ships - are fair game for salvage, in other words, you blow up the enemy's Core Unit, you can then mine their ship :P 

Ha nice, I thought salvage won't be their until some game extension.

 

We will see anyway, yet I feel like I will stack money as much as I can because I expect deflation :P

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Just now, Aesir said:

Ha nice, I thought salvage won't be their until some game extension.

 

We will see anyway, yet I feel like I will stack money as much as I can because I expect deflation :P

It's as good a plan as any! :D

I will just stockpile gold. Lots and lots of it :P 

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4 hours ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

Not neccesarily.They only need to inject a stable amount, then let the market handle itself. That's what CCP did with EVE Online. NPC missions in EVE are paying out of the moeny Jita taxes on trading.

...

That's interesting, when did CCP cap the EVE money supply ?

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2 hours ago, NanoDot said:

That's interesting, when did CCP cap the EVE money supply ?

a long time now? NPC missions pay out of Bank of EVE's wallet - the corp that collects in-game taxes. If you ask "why do prices go up" that's cause of EVE's playergbase going down, so less and less people having more and more money on average, thus giving the impression of money being injected in the market.

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2 minutes ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

a long time now? NPC missions pay out of Bank of EVE's wallet - the corp that collects in-game taxes. If you ask "why do prices go up" that's cause of EVE's playergbase going down, so less and less people having more and more money on average, thus giving the impression of money being injected in the market.

This report seems to suggest otherwise:

https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve-economy-update-eve-vegas-2015-report/

 

The "active ISK" in EVE has been steadily climbing since launch. EVE money supply is clearly not a closed system, even though it does appear to be well-balanced to slow down the growth.

 

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6 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

This report seems to suggest otherwise:

https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve-economy-update-eve-vegas-2015-report/

 

The "active ISK" in EVE has been steadily climbing since launch. EVE money supply is clearly not a closed system, even though it does appear to be well-balanced to slow down the growth.

 

Oh, that one, that's due to inactive accounts mostly and a bad calculation on CCP's partr on "What would happen to a walllet if a person was to delete their pilot".

But then again, VE is 14 years old :P

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6 minutes ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

Oh, that one, that's due to inactive accounts mostly and a bad calculation on CCP's partr on "What would happen to a walllet if a person was to delete their pilot".

But then again, VE is 14 years old :P

Are you suggesting that CCP have less of an understanding of their economy than you do ? ;)

 

Look at the monthly analysis for September 2015. The taxes collected from market transactions are about 15% of the income generated by mission payouts. EVE Bank would utterly unable to balance their budget with those numbers.

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14 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

Are you suggesting that CCP have less of an understanding of their economy than you do ? ;)

 

Look at the monthly analysis for September 2015. The taxes collected from market transactions are about 15% of the income generated by mission payouts. EVE Bank would utterly unable to balance their budget with those numbers.

Well ,as far as I was  aware, EVE Bank is the thing that keeps the economy going for PVErs in EVE. In either case, DU has no PVE Missions to begi nwith, and CCP can't really keep te bots goign forrever, cause tatr will create a shortage of minerals in the markets.

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3 minutes ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

Well ,as far as I was  aware, EVE Bank is the thing that keeps the economy going for PVErs in EVE. In either case, DU has no PVE Missions to begi nwith, and CCP can't really keep te bots goign forrever, cause tatr will create a shortage of minerals in the markets.

 

Again, looking at the analysis of the September 2015 numbers in that EVE report, we see that skillbooks and the LP Store took 4 times more money out of the EVE economy than transaction taxes.

 

The presence of NPC factions and corps in EVE allow for a wide range of both sinks and faucets to be easily deployed.

 

The complete lack of NPC structures in DU will make it very tricky to introduce "plausable" money sinks and faucets, for instance. What possible use could the arkship AI have for money collected by transaction taxes ? Why would the AI charge players money to buy skill training ?

 

OTOH, perhaps the plan is for DU to simply have no money sinks. If NQ plan to cap the money supply by withdrawing system-generated buy orders at some point, then money sinks would not be needed. They would be counter-productive, even.

 

I don't believe that it's practical to freeze the money supply in DU, which is what will happen when the system-generated buy orders are switched off. Just like in any other MMO, people will leave DU over time, removing large chunks of money in the process. The bots will have to interfere constantly just to keep the money supply at a specific level. Which means that the bots will constantly be interfering in the player resource market.

 

I honestly think that NQ's vision for the economy is DU's biggest weak point.

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@NanoDot

 

That''s a definite possibility on the capped circulation as of liquidity. Remeber, resrouces in DU are not regernerating like EVE, so an area CAN afford to trade in exghange rates of mienrals i.e. 1 Au == 100 Fe (1 gold unit equals 100 iron and vice versa).

Also, you got to rememer, ther is no established governemtn in DU, the market unit's Tax is paid to palyer,s not NPC corporations.

So what of the AI on the Arkship and how it can reintroduce money into the economy? Simp,e tie the AI's buy order capabilities to the AI's wallet. Money goes in from taxation, money gets introduced as Buy Orders for low tier minerals.

howver, this may lead to the most Gold Farmer frenzided game feature, so I'd say NQ's only long term viable option is introducing in money into the economy and then going "peace, I'm out".

Or - as I envision i going - people adapt a barter system and declare "the Gold Standard" as their go to currency.

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7 minutes ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

 

 

That''s a definite possibility on the capped circulation as of liquidity. Remeber, resrouces in DU are not regernerating like EVE, so an area CAN afford to trade in exghange rates of mienrals i.e. 1 Au == 100 Fe (1 gold unit equals 100 iron and vice versa).

....

Or - as I envision i going - people adapt a barter system and declare "the Gold Standard" as their go to currency.

A barter-based economy will be tedious as hell...

 

And NQ will have to seed minerals in percentages that allow that to work, otherwise it will create new problems.

 

Let's assume that minerals will be seeded in proportion to their use in manufacturing. The "rare" minerals will inevitably be needed for high-end elements, etc. That's how you control the availability of high-end components usually. If everyone now decides to use gold as "money", that introduces a huge additional constraint on manufacturing anything that needs gold. The volume of gold in the game world will not have been designed with that in mind, leading to all kinds of problems, like massive inflation of the value of gold (and anything that needs gold in manufacturing). 

 

NQ's plan to cap the amount of money in the game will simply slow down the accumulation of wealth (not stop it), whilst making general game play more tedious and frustrating.

 

If money becomes tight, people will switch to a "gold standard" or some other resource-based currency, as you've already suggested. The amount of wealth in the game will continue to increase unabated. Resources are "finite" in any given area, but infinite in supply in the entire galaxy to all intents and purposes. They have to be, if the resources run out, the game stops working. The value of resources will just rise over time as it becomes more time-intensive to exploit them and cart them back to where they are needed.

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@NanoDot

 

I mean, the GSF built their empire on the back of the Technetium carteling they set up. You wanted Technetium yo uhad to buy it from them. That's how the US irl set up the "oil for dollar" agreement. Oil is the real currency of the US, as for people to buy it, they have to buy it from THEM - and no this is not political talk tihs is a fact of economy.

 

Why can't the same happen in DU? Will exchange rates become tedious? Maybe, but you know what else is tedious work? Hauling. Or scouting for haulers. Or scouting,. Yet, people do those jobs in EVE.

The harsh reality is that we don't NEED a currency for the economy to function and we don't need NQ's blessing on allowing us to mint curency out of minerals, we can use it as is.

As for the "Realistic scarcity"... would you prefer all ships being the same? I for once would not like a bottlneck like that. Sure, a person may build a ship out of rhenium diborides alloys.

Is that ship going to be helluva tanky? Yes. Is that ship ultra rare? YES. Who is msot likely goign to use Rhenum Diboridess plated ships? Big alliance fleets. 

So, you could have "The Battleship", which is the "commercial issue" which has titanium plating, and you can have The Battlship Navy Issue - let's call it BNI, cause that ship is beautiful in EVE :D - which is the Navy Issue variant, which as you know, costs more, cause it can do so much more AND has sturdier tank.

 

So,, in this scenario, a solo player CAN make their fortune by hitting a payload of rare minerals like rhenium as they prospect and then wage options on selling its location or w/e they want to do with it. This encourages exploration, a space age californian gold ursh of sorts. But money on market units? It only creates complaicancy and people just whine "NQ, gib us free moneyz"{.

I mean, that's how I see it. People in EVE bitch Tritanum prices are at an all time low, while refusing to mine in lowsec to get the giood stuff, then the low-sec miners bitch that they don't make good return on investment due to the low-sec pirates. DU can avoid that disparity altogether by making "high-end" resources a real treasure to find while eexploring. 

By having  mienrals being rare, you make mienrs - the first sector of an economy - a real force to be reckoend with. And let's be honest, in EVE, mining corporations are a joke. I'd like knowing that mining IS a legit means of making money in DU, especially if tere are enviroment hazzards that INCREASE the cost of procuring a high-end mienral - like pultonium or uranium. Nothing says "mining is serious busienss" when the thing you mine is killing you slowlly >.>

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14 minutes ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

... I'd like knowing that mining IS a legit means of making money in DU...

Legit ?

 

Mining is the ONLY way to make money in DU, lol

 

And that's using the word "make" in it's purest sense, i.e. to create.

 

Nothing else creates wealth AFAIK, unless there's some sort of alien artifacts that can be discovered and sold to the NQ bots...

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4 minutes ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

@NanoDot

 

Yeah, but 2 years down thel ine Nq can't just indefinitely pump money int othe economy. Hyperinflation is not the solution.

And in the sense of "minerals == currency" then yes, mining is literally about printing money in D

U :P

Hyperinflation only happens when the faucets and sinks are seriously unbalanced.

 

CCP managed just fine all these years, EVE's CPI has remained almost flat since launch. Vigorous competition between player manufacturers, combined with a steady supply of minerals, and a nicely balanced set of faucets and sinks, has kept EVE's market remarkably stable, even though the total money supply has been steadily increasing for 14 years...

 

Well, as long as you ignore the spiralling cost of PLEX, which everyone assures me has nothing to do with inflation... ;)

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