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Shynras

Jetpack alternatives and "safe-designing"

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I want to highlight a few key point of the building system, that I think are actually bad design choices and that are going to make the game worse (relative to its original concept of a massive openworld sandbox with emergent gameplay). This is just my opinion, so don't take it personally. 

 

Devs mentioned a safe environment where you could design and create blueprints of ships. I'm not sure if it's still planned but I want to address this anyway:

(1)A "safe-designing" environment keeps players away from the open world, less social interactions, the world feels emptier, and this lack of activity (even if it's not a total absence of activity but a reduced rate) is going to damage the game in the long run, since the game would still feel, even if by a little, worse. It's never a good idea to split or "hide" the playerbase, expecially in a game like DU and when you don't know if there'll be enough players in the first place.

(2)We know there'll be elements capable of "printing" ships. This means that you just have to design, while the building part is left to those elements. But if you let people design in a safe environment, and then you let them build automatically with elements, you'll never see players build in the open world. So I can't see those 2 features coexist.

(3)We know that you'll be able to build with a jetpack, that will give you very good mobility. I don't like this at all, since it feels a little bit like "cheating" or "creative mode", it's not immersive. I want the jetpack to be an option, but why can't scaffolding be an alternative too? Why not a grappling hook? Why not a builder-construct? That jetpack is way too strong, it provides unmatched mobility/agility and doesn't have drawbacks. 

 

MY ADVICES:

 

(1)I know there are people out there that want to design constructs, and do that only, safely, without participating in other activities. And i'm fine with that, I think everyone should be taken into account. But if you give "a better way" to do things, stay sure that everyone will do it, you'll not see a single player build in the open world. Since there are multiple safezones already, spread over the universe, I don't really think there's need for anything else. In the worse case you could be a new player, that only wants to build, that joined after release and all the safezone land is gone:  join an org, rent a land or gain enough money to buy one. This game is not about getting what you want istantly anyway, so if you need a safe place to build, work hard and get one first.

Regarding the "I live in a war zone and I want to build safely" argument, do I even have to answer? If you're so worried about getting griefed while building in the open world, just send your builders to the closest safezone.

Regarding the "I don't have the blocks, I just want to create a blueprint": just create the possibility to enter a "design mode" where people can build with unlimited "hologram blocks", that look slightly different, so that they can still design in the open world and create anything they want.

 

(2)I don't think it's a bad idea by itself to have elements print ships (that you've already designed aka built), since it's usually boring to create copies manually. I just hope that doing that manually it's still going to be an viable option, so those elements should probably be less efficient and requires more energy/resources. 

 

(3)This is something i really care about. There are people that want unlimited freedom while designing (i seriously don't get why they don't just play with a 3d modeling software) and other that want immersion. Again, I think is important to keep different approaches viable, to let everyone choose their preferred way:

-Jetpack: consume fuel, it's the best but most expensive way to build

-Scaffolding: similar to the "scaffold" block in tekkit minecraft (not sure what was the mod), there's a scaffold element in DU. It's very cheap and reusable, easy to place and remove (and maybe you can climb it like a ladder). Doesn't offer the same mobility of the jetpack but it's cheaper

-Grappling hook: i'm not sure it's possible with the Du engine (I'd guess it is), but if it is, then you have to add it to the game. It's always a lot of fun and people love it.

-more

Then, in the "skill tree" where you can specialize yourself, you can actually improve pros and cons of those methods. A specialized builder may have a very low fuel consumption on the jetpack, and be very fast, while a newbie builder (or any guy with a different specialization), may find more convenient to use scaffolding or a grappling hook as a cheaper method.

 

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Grappling Hooks in ANY game is fun.

Just imagine shooting one at an enemy ship and taking a free-ride.

Well i guess you'd have to limit that a bit or you'd see people surfing ships in space xD But it's definitely a must (if possible).

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Well i guess you'd have to limit that a bit or you'd see people surfing ships in space xD But it's definitely a must (if possible).

Oxygen levels tho (if Oxygen will be implemented)

 

 

Anyways, I think a Construction Ship (like you see in Space Engineers with the welders and Build-Mode for ships) would be extremely fun.

Possibly a Piston-Platform as well? It'd really make the game feel... industrial. And that's good.

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hmmm, well, I want to take this in points...

You mention safe zones and the possible limitations of that type of space for those who like me only want to build. That can be resolved by simply adding permissions on your claim or plot of land if they plan on allowing folk to stake a claim, once you have your claim, have a management window that gives permissions, for example, I want You to help me on a build, or learn a technique, I will assign permissions that allows or limits you that includes allowing pvp. in a case like that then only the areas outside of your claim can be used for pvp in which case there really wouldn't be be a need for a large safe zone far beyond the spawn site. TBH, I don't think most people are going to jump right into pvp as alpha testing is just that, testing how things are running and shake out the wrinkles.

As for jet packs and such while building, In other building games I've seen they give a fly mode while building that cost no energy, float boots things like that, now if the landscape has cave systems a grappling hook is wicked fun, but as an experienced voxel builder I can tell you it bites a big uhmmm Bullet yeah bullet, to try to sculpt a statue off a grappling hook and voxel made scaffolding uses mats you will need for your builds So ideally free fly within your claim while in build mode would be best.

Not to say that there shouldn't be any grinding but its a delicate balance. at first everyone will need mats and will most likely be grinding out from the start just to be able to begin a build,  few I dare say will be caring as much about pvp as they will be more interested in testing the tools and build systems as well as how well the game handles where if any optimizations yadda yadda.

So there's my two cents worth :)

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From my understanding of the "safe building zone" it was more of a small space around a bubble shield that would cause collapse if you tried to use it to basically hide or run away from PVP. I could be totally wrong but that's just how I looked about it thus far.

 

I like your idea of being able to advance your building skills to increase the ease of building or lower the costs of jetpack fuel. Good thoughts.

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I am pretty sure the "safe zones" were the arkzones, though they would get crowded quickly, thereby forcing players out. so I don't think that would be the issue. Also, printing resources cost resources and energy, forcing players into the world. The jetpack may allow you to fly for a rather short time(like in Planetside/No Man's Sky and a bunch of other game) or be resource-intensive(Mekanism mod for Minecraft).

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I agree DU should be designed to avoid isolating designers as much as possible, but I also do not want that to hamper people's ability to design in it.  The advantage  of designing in DU, instead of separate 3D modeling software, is that it would be immediately apparent if someone tried to design something that was not possible to build.

 

In real life, designing and building tend to be distinct, but in a game like DU, they can blur together, since the methods we use for building in a game are often very much like those we use for designing in real life.  Being limited to scaffolding could make building more interesting, but it would just be a frustration when designing, when a person wants to express their ideas as easily as possible.  

 

One way of preventing people from always using factories to build constructs would be to have a relatively high set-up cost for loading a new blueprint.  That would make it very expensive to use a factory to build a one of a kind construct, while it would still be advantageous to use it to produce a large number from the same blueprint. 

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You mention safe zones and the possible limitations of that type of space for those who like me only want to build. That can be resolved by simply adding permissions on your claim or plot of land if they plan on allowing folk to stake a claim, once you have your claim, have a management window that gives permissions, for example, I want You to help me on a build, or learn a technique, I will assign permissions that allows or limits you that includes allowing pvp. in a case like that then only the areas outside of your claim can be used for pvp in which case there really wouldn't be be a need for a large safe zone far beyond the spawn site. TBH, I don't think most people are going to jump right into pvp as alpha testing is just that, testing how things are running and shake out the wrinkles.

As for jet packs and such while building, In other building games I've seen they give a fly mode while building that cost no energy, float boots things like that, now if the landscape has cave systems a grappling hook is wicked fun, but as an experienced voxel builder I can tell you it bites a big uhmmm Bullet yeah bullet, to try to sculpt a statue off a grappling hook and voxel made scaffolding uses mats you will need for your builds So ideally free fly within your claim while in build mode would be best.

Not to say that there shouldn't be any grinding but its a delicate balance. at first everyone will need mats and will most likely be grinding out from the start just to be able to begin a build,  few I dare say will be caring as much about pvp as they will be more interested in testing the tools and build systems as well as how well the game handles where if any optimizations yadda yadda.

So there's my two cents worth :)

 

Do not mix the safe zone (=zone around the arkship) which are invulnerable with protection bubbles (shields you can build that span your territory) which can be destroyed.

There is 0 PVP in the safe zone, no need to adress that with RDMS.

Plus we're not talking about alpha or beta here as those two stages of the game don't matter at all - these are there to help the devs testing mechanics and their game, not to get rich or build something lasting (because it will be wiped anyway - only the release version of the game will be final and only then the real game starts).

 

As I always pointed out, I want to avoid people standing around in the arkzone somewhere, not moving and interacting at all with the environment because they are in some kind of VR environment/creative mode/whatever to build stuff. I get that building is hard and you shouldn't limit players with some stupid limitations to it (though those artificial limitations could be used as a incentive to skill in the "building skilltree" to get better/more lasting means of building tools like more jetpack fuel, less consumption, scaffolding and so on).

But it's a fine line here and has to be seen ingame if most players only stay in such a mode or not. There should be a reason why people log on and this reason should be player interaction, socializing, grand stories of player run empires, wars, huge buildings, marvelous statues - and not an arkzone filled with people playing and building on their own

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@Munney safezones are 100% no pvp zones that you can find on planets around the universe, and there's a big one on the arkship, where everyone starts the game, and those are going to be in the game anyway, for various reasons, it's not just for builders. Indeed sculpting with a grappling hook is not that easy, but the idea is, that you're going to use jetpack+grappling hook+scaffolding and various other techniques depending on what you're building (or imagine a guy using mostly scaffolding but using a jetpack to reach a few higher positions). Anyway, there's a skill tree system that will let you specialize (depending on what skill you want to train), so if you're a builder you're likely going to research stuff useful for builders, and that means "reduced fuel consumption for jetpack" or "higher jetpack speed" to a point where for a specialized builder a jetpack is affordable enough to be used non stop (while for people specialized in something else it would be more expensive).

There's need for something that can specialize builders, so you need to give them an advantage vs people with other specializations. What kind of advantage? What I'm proposing is a good option. Hopefully those advantages are not going to restrict other players freedom (like they can only build small constructs) or keep them on par (so that you can't specialize as a builder and you're going to compete against any other player, whatever their specialization is)

 

@ShinyMagnemite As far as I know, the safe-building zone was an istanced area (it was mentioned by devs but was never said that was going to be in the game for sure) where you could access to design and create blueprints (you can't bring into the open world what you design in there, only the blueprint that you then have to build )

 

@0something0 there are multiple safezones around the universe, and since resources are limited on each planet and do not regenerate, the initial safezones after a while is going to be abandoned.

 

@BenFargo I agree. Regarding building methods, you don't have to restrict player to use only one method, they can choose between the many (like jetpack, hook, scaff, ....) each one with its pros and cons. They can even choose to use more than one method at the same time (scaffolding for easier to reach blocks, jetpack for the harder ones). And if that wasn't enough, the skill tree system would provide ways to optimize those methods (less fuel consumption for the jetpack, longer range for the hook, cheaper scaffolds,  and so on). 

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Have to remember NQ is small team small budget. All these extra little mechanics and systems when there's already something in place cost time and money, ie things they have a limited amount of.

 

The jetpack is fine, its simple and practical. It doesn't need any drawbacks because all its for is designing constructs. All you're doing is adding yet another resources to acquire to build stuff another grind. There will already be enough stuff we'll need to grind to do stuff in the game, no sense in adding little ticky tack stuff on top of that.

 

Safezones, I don't agree at all that just because they exist no one will go out? Well you have to go to collect resources and there will likely be restrictions on types and size of buildings can place in the safezone, plus thats the whole point of playing these games for LOTS of player, going out claiming a chunk of territory and setting up their own villages and citys.

 

Also you can't just play in a vacuum in these games, no matter what activity you do it'll more than likely require interaction with others players who have their own roles or venturing out to other parts of the game world. So for someone who just want to design/build ships, that's fine but he can't do it all by himself while staying in the safezone, he'll either need to be part of an org who is supplying him resource's or go out and collect them himself with or without help.

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Have to remember NQ is small team small budget. All these extra little mechanics and systems when there's already something in place cost time and money, ie things they have a limited amount of.

 

The jetpack is fine, its simple and practical.

 

Safezones, I don't agree at all that just because they exist no one will go out? Well you have to go to collect resources and there will likely be restrictions on types and size of buildings can place in the safezone, plus thats the whole point of playing these games for LOTS of player, going out claiming a chunk of territory and setting up their own villages and citys.

 

So yeah I think some of your concerns are a bit unfounded and not based on facts of how these games works.

Scaffold is easy to add (it's just a cheap/low health block), a grappling hook can come later. They're going to add a lot of elements before release, not just the important ones that make the game work, but the easy to add (to add content and depth). It's even ok if we'll get only the jetpack for release, but it should be balanced from the start to prepare the game for the addition in the future, of different "movement tools" for building. Otherwise they'll never be able to add scaffolding or a grappling hook later, because they'd need to nerf the "god mode" jetpack and people will rage at them.

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People are talking about players not interacting and standing still in some VR environment, but I was thinking that a VR environment would be something like the holodecks from Star Trek where you would acutally have to go out and build the holodeck yourself.

 

"The jetpack is fine, its simple and practical. It doesn't need any drawbacks because all its for is designing constructs. All you're doing is adding yet another resources to acquire to build stuff another grind. There will already be enough stuff we'll need to grind to do stuff in the game, no sense in adding little ticky tack stuff on top of that."

 

If the jetpack is for designing/building constructs only, then how will we keep them from being used for other purposes? Having a godmode jetpack is clearly a bad idea.

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People are talking about players not interacting and standing still in some VR environment, but I was thinking that a VR environment would be something like the holodecks from Star Trek where you would acutally have to go out and build the holodeck yourself.

 

"The jetpack is fine, its simple and practical. It doesn't need any drawbacks because all its for is designing constructs. All you're doing is adding yet another resources to acquire to build stuff another grind. There will already be enough stuff we'll need to grind to do stuff in the game, no sense in adding little ticky tack stuff on top of that."

 

If the jetpack is for designing/building constructs only, then how will we keep them from being used for other purposes? Having a godmode jetpack is clearly a bad idea.

 

The jetpack can only be used in build mode. That may or may not change later but as of now the design is the jetpack is only enabled during build mode.

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Yeah, the current system is too OP.

How though, explain that. If you can't use it in combat, can't use it while traveling on the ground from place to place, if the only time a jetpack is used is while building something whats OP?

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How though, explain that. If you can't use it in combat, can't use it while traveling on the ground from place to place, if the only time a jetpack is used is while building something whats OP?

You can use the build mode explore/scout territory without having to actually travel and stuff. Especially enemy territory. Also, it breaks immersion.

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You can use the build mode explore/scout territory without having to actually travel and stuff. Especially enemy territory. Also, it breaks immersion.

 

How exactly does having a jet pack in a space exploration game break immersion?

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How exactly does having a jet pack in a space exploration game break immersion?

Well, if you read the posts above, they were talking about a infinite fuel jetpack with....

 

Just read the posts above.

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Well, if you read the posts above, they were talking about a infinite fuel jetpack with....

 

Just read the posts above.

 

Yours is the only post bringing up that it breaks immersion, they're saying it over powered (I disagree).

 

Whether the fuel is unlimited or not is irrelevant, having a jet pack in a space building game does not break immersion.

 

Also we don't know how fast it'll be, if its bout the same speed as walking normally I don't see the problem considering people will be able to make ships and what not so we aren't exactly grounded. You also brought up being able to scout well you'd be able to do that without a jet pack so its kind of a moot point.

 

The complaints about the jet pack seem to want the game to be tedious for the sake of it. My understanding is that the core of the game is to leave the planet and explorer the universe which you can't do with just a jet pack. So the jet pack likely won't affect 80% of the game, and if you change it would make the 20% it does affect more tedious without making the game more fun.

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Yours is the only post bringing up that it breaks immersion, they're saying it over powered (I disagree).

 

Whether the fuel is unlimited or not is irrelevant, having a jet pack in a space building game does not break immersion.

 

Also we don't know how fast it'll be, if its bout the same speed as walking normally I don't see the problem considering people will be able to make ships and what not so we aren't exactly grounded. You also brought up being able to scout well you'd be able to do that without a jet pack so its kind of a moot point.

 

The complaints about the jet pack seem to want the game to be tedious for the sake of it. My understanding is that the core of the game is to leave the planet and explorer the universe which you can't do with just a jet pack. So the jet pack likely won't affect 80% of the game, and if you change it would make the 20% it does affect more tedious without making the game more fun.

Unlimited fuel is not immersive, since it's not real. Du isn't just a space building game, that's just one feature, you have to take the game into account as a whole.   A jetpack is fine, noone wants it to be removed, we just want more options to give players more choices on how to approach a certain activity (and to make those options possible, there's need for cons aswell as pros, for any of them, jetpack included). The jetpack main role, as of now, is to help builders build stuff and nothing else. Depending on how you specialize your character, you can improve its performances, so even if it requires fuel or has some cons to let other options be viable, you still have a choice to improve it and remove any cons.

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Unlimited fuel is not immersive, since it's not real. Du isn't just a space building game, that's just one feature, you have to take the game into account as a whole.   A jetpack is fine, noone wants it to be removed, we just want more options to give players more choices on how to approach a certain activity (and to make those options possible, there's need for cons aswell as pros, for any of them, jetpack included). The jetpack main role, as of now, is to help builders build stuff and nothing else. Depending on how you specialize your character, you can improve its performances, so even if it requires fuel or has some cons to let other options be viable, you still have a choice to improve it and remove any cons.

This makes no sense, it's not like you are going to watch someone pour fuel into it. If you want to stop using it for a while and RP that you've run out of fuel you can do that without making the game more tedious for other players. when you're loaded with fuel is it really gonna add much to the game to be required to drag fuel from one box into another? Having to stop building to perform a mindless task that serves no other purpose than to distract and annoy the player isn't a good idea IMO.

 

You want to know whats not immersive, not being able to use thrusters to move asteroids and other small bodies in space. It's my understanding that these are all static and can't be moved. If I'm mistaken then by all means correct me.

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This makes no sense, it's not like you are going to watch someone pour fuel into it. If you want to stop using it for a while and RP that you've run out of fuel you can do that without making the game more tedious for other players. when you're loaded with fuel is it really gonna add much to the game to be required to drag fuel from one box into another? Having to stop building to perform a mindless task that serves no other purpose than to distract and annoy the player isn't a good idea IMO.

 

You want to know whats not immersive, not being able to use thrusters to move asteroids and other small bodies in space. It's my understanding that these are all static and can't be moved. If I'm mistaken then by all means correct me.

I personally think RP is stupid in games as it largely relies on the honor system(which isn't very reliable in video games). Even more so in this situation since you are disadvantaging yourself on purpose.

 

Making jetpacks require resources makes people go out and get said resources, which is good for the DU community. It also means you can't just fly to the next planet over with the jetpacks. Also, i think the jetpack should be in-game for more then building. I think they should be used in all aspects of life from combat to exploration to transit.

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I personally think RP is stupid in games as it largely relies on the honor system(which isn't very reliable in video games). Even more so in this situation since you are disadvantaging yourself on purpose.

 

Making jetpacks require resources makes people go out and get said resources, which is good for the DU community. It also means you can't just fly to the next planet over with the jetpacks. Also, i think the jetpack should be in-game for more then building. I think they should be used in all aspects of life from combat to exploration to transit.

I agree with you that RP is stupid, that doesn't mean people don't enjoy it.

 

The point I'm making is that if you want to impose restrictions impose them on yourself and stop trying to make the game more tedious for everyone else.

 

It's better to have options rather than restrictions. If I remember right the devs said they didn't want it to be a survival game with hunger/thirst, adding fuel to the jetpack  would be another tedious mechanic like those that you have to baby sit without actually adding any meaningful gameplay.

 

Also you can't leave the planet with the jetpack.

 

There is an entire universe to traverse and colonize, there will be plenty of uses for resources.

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Eh, the way I see it, some ships will be built in space, so there's no need for scafolding.


But for things like planetary construction, like for buildings or statues, then yeah, MAYBE it is needed to use a scaffold, if the jetpack drains stamina / energy. NQ said "unlimited jetpack" in buid mode around a cosntruct of yours, not "free Jetpack" after all.

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