Woodsman

I know I'm setting myself up for some vitriol here, but I just have to say that I hate the idea of SG Probes being the "preferred" method of interstellar exploration and travel.
 
Hear me out, because I love the idea of Stargate Probes in general, it's just that one little word that gets under my skin.
 
Preferred.
 
Seems benign, I know, but it's actually a pretty significant word that we will come back to shortly.
 
To start with, let's look at what SG Probes are, because they're pretty dang cool.
 
A Stargate Probe is a freaking automated factory attached to a powerful FTL drive that travels through deep space before entering a distant star system and building a giant stargate that will (presumably?) connect back to the stargate that had previously been built in the home system. Some sort of mechanic wherein we build a Stargate somewhere, and then build a probe and launch it, and then wait for the first Stargate to turn on.
 
Which is really cool, no matter how you slice it. Especially when you add in the fact that they're probably going to make us LUA script the whole thing, all on our own. This will be an epic player achievement, make no mistake.
 
...now let's get back to that word, preferred. Especially in the context of a subscription-based sandbox MMO.
 
 
I have to say that I am disappointed to hear that the developers of a subscription-based sandbox have a "preferred" method of travel for players that includes months-long waiting periods. And, yes, the devs have stated that these probe might take months to reach their destination.
 
I know that it's a bit gauche to bring up something like this, but I've always had a fascination for elephants that are just sitting in the middle of the room, doing nothing in particular.
 
Let's say this game costs $11.99USD per month, for argument's sake. Let's say, also for argument's sake, that you took on the challenge of a crewed interstellar ship. You've done the calculations on fuel and energy, and spent some time building the appropriate ship. You know the journey will take months (2 months=$23.98USD, 4 months=$47.96USD, 8 months=$95.92USD!), but the devs said it was possible, so you had to try. You point your ship at the star you want, and......what?
 
Seriously though, what comes next? Do we just log off, pay our subscription for a few months, and hope we don't get the message that our characters have died and re-spawned back at the Arkship?
 
Why does interstellar travel have to take months? Is it punishment for not playing the way the devs want?
 
Every moment that I'm paying for a subscription to something, I'm asking myself why I'm paying for a subscription to something. And when it comes to subscription-based video games, that answer had better be "It's really fun and entertaining."
 
There is nothing fun and/or entertaining about traveling through deep space for months. 
 
Also, what happens when one of these gates is destroyed? Everyone gets cut off from that star system for the next year of subscription time while new probes are constructed and sent? Talk about a divided player base.
 
If this game was a one-time purchase, I wouldn't feel this way about such a mechanic.

I know I'm setting myself up for some vitriol here, but I just have to say that I hate the idea of SG Probes being the "preferred" method of interstellar exploration and travel.
 
Hear me out, because I love the idea of Stargate Probes in general, it's just that one little word that gets under my skin.
 
Preferred.
 
Seems benign, I know, but it's actually a pretty significant word that we will come back to shortly.
 
To start with, let's look at what SG Probes are, because they're pretty dang cool.
 
A Stargate Probe is a freaking automated factory attached to a powerful FTL drive that travels through deep space before entering a distant star system and building a giant stargate that will (presumably?) connect back to the stargate that had previously been built in the home system. Some sort of mechanic wherein we build a Stargate somewhere, and then build a probe and launch it, and then wait for the first Stargate to turn on.
 
Which is really cool, no matter how you slice it. Especially when you add in the fact that they're probably going to make us LUA script the whole thing, all on our own. This will be an epic player achievement, make no mistake.
 
...now let's get back to that word, preferred. Especially in the context of a subscription-based sandbox MMO.
 
 
I have to say that I am disappointed to hear that the developers of a subscription-based sandbox have a "preferred" method of travel for players that includes months-long waiting periods. And, yes, the devs have stated that these probe might take months to reach their destination.
 
I know that it's a bit gauche to bring up something like this, but I've always had a fascination for elephants that are just sitting in the middle of the room, doing nothing in particular.
 
Let's say this game costs $11.99USD per month, for argument's sake. Let's say, also for argument's sake, that you took on the challenge of a crewed interstellar ship. You've done the calculations on fuel and energy, and spent some time building the appropriate ship. You know the journey will take months (2 months=$23.98USD, 4 months=$47.96USD, 8 months=$95.92USD!), but the devs said it was possible, so you had to try. You point your ship at the star you want, and......what?
 
Seriously though, what comes next? Do we just log off, pay our subscription for a few months, and hope we don't get the message that our characters have died and re-spawned back at the Arkship?
 
Why does interstellar travel have to take months? Is it punishment for not playing the way the devs want?
 
Every moment that I'm paying for a subscription to something, I'm asking myself why I'm paying for a subscription to something. And when it comes to subscription-based video games, that answer had better be "It's really fun and entertaining."
 
There is nothing fun and/or entertaining about traveling through deep space for months. 
 
Also, what happens when one of these gates is destroyed? Everyone gets cut off from that star system for the next year of subscription time while new probes are constructed and sent? Talk about a divided player base.
 
If this game was a one-time purchase, I wouldn't feel this way about such a mechanic.

^ this
 
Perhaps, but trying to eliminate freeform travel by justifying it with real scientific claims isn't the way to do it. And I don't see very good scientific claims either. No reason an Alcubierre drive has to leave from a certain place, no reason that expanded space behind you would decimate a planet. So much of it is theoretical anyway.
 
Elminating free-form travel would also impinge on the free nature of a sandbox game. Imagine if you couldn't leave a village's gravel path in MC. It's far too limiting.
 
 
^ this and sensor nets maybe patrols too. Borders shouldn't be absolutely impossible to cross, and only as strong as the force that the organization which established them can bring to bear.

I think if I was heading up an exploration company, I'd have a division that scours interstellar space for unmanned probes, shooting them down whenever I find them.  Only true explorers, read: manned expeditions allowed past the kuiper belt.

Just a few things i want to say :
- A probe is a basic stargate itself, otherwise you couldnt jump on it when it arrives. You'd need to build defenses and various other optional or additional stuff ofc.
- A probe isn't (or at least i hope so) a single element. But a drone we build, script, and equip with a specific element, the stargate element.
- A probe has to carry a stargate, it's should be quite heavy. Theoretically, a ship built to go fast, would never be slower than a probe.
- A probe speed depends on the amount of thruster you put on it, and this ofc will require more fuel and resources in general.
 
Ofc if a probe is just a single mesh, that we dont have to build, all I said isnt true. I hope not.

im with the OP on the "wait months to arrive" thing.
 
yes, getting to other star systems shouldnt be an easy thing, but it shouldnt simply be limited by the amount of time someone is willing to wait while watching a distance meter to tick down.
 
building a stargate, calibrating it that it works at all, determining the billion and one parameters for it to work, determining the billion and one other parameters it needs to connect to the system in question should be the things you have to do to get to a system where you have no arrival gate, not waiting for a timer to tick down...
 
have the player work during that months it takes to "arrive" at another star system.
 
especially in the beginning times where nobody has experience in building stargates, how to efficiently calibrate and run them, how to get the data needed to get a ship to where you want it to be.
 
waiting for a timer to tick down is boring and lazy game design.
implement the same time delay with actual gameplay, with the player able to influence it.

They never said anything about making it easier for later players to reach new stars (outside of stargates), what they said was:
 

"Flying from a planet to another should be a real achievement in our game vision. So it would not be available on the first day of the official release. If a player is here from day 1, it might be weeks, maybe a few months before the travel from planet to planet becomes possible. This is still a topic heavily discussed in the team. However, later on in the game, when the global tech level of civilizations built by the players will have reached a certain point, it will be possible for a new comer to simply buy or be given a ship to fly with as soon as he arrives in game (he will still need to learn a few skills to be able to fly it however, but the basic levels should be reachable between a few minutes and a few hours, according to the flying construct complexity). In short, the game experience for a player present from day 1 might be very different from the game experience of a player coming several months after the game has launched, also different from the game experience of a player entering the game one year after official launch (where many solar systems will be, without a doubt, already discovered and colonized)."
 
 
And on the topic of Stargates and travelling to distant stars they've stated it will take months for probes to reach their destinations before players can travel to them and construct the other end of their stargate, there was nothing stated about making it easier for new players to just immediately travel to distant stars without stargates.
 
 
 
Also, those "unfun" RP mechanics are the reason many of us are here, and have been so active on the forums, and why we've gone out of our way to make player organizations based on the little we know about the game.
 
How could you possibly say they'd be "really bad for the game if implemented" without knowing anything about the game as it is? You're applying that logic in the hopes that the game will be like Eve Online, which aside from some basic mechanics and the world being a sandbox, DU is going to be anything but Eve Online. 
 
Those of us who have been most vocal in our support of DU are the ones hoping for a feature rich game that is both difficult and rewarding, not a theme park playground where everything is given to us without much effort or patience. I can't see how having to work towards something and needing patience is "unfun", especially in a game where they expect it to take us weeks or months to even reach space in the first place. 
 
If I wanted a game where I could just jump into a ship and fly anywhere I wanted immediately without any effort or survival mechanics, I'd just play No Man's Sky. 
 
I want a game where people have to work together to create amazing structures in space, where trade and the economy are a core part of the game dictated by players, where establishing a new planetary colony is something to be proud of and not something anyone can do overnight, where going to war involves more than just throwing manpower and ships into battle, where every choice a player makes has an impact on the world around them.
 
I want a game that has a living breathing world, and you can't really do that without survival mechanics of some type, otherwise we'll just end up with Everquest Landmark in space.

I think stargates should be in the game. But I also think normal FTL travel should be balanced so that if you are traveling in a small craft going between systems using normal ftl is the method of choice. As to if people who enter the game at a later stage should have an easier time reaching the stars, that's how the devs have explicitly told us it's going to be.
 
I find it interesting that whenever I hear the devs talking about the game I really like what I hear, I imagine an upgraded version of eve that fixes many of the problems that game had while adding solid crafting mechanics. But then people keep making threads about tacking on all manner of unfun survival and rp mechanics, that imo would be really bad for the game if they were implemented.

I don't like the idea of stargates period. I hate teleportation in games. I'd rather just have FTL travel and leave it at that. Not everything should just be instantly accessible because stargates.
 
Once a stargate is up just go to your linked one and poof, space magic. For me it's always been a bridge too far in regards to verisimilitude.

If travelling to different systems is too easy, then people will spread out too far and thin too quickly. 
 
By having it take months for probes to reach other systems, it reduces the speed at which players spread out and encourages people to use resources they have locally rather than immediately setting out on day 1 looking for their own planet to control. 
 
If it's going to take weeks to months for the first players in the game to create spacecraft capable of travelling to other planets, why should in turn be easy for new players to hop in and immediately travel to the furthest reaches of space if the first players had to put all of that work and effort into space travel in the first place? 
 
Going to an unexplored planet for the first time should be something players have to work towards, not something that is trivialized into a non-event simply because some players don't want to have to work (or have patience) for their accomplishments. 
 
 
 
The closest analogy I can think of to this is the time it takes to build a Titan in Eve Online. It takes months to complete one, assuming you have all of the resources available to even begin construction of one. You need an assortment of high level skills, you need somewhere secure in space to do the construction, there's all sorts of logistics involved in keeping those shipyards secure too. 

The problem arises when you have someone owning the stargate and only allowing that orgs ships through, which could well mean that there will be situation where an enemy is attacking you and you have no way of striking back. The way I see it if it really shouldn't take more than 1 hour to travel between systems that are within say 20-30 ly apart, if you have proper ftl drives, and even then that would be monstrously boring. Any game mechanic that just makes you press a button and then you are effectively locked out of interacting with the game for any amount of time longer than say a few minutes is a bad mechanic. I don't want a game that says there is nothing more you can do ingame right now, go do something else!
 
IMO the limiting factor in space travel should be fuel and the size of the craft. If a space A is twice the size (size could be in mass or volume or some mix thereof, doesn't really matter) of spaceship B and spaceship A requires say 4-8 times more fuel to achieve the same FTL speed that could mean that if you are just running around in a small single man ship you might easily be able to travel vast distances in a quick manner, but that for large cargo transports or warships stargates might be much more efficient and practical.

Since the universe is going to be infinitely large a probe COULD well take several months to travel to a distant location, but I highly doubt going to the next system is going to take more than hours, this is a game after all and people have limited time to play. If the travel time is to long that would simply defeat the whole purpose of the game being single shard since it would effectively limit peoples ability to interact with each other in a timely manner.

This seems to be more of a complaint about the game being subscription based than anything. 
 
 
Probes aren't manned by players, they are automated devices that travel for months at a time through deep space before stopping at your Stargate destination.
 
The reason the question was worded that way was because I asked about whether or not, instead of sending unmanned probes, if players could build ships and make the journey manually through space instead of waiting for their probes to get there. Some of us would be happy to live on a ship for several months surviving with very little resources to get there manually, for everyone else there is the option of launching an automated probe. 
 
Taking the journey manually in a ship is a core part of Meruism, the in-game religion I created for Dual Universe. At least it is a requirement for being a "priest" in the religion, but there's no value to doing that for people who follow the religion in game except for RP and perhaps leadership roles. Because undertaking that journey requires dedication and patience, as well as skill because of the aforementioned fuel and resource requirements.
 
For the most part people will send probes and then go back to working on their own planets until they get the notification that their probes have reached their destination. 
 
Why are you assuming there will be absolutely nothing to do for months at a time while you're waiting for a probe to reach its destination? 

@MasteredRed


I'm a bit twitchy whenever I see the word "multiboxing". Apologies are in order @Cosmicdragon.

OK. I never have responded to a forum post like this, but this was a QUESTION! Simply put, This is Gameplay Mechanics assembly. He is simply assembling the gameplay mechanics and trying to figure out if there will be a realm for solo players in this community. There is no need for negative controversy to be stirred up and no need for a, quote on quote, remark about him being anti-social and accusing him of multiboxing(he said it but didn't say he did it) to be said. If you feel the need stir up controversy, just go back to your irl social circle.
 
As for you my friend, I never Welcomed you to the forums and although it is a bit late, welcome. As for solo players, it is stated that solo will be possible, but the benefits of joining a group of people will far outweigh solo. In terms, organizations will always have a dominance over solo by a long, long shot. Solo is not a good option, however such roles as freelancer, wanderer and even professional spy, bounty hunter and as such will be possible. So there are roles that are similar to solo but actually have some benefits. 
 
For NPC corperations as well, I highly doubt we will see such things but the devs still have a lot to reveal to us. Hope that answers your question. 

we need a moderator here... this is sooo far off topic its nuts

I think the amount of effort required will be determined by the market. A DU PLEX will be worth whatever players are willing to pay for them.

Guys this is a game we dont need to get scientific about it

...So I did a bad and started a thread about this very topic without being aware of this thread.
 
Instead of linking to my thread (and thus getting "points" or something), I'll just sperg what I posted here. Feel free to lambaste me at your leisure...
 
 
Thanks, sorry, you're welcome, oh wow,,,flowers!?! ...jeepers. 

From what I've gathered, it seems most likely that most buying and selling will take place via some sort of player-built transaction terminal.  I would propose that any terminal allowing transactions involving physical resources should be tied to a physical inventory.  In other words, if you're going to sell a certain amount of a particular resource, it shouldn't be magically conveyed through the terminal from one virtual inventory to another via the terminal.  It has to actually be there, in a storage container, and provisions must be made for transferring it to another storage container.  It's a simple mechanic with far-reaching implications.
 
Practically, this might look like a container connected to some sort of connector (like a docking ring, perhaps).  The terminal would be linked with these components, and a player would need to link their container (probably most often a ship) with the connector in order to transfer resources as the result of a buy or sell order from the terminal.  This would ensure that players looking to trade physical resources would have to actually be present at the location to either deposit those resources or retrieve them.  This means that trade would be grounded in the game world and not some sort of economy overlay, with a fundamental need for real shipping routes and centralized trade hubs.  This would in turn mean that well-resourced stations and colonies with solid infrastructure would have an essential place in the game world, as they do in the real world.
 
This simple requirement would drive many other pursuits that would grow up around supporting (or exploiting) living, breathing trade networks where physical resources are being ferried between locations and stored on site.  Real-world civilization has largely been shaped by the need for access to physical trade routes and infrastructure, and I think this would be a simple but necessary mechanic for driving a dynamic in-game society and diversifying the number of viable roles for players.  This may be what the developers have planned, but I just wanted to throw this out there and see what sticks!

Yes, I think we can all agree Babylon 5 was awesome, that's sort of besides the point.

I really dislike this idea of making large ships incredibly fast. It is the antithesis of balanced gameplay.

From Nyzaltar, in the thread on Territory Control:
 
 
 
I hope they make it a super rare item that players will need to discover through exploration. The explorers that find them would be faced with a choice; head back to Jita Alioth and sell it on the market, or find themselves a little place in 'verse and plant some roots.

this ^