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Piracy != Griefing


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So it looks like we all agree that at the very least, griefing is doing something to intentionally anger another player or ruin their day, for the sole purpose of doing so, by damaging something of theirs or killing them, right? (This is of course assuming they didn't do it to you first, or just plain had it coming.)

It looks like we also agree on the point that the original poster was trying to make: piracy is not the same as griefing.

 

So the debate seems to be: how much more should fit into that category, above and beyond the basics. As all the previous posters have shown, this is very different from person to person, depending on how they intend to play, and how successful they become. What constitutes unforgivable griefing to one person will be merely a minor setback to another.

 

That being said, I don't think anyone is going to change their personal opinion on what they consider griefing regardless of what measures NQ does or does not take to prevent what THEY (NQ) ultimately determine griefing to be.

 

Saying, "Chill, what I did isn't griefing according to NQ," won't make the other person any less upset at you if they consider your actions to be griefing. In fact, it may come across as smug, and land you squarely in their crosshairs for a mercenary hit.

 

So, let's keep it civil please! :)

 

Not picking on anyone, or saying it has gotten out of hand (yet,) but the conversation seems to be headed that direction, so, just a friendly reminder. :)

 

Just know that you pirates who overstep your bounds too often will face retribution on two fronts: the disgruntled victims of your actions, and your own peers who have become disgusted with your behavior.

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I'm seeing a lot of people associating the noble lifestyle choice of Piracy with low-class griefing. This is completely untrue. While some pirates may be griefers and some griefers may be pirates, Pir

I feel that the community team may have quite a bit of work on their hands with all the "HE DONE GRIEF ME" reports. Lets just hope they don't get a shoddy automated system to deal with it.   In term

I do like any easy to answer discussion.   Piracy =! Griefing , however Piracy ∩ Griefing ≠ ϕ . 

I mean, we got to expect some people won't understand the concept of "borders" at first in the game. They wil lget into an area they shouldn't and they are gonna be ganked by pirates and the poop-fest will reach astronomical levels of saltiness, with reports being thrown around. That's what people have to distinguish. Going into a dangerous area? You got ganked? You lost your overly expensive mining barge (essentially a giant container in DU's context) ? Tough luck, risk and reward. Sometimes, the risk is too high and if the money ain't worth the risk, don't take it.

 

Can't afford to lose that ship, or rebuild it?  DO NOT LEAVE A SAFE ZONE WITH IT.

 

Overstep our bounds? We are pirates. By definition, we live outside the constraints of your laws. My org, at least, allows any of our targets a chance to keep their ship relatively intact by giving up their cargo or paying us. We may fire until your weapons are disabled before leaving the area, but we won't completely destroy your ship. It's nothing personal unless you intentionally grief or harass one of my members, then you will see how much of an asshole I can be.

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Just know that you pirates who overstep your bounds too often will face retribution on two fronts: the disgruntled victims of your actions, and your own peers who have become disgusted with your behavior.

Seems like that should be true for any player who "oversteps the bounds". I don't know why you limit that to "pirates".

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May not be related to topic, but I just thought that if people were going to complain to NQ that their ship was destroyed because someone thought it would be fun to do so, and they want their ship back, I should make an insurance company. Emergent gameplay solves the problem yet again!

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May not be related to topic, but I just thought that if people were going to complain to NQ that their ship was destroyed because someone thought it would be fun to do so, and they want their ship back, I should make an insurance company. Emergent gameplay solves the problem yet again!

 

 

Make it a partial recovery and ask for a killmail on the construct of an insured client and store insurances in the form of jobs (that way insurance needs refreshing and you can't be scammed ) :P

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Make it a partial recovery and ask for a killmail on the construct of an insured client and store insurances in the form of jobs (that way insurance needs refreshing and you can't be scammed ) :P

Does DU have killmail in the same fashion as EVE? Because I don't see a way that would work given the vast amount of things you can do to a construct (board and kill the crew, steal it from dock, damage it slightly, etc.).

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Seems like that should be true for any player who "oversteps the bounds". I don't know why you limit that to "pirates".

Very true! Pirates just happen to be the topic of discussion, but it certainly applies to everyone. In fact, pirates may very well be a tool used by those without the skills or equipment to exact revenge themselves!

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Very true! Pirates just happen to be the topic of discussion, but it certainly applies to everyone. In fact, pirates may very well be a tool used by those without the skills or equipment to exact revenge themselves!

And we will certainly sell these types of services :)

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Does DU have killmail in the same fashion as EVE? Because I don't see a way that would work given the vast amount of things you can do to a construct (board and kill the crew, steal it from dock, damage it slightly, etc.).

A good feature to ask the devs to add in-game. Voxels destroyed = market average cost = insurance check. A construct thus has a market value and a material market value. Your insurance covers the material market value. A kill mail ensures the core unit of a ship was destroyed, thus under insurance check clauses. The kill mail could even show how much combat damage was caused in voxels destroyed before the core unit popped, so a self destruct may be prohibited as far as insurance scams go. A golden ship may cost more to insure than an iron ship, as gold may cost more in the market.

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Saying, "Chill, what I did isn't griefing according to NQ," won't make the other person any less upset at you if they consider your actions to be griefing. In fact, it may come across as smug, and land you squarely in their crosshairs for a mercenary hit.

If those special snowflakes can't handle what NQ writes in their EULA then they shouldn't play the game. Easy as that. There will always be some cases which have to be dealt with individually because it's not clear if the EULA was broken or not.

 

 

EVERY PLAYER needs to read (I know that 99% won't do it) and understand the EULA and accept it in order to play. Not reading it doesn't give you any right to judge if that was griefing or not.

 

That document is everything you will need for the difference of griefing to normal PvP. Otherwise every non consensual PvP is griefing which would kill the game entirely

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I have nothing against piracy. In fact, I love encountering pirates. But proper pirates that is, ones who you can forep.... errr.... roleplay with a bit, and who actually try to get the most out of their spoils. Including kidnapping for ransom, gathering information, giving the pilot an option to surrender their loot as there's less chance for it to be destroyed in that case, and higher chance that the pilot would do the same thing next time instead of trying to fight them or run or suicide... Those kinds of pirates, who you can share some rum with. Not the kiddies who just want to pew pew at things for absolutely no reason other than the sake of pew pew and call themselves "pirates" :P

 

But hey - there will be the former and the later in every game. Everyone plays differently, and has a different moral for their character (or themselves?) in such games. In EVE for instance, as an FC I never allowed people to pod enemies. Insubordination was dealt with harshly. It was my version of "honor on the battlefield", and showing respect to a good fight.

 

** (And also, tactically, and something which many people who whined about such orders didn't understand - including to my immense frustration some senior FC's - was that I also wanted to delay the time it would take the active enemy pilots to regain access to a combat-ready vessels.) **

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If those special snowflakes can't handle what NQ writes in their EULA then they shouldn't play the game. Easy as that. There will always be some cases which have to be dealt with individually because it's not clear if the EULA was broken or not.

 

 

EVERY PLAYER needs to read (I know that 99% won't do it) and understand the EULA and accept it in order to play. Not reading it doesn't give you any right to judge if that was griefing or not.

 

That document is everything you will need for the difference of griefing to normal PvP. Otherwise every non consensual PvP is griefing which would kill the game entirely

 

I've been working in the hosting industry for over 15 years. I have yet to meet a single person who's actually read the terms of service. I doubt any more than a handful of people will read NQ's EULA.

 

I have nothing against piracy. In fact, I love encountering pirates. But proper pirates that is, ones who you can forep.... errr.... roleplay with a bit, and who actually try to get the most out of their spoils. Including kidnapping for ransom, gathering information, giving the pilot an option to surrender their loot as there's less chance for it to be destroyed in that case, and higher chance that the pilot would do the same thing next time instead of trying to fight them or run or suicide... Those kinds of pirates, who you can share some rum with. Not the kiddies who just want to pew pew at things for absolutely no reason other than the sake of pew pew and call themselves "pirates" :P

 

But hey - there will be the former and the later in every game. Everyone plays differently, and has a different moral for their character (or themselves?) in such games. In EVE for instance, as an FC I never allowed people to pod enemies. Insubordination was dealt with harshly. It was my version of "honor on the battlefield", and showing respect to a good fight.

 

** (And also, tactically, and something which many people who whined about such orders didn't understand - including to my immense frustration some senior FC's - was that I also wanted to delay the time it would take the active enemy pilots to regain access to a combat-ready vessels.) **

 

I like this guy. I also like foreplay and rum. Bit of laser exchange to get things goin, some rum to finish up :)

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I've been working in the hosting industry for over 15 years. I have yet to meet a single person who's actually read the terms of service. I doubt any more than a handful of people will read NQ's EULA.

 

 

I like this guy. I also like foreplay and rum. Bit of laser exchange to get things goin, some rum to finish up :)

Exactly, but those people will whine anyway. All I'm saying is: no matter what you/some carebear/some pirate define as griefing - all that matters is what NQ writes in their eula. And I will definitely do everything what's allowed in there, even if it pisses off people. Cause not knowing doesn't mean you're right or helps your case of "mimimimi I lost my ship".

 

Its more fun to be the honorable singing-ransom pirate, but if I dislike someone, I'll grief the he'll out of them.

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I have nothing against piracy. In fact, I love encountering pirates. But proper pirates that is, ones who you can forep.... errr.... roleplay with a bit, and who actually try to get the most out of their spoils. Including kidnapping for ransom, gathering information, giving the pilot an option to surrender their loot as there's less chance for it to be destroyed in that case, and higher chance that the pilot would do the same thing next time instead of trying to fight them or run or suicide... Those kinds of pirates, who you can share some rum with. Not the kiddies who just want to pew pew at things for absolutely no reason other than the sake of pew pew and call themselves "pirates" :P

 

But hey - there will be the former and the later in every game. Everyone plays differently, and has a different moral for their character (or themselves?) in such games. In EVE for instance, as an FC I never allowed people to pod enemies. Insubordination was dealt with harshly. It was my version of "honor on the battlefield", and showing respect to a good fight.

 

** (And also, tactically, and something which many people who whined about such orders didn't understand - including to my immense frustration some senior FC's - was that I also wanted to delay the time it would take the active enemy pilots to regain access to a combat-ready vessels.) **

Hey, if NQ adds implants, more of a reason for people to parley. Oh, sorry, parrrrrrrrrley. 

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May not be related to topic, but I just thought that if people were going to complain to NQ that their ship was destroyed because someone thought it would be fun to do so, and they want their ship back, I should make an insurance company. Emergent gameplay solves the problem yet again!

 

The IBO have mentioned that they're doing "insurance," but from reading their statement it sounds like they're focused on cargo insurance more than other kinds. Of course they could expand later.

 

Overstep our bounds? We are pirates. By definition, we live outside the constraints of your laws. My org, at least, allows any of our targets a chance to keep their ship relatively intact by giving up their cargo or paying us. We may fire until your weapons are disabled before leaving the area, but we won't completely destroy your ship. It's nothing personal unless you intentionally grief or harass one of my members, then you will see how much of an asshole I can be.

 

You cross the line from being a slight nuisance to a constant detriment to parts of society, civilisation will attack. I mean, in the early game the ring at the edge of the Arkzone will be one of the most tense places in the universe. It's prime piracy territory. Keep that raiding up once that area turns into a city and it's the jurisdiction of the police and they'll hunt you down. It's just an example, but you have to understand that people will respond when their bounds are overstepped, not yours.

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The IBO have mentioned that they're doing "insurance," but from reading their statement it sounds like they're focused on cargo insurance more than other kinds. Of course they could expand later.

 

Insurance for cargo? I can't see any problem with scams on that.

 

There's a reason insurance companies IRL insure assets only. Asset destruction / theft, can be quantified. Cargo theft cannot be quantified -- or validated for that matter.

 

As I told Jake insurance only works in material cost. That's the only thing an insurance company can cover and the only thing they are interested in covering. On the bright side, you only got to play for the Blueprint you want to build the ship out of again (as Blueprints have limited uses if you don't own the MBP - Master BluePrint).

 

As of the "what if I steal a ship, insure it and then destroy it" arguement... I mean, you can always sell the ship for more money, than paying for an insurance, then totaling the ship for a bonemeal's worth of profit.

 

But hey, don't mind me, I am just dropping some mad wisdom y'all :P I'd like to see in-game orgs that insure cargo. It will probably work out alright.

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The IBO have mentioned that they're doing "insurance," but from reading their statement it sounds like they're focused on cargo insurance more than other kinds. Of course they could expand later.

 

You cross the line from being a slight nuisance to a constant detriment to parts of society, civilisation will attack. I mean, in the early game the ring at the edge of the Arkzone will be one of the most tense places in the universe. It's prime piracy territory. Keep that raiding up once that area turns into a city and it's the jurisdiction of the police and they'll hunt you down. It's just an example, but you have to understand that people will respond when their bounds are overstepped, not yours.

No doubt, I expect to be attacked. I expect to be hunted. But then, I am a real pirate, not some angry tween griefer who went that way because mommy didn't hug him enough.

 

I concur with Twerk on the insurance thing. I doubt cargo will be insured. Too much potential for scam.

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Just to clarify, when I mentioned, "overstepping your bounds," I was referring mainly to acting in a way that gives your peers (other pirates) a bad reputation. (Above and beyond the "bad" rep of being a pirate. :) )

It is true that if you push society too far, you will probably regret it as well.

 

I never meant that pirates should try to operate within the confines of the law....because obviously....piracy is outlawed.

 

I see giving your target a chance to surrender and disabling the ship as perfectly acceptible concepts in the world of piracy, and doing so is exactly the type of conduct I hope to see!

 

And if someone messes with one of your crew for no reason, I would expect nothing less than retaliation in full to the party responsible.

 

Happy Hunting! :)

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This will be a hot topic for a long time to come, partly because how people view piracy in any setting is all subjective to the individual. One mans gourmet steak could be a steaming pile of poopoo to another.

 

Tbh, play the game how you want to. It's why we play games. The emergent stuff will happen naturally, and it could be for or against you. It just is what it is. I just hope players can learn to accept others will play differently, and have a different view on things from their own. I don't think anyone is really going to care if you go hunting down some player because they were killing a bunch of players at a stargate. It's when you make it personal is when it stops becoming fun for anyone involved. I agree there is shit behavior that shouldn't be tolerated, and that's whatever NQ decides is good or bad. If there is a valid problem child, then they'll be dealt with accordingly by developer staff (so long as they are reported appropriately). 

 

One day I may give every passerby free shit for no reason, the next I may blow everyone up indiscriminately. Doesn't make me a terrible person behind the avatar, and if that's how individuals want to see things, and take it personal, maybe you should step back and realize we're all playing a game. I see this knee jerk reaction the most whenever any form of PVP is involved, light hearted or not. Not to say I discount others' misfortune from having their base/ship blown up, I understand it probably sucks to have that time invested, but you chose to invest it in to a virtual world subject to others' actions. What happens to your stuff is no one else's fault but your own. 

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That may be true, as long as people don't get upset when someone retaliates for being "blown up indiscriminately", and takes out THEIR ship or base!

 

Hey, what's good for the goose...

 

Like you said, a lot of the "boundaries" will emerge through normal gameplay, people will learn how far they can push their luck before it backfires, etc.

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That may be true, as long as people don't get upset when someone retaliates for being "blown up indiscriminately", and takes out THEIR ship or base!

 

Hey, what's good for the goose...

 

Like you said, a lot of the "boundaries" will emerge through normal gameplay, people will learn how far they can push their luck before it backfires, etc.

 

You're asking the impossible.  People will get upset no matter how honorably or dishonorably their builds are destroyed.  In the end they are out of a lot of time and work either way.  It's how you deal with it in the aftermath that matters.  Do you go into a red rage and make vengeance your main priority and go on a killing spree?   Or do you learn from the experience and spend the time sending out spies, building back up, changing tactics, running drills, planning the perfect plan and then go after your revenge? 

 

But here we are again.  Do either of these responses automatically make you a griefer?  Maybe, maybe not.  Could be that the pirates are the ones who "technically" get griefed the most often from folks who can't let go of their anger over a perfectly legitimate pirate attack.

 

I think this is another one of those things that will need to be taken on a case-by-case basis.  IMO that's one of the main things wrong with most societies.  Everyone wants blanket laws for every little thing and that never works because people are all different and no two encounters happen under the same circumstances.  It's an exercise in futility.

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