Physical Inventories and Shipping

[this3ndup]

From what I've gathered, it seems most likely that most buying and selling will take place via some sort of player-built transaction terminal.  I would propose that any terminal allowing transactions involving physical resources should be tied to a physical inventory.  In other words, if you're going to sell a certain amount of a particular resource, it shouldn't be magically conveyed through the terminal from one virtual inventory to another via the terminal.  It has to actually be there, in a storage container, and provisions must be made for transferring it to another storage container.  It's a simple mechanic with far-reaching implications.

 

Practically, this might look like a container connected to some sort of connector (like a docking ring, perhaps).  The terminal would be linked with these components, and a player would need to link their container (probably most often a ship) with the connector in order to transfer resources as the result of a buy or sell order from the terminal.  This would ensure that players looking to trade physical resources would have to actually be present at the location to either deposit those resources or retrieve them.  This means that trade would be grounded in the game world and not some sort of economy overlay, with a fundamental need for real shipping routes and centralized trade hubs.  This would in turn mean that well-resourced stations and colonies with solid infrastructure would have an essential place in the game world, as they do in the real world.

 

This simple requirement would drive many other pursuits that would grow up around supporting (or exploiting) living, breathing trade networks where physical resources are being ferried between locations and stored on site.  Real-world civilization has largely been shaped by the need for access to physical trade routes and infrastructure, and I think this would be a simple but necessary mechanic for driving a dynamic in-game society and diversifying the number of viable roles for players.  This may be what the developers have planned, but I just wanted to throw this out there and see what sticks!

[Cornflakes]

"When you’ll buy a good on a market 1.000km away from where you stand, it will show up in a local inventory physically attached to that particular market container. So, you have to factor in the cost (in time) to get there and collect your good."

 

https://devblog.dualthegame.com/2014/12/04/from-barter-to-market-economy/

[yamamushi]

"When you’ll buy a good on a market 1.000km away from where you stand, it will show up in a local inventory physically attached to that particular market container. So, you have to factor in the cost (in time) to get there and collect your good."

 

https://devblog.dualthegame.com/2014/12/04/from-barter-to-market-economy/

 

Nice catch

[MasteredRed]

"When you’ll buy a good on a market 1.000km away from where you stand, it will show up in a local inventory physically attached to that particular market container. So, you have to factor in the cost (in time) to get there and collect your good."

 

https://devblog.dualthegame.com/2014/12/04/from-barter-to-market-economy/

I didn't even remember that post! Well, looks like I'm going to have to re-read the dev blogs again.

[Kongou]

Buying these goods, setting up remote contracts to get someone else to move things for you.

 

Sounds like it will be good fun or lots of agonizing over lost and stolen goods.

 

Makes me wonder how cargo insurance might work.

[Code24]

Cargo hauling might end up being an emergent profession because some people will be willing to pay extra for express shipping. Might be a good way for new players to make some easy money.

 

Then eventually someone might make a good autopilot script for trading ships and put a bunch of people out of work just like what will be happening with truck drivers IRL.

[this3ndup]

"When you’ll buy a good on a market 1.000km away from where you stand, it will show up in a local inventory physically attached to that particular market container. So, you have to factor in the cost (in time) to get there and collect your good."

 

https://devblog.dualthegame.com/2014/12/04/from-barter-to-market-economy/

 

Thanks for the link!  I had to imagine this had been addressed somewhere...

[Anaximander]

Well, I'm up for physical space inventory (Diablo inventory system for the layman), but having transactions terminals with physical inventories could lead to some pretty hilarious heists. I mean, I used to live in an apartment building with an ATM and bank on the ground floor and one day I woke up to see the ATM missing. Apparently some guy jacked up cables on his tractor and pulled the darn hing off. Hilarious? Yes. Could have been avoided? Absolutely. 


So let's not make automated selling units, either terminals or NPCs, have an inventory. It could end up badly.

[Kongou]

But it could be very useful to have control units behaving like vending machines.

 

even without them, as stated the stuff you buy will be waiting in a container at the market node you buy it at.

 

Someone could probably still steal that if they can outdo the defenses.

[Anaximander]

@Neopolitan


Given that ANY MMO has griefers, you think having also robbers a good idea as well? We will already have trading ships to carry goods from one planet to another with all the hazards that come along with it, having vending machines being able to be cracked open is an icing on a cake nobody needs.

[Cornflakes]

well, its likely to go hand in hand.

 

as the ship isnt fundamentally different from the vending machine's container.

 

its a cargo pod in a player built object.

[Fitorion]

These containers will probably function like mail boxes do in most games.

 

Meaning anyone can use them.  Many people can use them at the same time.  Those using them only see the Mail... or in this case the items they bought that's addressed to them and not anyone else's.

 

So stealing one... Is a minor inconvenience as you just plop down another and no one lost any goods.

 

 

But that doesn't mean the goods wouldn't be vulnerable during shipping.  They absolutely should take up space in your ship... cargo truck thing... or whatever until you can get them to your own secure storage.

[Anaximander]

Unless it's an "auction" type of vending machine, I don't see why it should store what you bought. And please, no mail boxes. It will make starships and people who wanna play traders obsolete.

[Fitorion]

Unless it's an "auction" type of vending machine, I don't see why it should store what you bought. And please, no mail boxes. It will make starships and people who wanna play traders obsolete.

Seems some things aren't clear.

 

I didn't say they would be mail boxes... just have some similar functions...  And I'm referring just to the Containers that would be next to the Shopping/auction terminal things the devs have told us will be in game and that we'll physically have to travel to in order to pick up our goods.

 

If they function as I've described they would be useless to anyone who stole one as they wouldn't function once no longer connected to the terminal.  

[Fitorion]

Actually come to think of it...  What the devs have said indicates the ability to buy things remotely...

 

So the terminal is itself likely the pick up point... which would have the functions as I've described.

[Anaximander]

So much cognitive dissonance.


On one hand remotely purchasing items would negate merchant ships.
But on the other hand... travelling.
But then again, in any MMO, there's a trading hub.
But then again hubs tether you.



Unless you build a self-sustained ship, that can process anything and produce anything, from fuel to repair parts. Then you are solid to go lone wolf.

[Fitorion]

So much cognitive dissonance.

 

 

On one hand remotely purchasing items would negate merchant ships.

But on the other hand... travelling.

But then again, in any MMO, there's a trading hub.

But then again hubs tether you.

 

 

 

Unless you build a self-sustained ship, that can process anything and produce anything, from fuel to repair parts. Then you are solid to go lone wolf.

How?

Traveling needs merchant ships

Since we make our own terminals and put them anywhere we want... it's organic and dynamic

So? Concentrating population is neccesary for a game such as this.

 

 

This game is not designed to accommodate the lone wolf. While some lone wolf like players could make it work... Lone wolf style play is not the desired play style.  The whole game is dependent on player group interactions.

[Anaximander]

Ah, I see. So you travel to a planet, set up the terminal there and leave your goods INSIDE the terminal to be sold. Now I get it.Well, in THAT meaning of the word "remote" selling of goods, I can stand behind. But no WoW magic mailboxes. You auctioned for something and won? You get a notification mail of your successful bid, but not the item. Them space gas stations are going to be shitting gold I tell you.

[Wardion2000]

So much cognitive dissonance.

 

 

On one hand remotely purchasing items would negate merchant ships.

But on the other hand... travelling.

But then again, in any MMO, there's a trading hub.

But then again hubs tether you.

 

 

 

Unless you build a self-sustained ship, that can process anything and produce anything, from fuel to repair parts. Then you are solid to go lone wolf.

Remember that they plan to include a system of territorial control as well.  Territorial control isn't supposed to be something easy to pull off, so I can see ALL of the above being true by that fact alone. To bring cargo to areas with no territorial control it would require merchant ships and traders.  (All newly explored space and planets for example.)  Areas of space or land under territorial control could be thought to have the infrastructure needed for remote purchasing.  Especially if it's only possible in areas that are interconnected in ownership.  (like the territory tiles mentioned in the devblog.) They would have plenty of people already thus necessitating some sort of central trade.  Remote trade transactions might also be limited to trade on the planetary surface or one system tile to another.

 

For areas of unclaimed territory tiles, cue the player made terminals.  I can see terminals stretching far beyond a simple vending machine.  If I were to build an underground vault for instance heavily guarded, trapped and armored as well as being automated.  I could create a sort of "Black Vault" for those who want to trade or store items in secret.  Depending on LUA scripting capabilities each vault room could be given an access code known only to whoever is renting it.  These codes can then be used as a secure method of transfer between two parties.  (I can also see people getting their grubby little hands on the blueprints and planning a "Bank Job".)

[Anaximander]

Well, that opens up the lucrative profession of smuggling stuff. Territorial control could mean fees on your products or taxes. Yarrr harr harr I say to thee.

[Wardion2000]

Yes, this is one of those nice situations where it doesn't need to be one or the other.  We have plenty to work with here.

[Fitorion]

Ah, I see. So you travel to a planet, set up the terminal there and leave your goods INSIDE the terminal to be sold. Now I get it.Well, in THAT meaning of the word "remote" selling of goods, I can stand behind. But no WoW magic mailboxes. You auctioned for something and won? You get a notification mail of your successful bid, but not the item. Them space gas stations are going to be shitting gold I tell you.

Remote purchase... not remote selling exactly...

 

Like a website... You remotely purchase something.  But you have to either travel there yourself or pay someone else to travel for you... to actually take possession of the item.

 

You know like real life...

 

The terminal you make is a physical object where people can pick up your goods.  From what the devs have said... placing it I guess also makes the shop show up on what ever in universe internet like analog.  So people can purchase your items from anywhere but need to travel to the physical terminal to get them.

 

My point about mail boxes is that many people can use them at the same time but only have access to the items they own and can't see anyone else's stuff... so there isn't any point in stealing it.

 

I'm against "bank heist" allowing mechanics. Unless someone specifically creates a vault that doesn't use the secure storage offered by the game... Because they want to let people try to steal their stuff... then I guess it's ok...

 

And yeah territory control means taxes and fees and what not and should organically encourage people to place their shop terminals in places with low rates.

[Cornflakes]

Are you suggesting that everyone can set up secure storage compartments, which cant be cracked open or hacked, in arbitary locations?

 

Seems like you dont want shipping lines to be raidable at all, because when i can build secure containers everywhere, what keeps me from using them for shipping my goods and thus keeping them perfectly safe even in the most dangerous environments.

 

Perfect security should have very harsh restrictions as to where its possible and what you can do with it.

 

 

For example a normal, bog standard container would be a save storage in an arkified area.

enabling save storage of goods without being instantly a pita for pvp balance and design (at least no more than arkified areas are already)

[Anaximander]

@Fitorion

Indeed. Merchant ship raids will be a norm (like in EVE) so having bank heists will be like giving the cage-keys to the sharks.

If ships are not raidable, then what's the point of an MMO sci-fi, trading and building game? If ships are not destroyable and mtrading has no risks, what then? Everyone goes PvP and the game dies in 2 months time upon release? There's a reason people still play EVE. It's ebbing and flowing as far as emergent gameplay goes.


My idea still stands though. Go to a planet, park your ship in a hangar, put your goods up on the local trading terminal (linking to your storage space) and then go to work/do choirs around the house and come back to see how much money you've made. A similar thing happened in Lineage 2. You went to a city, then acted like a merchant NPC, a command feature in the game, putting prices on your goods-for-sale and going pretty much AFK. It's an awesome system for traders to use.


 

[Kongou]

Either way we have no guarantee that anything is completely safe. Even in arkified areas people may discover ways to suicide bomb or steal.

 

I'm not sure goods will register on the market of they aren't in the possession of the market unit. Maybe you can park and sell. But also why not have multiple ships in that case. Leave one plugged into the mu and you gathering more on the other.