Moosegun

And here we have a fine example

- purchased an open world pvp game without actually wanting open world pvp CHECK
- solo / small player, takes 2/3 weeks to build ship CHECK
- now wants to completely remove pvp from the game apart from large org CHECK
 
IF they did your suggestion, my whole org quits..... as will most others I know who bought into this game from the start

Agreed, the people who are the most vocal here are the types who spent 4 weeks building an intricate ship out of aluminum, with fancy greebling, forgot to blueprint it, and then flew off to Ion, or Jago, or some other remote planet, and got themselves blown up.  The old Eve adage of "Don't fly anything you can't afford to lose" still rings true in DU.  The other alternative is to join a Nation type org and pay taxes to ensure your safety.

Said no game company in history.  The game will be designed around those who buy a monthly subscription.  If it turns out to be people who avoid PVP like the plague, expect a lot more safe zones.  If the majority of players play solo or with a small group of friends, expect the game to develop around that.  Even if it cost others a bit of fun in the process.  This isn't an avant garde art project, this is a business.
 
Gankers and Griefers can make things interesting and add danger to a game that is mostly without active chaotic content (other than bugs).  But they are a extreme minority of the purchasing players.  Give them too much leeway and this game will be deader than Rubies of Eventide.
 
There is NO PVE other than fighting the laws of physics to get from planet to planet.  Period.  I doubt they could add a PVE element to the game even if they had any interest to.  So this game has to have a PVP aspect, there is no way around that or we will simply run out of content, quickly.  But it is a balancing act, and not an easy one.

So are you saying pirating is less lucrative than trading? now that is an admission, might get you thrown out of the pirates guild.

Great post but you have slightly missed my point, I am not interested in my opinion, I am interested in the DEVS sticking to THEIR opinion, which has been very open and honest from the start, that there will be limited safe spaces (sanc moon) and the rest will be self governed open pvp. 

I am interested in large player made governance, I am interesting in building a civilisation and civilisation comes with unified defence.  I have no issue with solo hermit players at all, I have an issue when they want to divert the game from the devs stated path.  If people do not want open pvp, why did they buy a game which open publicised it would be the case, I will tell you why, because they knew if they complained enough it would change....... and I can see it coming.  Solo hermit do nothing to contribute to civilisation, nothing to make the world bigger or better, they just offer soft targets when the fighting does start.

Please note that all of my opinion are solely based on NQ giving us all the tools we need to properly implement player made security / defence.  I STRONGLY believe that this includes some sort of robust offline protection, and generally strong defence.  NQ have also gone on record that they will strongly favour the defender AND that offence pvp will have to be planned to be successful.  Still interested to see who they are going to achieve this.

Did like the shitting in my hand comment lol

Then this game isnt for you. Same people cry over and over about being ganked in eve. I dont give a fucking shit what their reasons are, because they are wrong. Point blank. Because the DEVELOPERS of eve said high sec isnt safe. The DEVELOPERS of NQ said the majority of the universe will be open pvp. I don't go to carebear games and whine and complain why I can gank someone, instead I just go to a game that let's me (eve).  People will argue about money, saying a developer should do whatever brings in the most money but that is just absurd. They are trying to make a game, their game, and a somewhat unique one. 
 
Here is another thing, I'm more valued customer than the solo carebear. There is no denying it. A lot of my pvper friends in eve sub lots of alts with our credit cards, and purchase lots of Plex. Same will happen in DU. Some months me and a buddy would spend over 1k a month on eve. He subs 12 accounts with his CC, I do 6. And we buy plex packs. NQ already knows they if they go back on their promise of freedom and open world and player driven they will lose massive money, because at that point they are backing off on the original vision they sold us on, the reason we even backed the game.

That's exactly how it is. Mostly at least.
The point is, it's not wrong.
It is a voice in the choir, who wants to be heard. The same way you make yours heard and express your opinion.
It doesn't matter if you can't understand the reasons for playing solo in an MMO. Nobody can understand everything about everyone. What is important is that they recognized the existence of different points of view.
Which is what happens in an MMO, which is basically a social container.
And if you accept the risk of pvp and what it entails is your choice. That others may or may not share.
This does not automatically give you wrong or right.
You accept it.
Others don't.
Personally: this is a game. I'm here to have fun. If the pvp becomes insiscriminate and everywhere, I will move to the sanctuary moon and greetings. I'll dig there and probably get bored and drop the game.
Do you know why?
Because pvp in a sandbox MMO makes me shit in my hand. I'm honest.
It's not the pixels.
But the comparison. The sense of helplessness and abuse that I would suffer, the idea of being attacked while I'm doing something that has nothing to do with pvp.
I don't have to "be strong". It's a game. I have to have fun. If I don't enjoy it, I cry and quit.
This is what happens to non-pvpers.
I don't care if you understand it or not.
I care that you understand that if you don't understand or share a thing that isn't automatically wrong.

I actually do a LOT of this at the moment, finding the market is far too fluid to know where to focus efforts medium long term.  I am finding myself building a lot of independant short run machines to test markets, rather than some of the super computers I see built.  Still brilliant community tool, I use the software for work so will defo pick up the xml

With Beta now out for several weeks, I have been inundated with requests about my simple way to plan factory production lines, that I had shown off during the games Alpha.

Needless to say, since the Beta release, I have been hard at work as a Community Helper and also as the Super Legate of my Guild. But alas, I have finally found some free time to sit down and share a way to make the Industry designing of DU go from Hellish to Simple!

First off:

Firstly I just want to say that this method I will be sharing does NOT replace building calculators, but instead works in tangent with them. A crafting calculator may well tell you all the numbers you need, but it doesn't help organise it all. That is where this will come in to play.

Also it is important that I credit Juvenious, who initially inspired me to make this and showcase it off in Alpha, which garnered more attention than I ever thought possible, and would like to thank him for his encouragement and help in laying out the ground work. Be sure to visit his Discord *HERE* where he is collecting / making up further standards to help simplify tasks.
 
So what is it?
 
The idea was to create a unique set of shapes, that represent one of the industrial factory units in the game, whilst keeping them simple, elegant and familiar in some way to their related task. Then they are placed into a Legend, something that shows you their representation, along with other information as how to interpret the diagrams fully and easily.
 
In essence, we get this, the SL Factory Standard Legend:


As you can see, a lot of the shapes will either look like a basic silhouette of the industry unit they represent or have some other relation to their purpose. The colour coding is also a massive addition to helping keep things simple, as it then allows you to categorise the industrial units together, helping you keep track of the production line in game, with the colours & their order chosen to mimic that of popular MMO games item grades.

* Please note: The Tier system for the Standard is different to that of the one shown in game. Simply put, the differences are:
- In DU, the level of components and subcomponents is broken down into: Intermediary -> Complex -> Functional -> Exceptional. With there being Basic, Uncommon, Advanced, Rare & Exotic tiers.
- In the Standard, it is broken down simply by what the requirements are of the component. i.e. Al-Fe Alloy would be Tier 1, as it requires just Pure to make, which is Tier 0. A Warp Cell would be Tier 5, as the highest tier subcomponent needed to make them, is a Tier 4. Basic, Uncommon etc can be seen as a Grade of item, but does not hold any weight in the Legend or diagrams.
 
This is all very well, but how can I get it?

So to get started, you will want to head over to https://diagrams.net which is completely free and does not need an account. All your documents are saved in real time, to your Google Drive.

The other thing you will need is a copy of the Standard Legend I have created. Luckily, I can easily share this with you on here through an XML file that can be imported into the website, allowing you full access to all the shapes and their formatting that I use. The Legend has gone under several updates already and may change to improve functionality so do keep checking back.
 
SL Standard 1.5.xml
* There is currently an issue with downloading attachments on Forums. You can PM me or visit:
Novean Institute of Standards discord
Planet DU

To upload the XML file, you will want to follow this image below:


(Please note: Select Device if you downloaded the XML file)

This is all great, but how do you use it, exactly?
 
Once you have the XML file uploaded, a blank page waiting for you to start populating, the next thing you're going to want to do is start putting down the relevant icons needed for each individual, unique blueprint that is required, and group them into the Tier colouring system. Once this is done, simply link the icons together, to show where they need to feed into.

This may sound simple... But it could still be absolutely hell, with a plate of spaghetti in the middle. So here's an example:

 
So as you can see above, this is how anyone without talents would want to make TCUs for themselves. For individuals, you could simply remove one of the Assembly Line M units and half the numbers to be able to make 1 TCU for your personal endeavours.

There are some simple, but profound guidelines I follow when making diagrams which I can share with you. These are:
1) Never cross over any lines. If you find yourself boxed in, put the supply in later on, with the containers name for reference to the source. i.e. "Tier 1C"
2) Ensure that your lines always feed from left to right. This will stop any confusion in what is feeding into where. An exception can be seen in the image above, where a feed is coming from Tier 3A, up and looping into the Uncommon Power Transformer, which is fine as the only other connections its joining onto are from other containers, which a container cannot feed into another container without the help of a transfer unit. And we can see there is no transfer unit on the diagram.
3) Always name your containers and keep track of how many links they need to output to. If you find you are over the limit of 10 links out, look into either splitting up your base production to feed into a 2nd container, use a transfer unit for a 2nd container and/or increase your talents to reduce the build times, resulting in needing less industry units for efficiency.

So? What are you waiting for? Get drawing!

Practice makes perfect, after all  And speaking of such, if you have any feedback or issues with this post, the XML file itself or have any other concerns or questions, please post them here without reservation!

-Soulinks

This is rich. I love threads like these because someone at some point is gonna accuse us of being psychopaths and sociopaths.... You likely will get banned for that if you keep it up. They don't allow name calling here. 
 
Risk vs reward is the most honest and realistic resource sink there is if there is no NPCs or PVE. You guys call PVPers the minority... But why are some of you activating mutual defense treaties? And why are some of you complaining regarding removing safe zones if there are no pvpers out there? 
 
There are massive pvp orgs in this game.... We will fight each other. We want to fight each other... We plan on waging war on each other. But we are gimped at the moment. So because we are so limited we have to hunt the easy prey. Turn us loose and let us run... We will find each other and be less likely to be camping your slow boat routes. 
 
Or keep it the way things are and the moment you try to come out we will shoot your ships.... Interdiction is a planned feature as well... What happens then? 
 
You may have to work with other orgs.. in a team game.... Who would have thunk it. 

if you are not sure if you are in and out, you park on the edge simples. 

Just add a BIG RED SECTION down the centre of each market, if you land in that section you get a warning - SHORT STAY PARKING if your vehicle is left here for more than 4 hours it will be DELETED with all its contents, this leave the edges for longer term parking / marketing but the main section of the landing for proper short term parking.
 
If some of these scruffy muppets lose some ship then there you go.
 
Did you really hit a space station at 10km?  Was your radar broken or were you afk?

The other solution is to remove any alloys T2 from Alioth / Madis / Thades and there moons.  So players that are scared of losing pixels can potter about in safe zone, and those of us who dont mind heading out into space can bring back the good stuff from them.

I am an industrialist trader but I am 100% for open pvp in as many areas a possible but ONLY when NQ gives us the tools we need to combat it
RDMS to include shared KOS / Friendly lists of other orgs players The ability to store information on player who attacked org assets PvP is vital as a means to add risk to a game that has none, it add values to products and gameplay.  Without any NPC's there needs to be pvp to create a sink for all the wealth being created.  NQ are clearly in no rush though, development to date 100% suggests that they are happy for us to keep building up civilisation before we start to knock some of it down and I think that is a good thing.  The fact that PvP updates arent even in the first part of the roadmap suggests how important NQ place it in the big scheme of things.  Think we are a good 3-6 months of relaxing of safe zones / atmos pvp.

Whilst i am not a fan of restrictions on elements, I would like to see a maximum of +1 weapon size to core size (or even +0).  So an XS core can field a maximum of S weapons and so on, this will solve part of the issue with min - max pvpers using the best of xs detection and larger weapons.  

The problem is that most pvpers dont want fair, they want easy, they will exploit the shit out of anything they can to get an advantage, then most will cry and leave if the game tries to bork that advantage.  Anyone flying these 'borg' cubes clearly have no class, no interest in fair, they will simple move onto the next exploit and big ugly ship.
 
They should also remove ALL voxel defence after two layers of peneration, so stop voxel layering abuse.

Why do you need an NPC to tell you what to do?  The only thing shallow here is your imagination.  You have to make you own gameplay loops, you want to start business empire you can do that, you want to start a ship building company, a taxi company, repairs, transportation, security, pirating you can do ALL that, you just do have some NPC telling you what to do.  I understand some people dont get that, people are too used to certain types of games, they struggle with something different.  Hell you could start a racing team if you want, build a race track.....

I NEVER struggle to find something to do, infact i struggle with not having the time to do everything.

If you are trying to do everything yourself and live completely solo you are playing a role, A HERMIT...... which is a bloody tricky role to play.  I do get what you are saying about player made jobs to be ingame, I cant wait until it is, but until it is, how difficult is it to join and org with a job board (there are plenty) and find ways to earn money.   OR just pick a certain range of products, sell them on the market and buy the stuff you need.  Solo doesnt mean self sufficient, in a game like this they cant make it so solos can easily be self sufficient or it would be TOO EASY for everyone else.  A good example being materials, all the people complaining about the changes on this thread has made look into setting up an operation to make and sell materials to them lol.  Different way at looking at the game i suppose, some people see a problem, i see people with a problem as an opportunity.

We had a player join us recently who we sent took out and set up on another planet, he can run the site himself and owns HIS OWN land their too, all he has to do is fill some crates with certain things and which we pick up and pay him for at above market rate.  He earns over 1 million a day JUST from the stuff he does for us.  All because bothered to join a flexible org.

If you are trying to do everything yourself and live completely solo you are playing a role, A HERMIT...... which is a bloody tricky role to play.  I do get what you are saying about player made jobs to be ingame, I cant wait until it is, but until it is, how difficult is it to join and org with a job board (there are plenty) and find ways to earn money.   OR just pick a certain range of products, sell them on the market and buy the stuff you need.  Solo doesnt mean self sufficient, in a game like this they cant make it so solos can easily be self sufficient or it would be TOO EASY for everyone else.  A good example being materials, all the people complaining about the changes on this thread has made look into setting up an operation to make and sell materials to them lol.  Different way at looking at the game i suppose, some people see a problem, i see people with a problem as an opportunity.

We had a player join us recently who we sent took out and set up on another planet, he can run the site himself and owns HIS OWN land their too, all he has to do is fill some crates with certain things and which we pick up and pay him for at above market rate.  He earns over 1 million a day JUST from the stuff he does for us.  All because bothered to join a flexible org.

I think there is a big difference between playing solo (completely self sufficient) and playing solo but still being involved in civilisation.  It seems to me that the people who are having issues are those that was to be complete independent from civilisation, which is NOT what the game was advertised as.  WHY does the game need NPCs to give people things to do when there are hundreds of orgs out there looking to give people work.  Our orgs have loads of casual players earning millions from the VERY SPECIFIC roles quoted in that piece - Hauling, mining, building basis.  They work on a job basis (JUST LIKE NPCS MISSIONS).  I really do not understand what the difference is, why are you ok going to an NPC and getting a mission to haul something for xxx quanta but you wont do it for another player.

Also, just an idea, if you have to make LOADS of product (from you large industrial machine) then make it, use what you need AND SELL THE REST to other players on the market...........

I think there is a big difference between playing solo (completely self sufficient) and playing solo but still being involved in civilisation.  It seems to me that the people who are having issues are those that was to be complete independent from civilisation, which is NOT what the game was advertised as.  WHY does the game need NPCs to give people things to do when there are hundreds of orgs out there looking to give people work.  Our orgs have loads of casual players earning millions from the VERY SPECIFIC roles quoted in that piece - Hauling, mining, building basis.  They work on a job basis (JUST LIKE NPCS MISSIONS).  I really do not understand what the difference is, why are you ok going to an NPC and getting a mission to haul something for xxx quanta but you wont do it for another player.

Also, just an idea, if you have to make LOADS of product (from you large industrial machine) then make it, use what you need AND SELL THE REST to other players on the market...........

Sadly the simple part of it seems buggy (adding perms via right click etc) but if you work in the RDMS menu and use those setting they are really solid, got some brilliant perms setting sorted for our freelance players (who might only have access to a certain container etc)

I would disagree, this is actually one of the most comprehensive RDMS systems ever in a video game.  The ability to add granular rights to even specific object within a ship is incredible BUT the UI is not the best and some of the functionality is bugged.  If you work with the core tools (the RDMS settings NOT the premade options) it is extremely powerful.  Once i got my head around it and set up a good set of core perms it was quite easy to use.

To the OP - my suggestion is get of sanc moon and see the universe, go claim something on Alioth where you can mine anything unclaimed.  The terri unit costs 200k, hit me up in game and I will sponsor you a terri.

When i get to 6000m alt and my ship is still gaining altitude. At that moment i think to my self: "I made it, uff" 

Sadly it is logging in first thing and checking my sold orders.......... know what you mean about the machines firing back into life though

Also I am currently flying in space 80% of the time, actually quite enjoying it, tend to save my warp fuel and just cruise about some days.

...that I've found so far is hearing a machine cascade you made whirr into life when you feed it more raw material. Checking on each queue in the chain to see that progress bar start up, and seeing the blinken lights come to "working" is pretty cool.
 
What's your "I made/did that" feelgood?

Been saying this for ages, 100% they should make a big strip down the middle of the parking, ANYTHING left in there for 24 hours gets unlocked so anyone can take it - simples, the outside edges can be longer stay parking / org stands

Basically short stay and long stay parking