hdparm

The obvious reaction is moving all assets to Sanctuary and build temporary mining outposts on other planets and moons only. Than NQ will be once more surprised that we don't play the game as intended and come up with the next crazy idea.

Easy solution to this whole vaccine patch...... first claimed tile is free! after that the tax can kick in incrementally.... 100k 2nd tile, 200k 3rd, 400k 4th, 800k 5th and so on...

If the rationale for taxes is to clear out inactive tiles wouldn't it make more sense to actually add FUN content so people come back and become active again.
 
It's obvious that NQ doenst actually play this game still. They think, rea life has death and taxes so they both have to be in game too? What?
 
So many changes starting with 0.23 only makes the game tedious. Paying taxes is suppose to be fun? Mining unit mini game is suppose to be fun?
 
Taxes may "solve" a problem but without the ability to physically mine the rewards of these mining units will be used to mostly pay taxes. 
 
Taxes in game destroy capital, remove content and slow progression. That money serves no real purpose it's simply cancelled. 

But this is where I don't understand NQ's logic.
A flat time based tax will only hurt the small orgs and specialized solo players, and at the same time allow big orgs to cheaply acquire large amounts of tiles since they have the players needed to more easily cover the management overhead. So the change from the increasing tile prices to a flat tax, does the exact opposite of what you would think NQ wanted to achieve?
 
And once this plays out, it would not surprise me if we end up with having both an increasing one time cost and tax at the same time.

How much do you get paid to play this game? I sure as heck don't want it to be a job. Since the end goal is to have paying subs. I don't see a high tax beneficial to the games longevity.
 
Also you literally did your calculations based on your current knowledge of mining and its impacts within this economy.

Mining becoming a passive phase of the game essentially puts a speed limit on how much you can produce. HOWEVER since its steady all the time the market will slowly go back to PRE HYPER INFLATION prices like 35/l for t1
 
Economics is fun.

need a 3rd option...taxes are fine but 1st tile on a planet should be excluded and cost should scale with how many tiles you own.

The question is, how many of those inactive tiles are players just waiting for a game that is fun to play?
To me at least, it seems for sure that a much higher percentage of them will never return and cancel the subscription once they start losing tiles for not being good citizens and playing the game at the frequency and style dictated by NQ.

Every successful sub-based MMO has only one interest when it comes to inactive players: get them to resubscribe. 
 
Why do you think Netflix makes it so easy for you to pause or cancel? They know that at some point you'll come crawling back and don't want to piss you off in the meantime. 
 
I get that they need a way to reclaim tiles to save money....but they are severely limiting the appeal of resubscribing. Even if their churn rate were low, that would be a problem long-term. 
 
Without AvA or territory war, opening these dead tiles to first-come salvage is a weird idea -- make a way for the owner to reclaim (most) of the mats and delete it, don't just throw it into the wind and shrug at the concept of resubs. 
 
Majorly counterproductive for NQ's bottom line. 

I was thinking about the territory taxes:
 
Could the TU's be set on a timer to be active, just like when you sell things.
-7 days 150k
-30 days 500k
-90 days 1000k (the infamous 1 mill)
(maybe tweak it to 1mill for 45 days and 1.5 mill for 90 days)
 
-Have a seperate tab for that of course to manage the TU's
-And we can put them on auto-extend with a simple on/off switch.
-Have the switch in the map menu also for easy management.
-No adding of time, so if you got a territory for 150K, make some quanta, and you want to extend it to 30 days. It starts with the 30 days and doesnt add up to the days you have left on your timer
 
-After the timer reaches zero, your TU will become abandoned (blue coloured??), So its even easier for the next player to grab your tile. I mean, if there is a TU unit there, there must be treasure. So hunting and using hovers to scout planets now becomes a game, since we cant see TU's from to high up. (Or hide your TU)
-Have the scanner rework to detect elements. So even if you have an underground base and you've lost the territory. It is still hidden and must be found first before be able to be reclaimed. This way you can log in after 8 months or so and still have your secret base somewhere and reclaim it yourself. (Have abandoned structures not show up on radar, only on scanner)
 
Since we cant no more drop in and speedmine, but have to set up stuff that will prolly go at a slow rate. This will solve many things I think.
Also, this way even players that quit can hold on to their cities with ease for a longer period of time.
But when it comes to hogging 100s of tiles cuz you have found a mega there, it will cost you.
 
I have 3 tiles outside of my sanct tile (I live on a space base). They are not because of megas, but because of much random ore on them. I barely even visit the tiles for mining because I mine where ever I am closest to. So its unneccisary hogging of tiles on my part. So its true that taxes will help a little, but I do not think it should be too pricey!
 
So what you guys n girls think of this?

I'm afraid that's too reasonable for DU.

I so hope NQ is reading this!
Best idea yet and it harks back to finding ore in SWG, the good old mining days may be coming back in a new game called DU.

Latest Vlog about Demeter - Time: 1:29
https://youtu.be/FV54JaiAbmg?t=5372
 
Question: NQ Shesch: It may be players not playing at the launch of Demeter and they come back after couple of months. They see their construct burred into the ground. Can they ask for help to dig out the construct.
 
NQ Deckard , Answer: absolutely yes.
 
My Question: How is this possible if their taxes are not paid. It is the case If they are not playing at the launch of Demeter and coming back after couple of months after launch. Ownership of the tile is gone and there is new owner. And possibly whole base is looted.

There is also the small issue that DS6 has shown us that DU would not actually be able to handle a city with active players and constructs.

This is worse that r0.23 and schematics.
 
Schemas are pain only once.
 
This Territory Taxation stress newer ends.
 
 

You need a subscription at any time, if you don't have one, you lose your territory/constructs after 4 weeks. Done. No taxes necessary.

This whole tax thing maybe be the end for me. I pay a subscription to play. Now they want me to work in game to keep what I have. I do that in IRL. I play to have fun. Not to do more work.

I have so much time in this game and really enjoy it and the only issue is territory tax cost. i have 21 tiles and not all in 1 place. a few on different planets. I enjoy the build of the game, but 1 million a week. No way i can keep up with this. Our organization is only 3 of us and we will probably stop playing this game if this sticks. 21 million a week? Thats Crazy. I really hope this changes alot because i really want to continue playing DU.

I'm playing solo casually and spend most of time in scripting. I use quanta only for schematics.
 
Looks like i need half dozen hexes per planet and five planets should cover all ores. So, 25-30 hexes, which  is 25-30 millions per week. That will kill my game in few weeks.
 
I would expect a tax of 10000 per hex to be sustainable when collecting daily income during weekends with few alts.

So, here are some questions. This time I even spent time on the PTS and watched the full video first

-Demeter fees will pull a lot of money "out of the system" and slow the inflation or even reverse it (deflation). The 1M per week fee is set now, at a time when it is equivalent to only 10kl or hematite, or one t2 engine L. Will you adjust the fee should the buying power of the quanta change significantly? The whole "player driven economy" is, by far, not really player driven anymore, and this patch is yet another step in that direction, the fixed rates for schematics, missions, other bot buy and sell orders, and now territory fees see to that.

-I generally like airbrakes now finally getting an obstruction zone, however the current direction indicated by the yellow arrows is not only unintuitive but would also just lead to players stacking them on the inside of the craft pointing outwards to the sides. On the current PTS it appears the obstruction is checked above the brakes (if placed on horizontal surface). What are the plans for the direction of the obstruction directions for the airbrakes?
 
-This is a nice reminder that plenty of items have obstruction zones which dictate a certain usage, which is often not visually pleasing, intuitive or, for better lack of word, "feels right". Any plans for an overall overhaul of obstruction mechanics and directions?
 
-To use mining units to their full potention, by at least never wasting charges because the charge pool is already full, you have to log in almost daily (every 30h with no talents, every 35h with full charge gain and pool talents). It feels rather tight. Do you think DU is a game for casuals, RP players, weekend warriors and others who are not playing in a regular profit oriented way? (So not like me   ).
 
-My first ever ship sale was to a player who just travels the planets and maintains a little base on almost every planet and moon. Quite serene and dreamy actually. He will now have to set up mining units and get into business, or collect rocks, or quit. He is not allowed to continue the way he is used to play. The fee is too high for that. Patch .23 stopped groups of people from having autonomous outposts and building civilisation away from alioth. Demeter now stops another group of players from playing their way. What is the intended and therefore likely future-proof way to play DU? 
 
-With planet based mining gone, yet another thing to actually do in the game is removed. For players who have time on saturdays there is still asteroid mining, for the rest there are AI missions, which consist of taking off and waiting for 5h to arrive, assuming you do one that actually pays something. Player made long distance haul missions can not compete with AI missions. Any plans on revisiting Apelia missions, their payout, or the fact that the long distance ones are overly profitable with multiple accounts or "car sharing" via VR?
 
-Related to above: Any plans to add anything to the game that is fun to do and at the same time brings an amount of resources?

-In order to find asteroids you need access to a DSAT which is t3. In order to mine t3 via units you also need t3 ore for the advanced autominer. Will it be impossible to get t3 ore without already existing t3 ore?
 
 
 
 

This is the final nail in the lid for this game.   If they cant see that by now there is no hope.  
 
Another game comes to mind that is dead set on not paying attention to the majority of players and listens to the vocal minority. They have barley 400 people playing on weekends now.  They are using that as an example,  Good work NQ.  lol 

To be honest the only way I see the game taking off is going back to pre .23. Buffing engines or making them smaller.  finally  Stop the punish the player behavior!   It just makes people leave. 

This was the absolute best game since SWG  by a wide margin pre .23  The only thing it needed was more content. 

I agree by 100%

Game has lost its track and became punishing simulator.

NQ Game designers: please reconsider about what you are doing.
 
- Call To Action – Say NO to territory taxes -

QUESTION: 

Are you trying to punish PvE, New, and Solo players? First the miniscule number of PvE Asteroids, and now the taxes on territory that yield less ore per hour than you can mine per 5 second scoop currently. 


Comments on question.

Based on the numbers from PTS, you need 20-30 territories and many more miners to yield a steady flow of resources

All this is going todo is assure is that the inflated ore market becomes more inflated, and that smaller orgs, solo players, and new players have virtually no chance to ever progress, and force people into just doing hauling missions, which in turn forces them to risk PvP Conflict, which with the new changes increases the chance of now being not able to replace what you lost.

I understand this is a civilization building game. To have a civilization you have to have groups, large groups, even nations or mega corporations. But if you remove the ability to make an impact as an individual, or even be able to function self sufficiently to a good degree, what's the point? 

What is the attraction for a new player?  "Welcome! Now pick one of 5 mega organizations to join, or spend the next month collecting your daily reward to build your first ship. By the way, if you want a Territory not on Sanctuary, you are going to need to find a way to make more money, because the daily reward won't even pay for your taxes for one territory."

Honestly I have rarely said anything about the game updates. Even schematics. I enjoyed the challenge of working hard to build something. But honestly, if these extraction numbers stay anywhere in the neighborhood where they are now, I honestly think my time will be better spent elsewhere. This is not a threat, or me generally just whining. I love this game, I truly do, but this will literally suck the enjoyment of the game right out of me. 

You have the ability to create and maintain what is likely the best MMO in a generation - Don't waste it on bad  decisions. Listen to your player base, what remains, learn from the many people who have left. When Beta hit, the first couple months were amazing, despite the bugs. When you looked at Dual Universe on a streaming site, it was loaded with people building, PvPing, exploring, and enjoying the game, with thousands of people enjoying watching them.. But if you look now, you see the same few streamers, with maybe a couple dozen viewers, if anyone is online at all.

Listen. Learn. Debate. Act. Do better.
 

Hi NQ, 
For me the value of the Mining in L/h is sooo ridiculus ! in ONE HOUR 1/2 scoop of traditional mining ? how to build something or create something ? 
the atmo break stacking is the onlty way to have enought break without kill the ship design !! please leave it !
thanks for your feedback !

After seeing the video and getting hyped for DU again I almost resubbed my account to come back to the game. (only been gone since Apollo issues).  I was like now this, this is the right direction.  Now after reviewing with my org the details on the test server I am no longer hyped. No longer impressed and no longer even considering for a moment about returning to DU if these changes go live.  

Not only will this destroy literally every build I have in the game and remove them permanently (I don't make 27 million a week in profit on anything) but as someone who has health issues, there is no way I can sustain my building enjoyment vs the tax rate.  NQ asked players to BUILD THE WORLD so there was stuff here when the release happened so that new players would see a world full of builds. Now with taxes the world will be barren.  Did someone just take a 2 week vacation with their family for the holidays? Oh great all of their factories, builds, etc have been taxed and unpaid and now simply gone.  They return after a good family outing to find out that NQ has deleted everything they worked for due to taxes.  That ends their enjoyment of the game, and they move on to other games. 

Even mobile afk games have enough buttons to press to keep people playing games like AFK arena for years.  Come on.  You get so close to something good, something that hypes the community only to throw in some STUPID last minute thing that completely destroys your reputation as a game developer. Its too much for any White Knight of NQ to deal with.
 
________________________________________________________________________________________________
 
What Demeter COULD have been.

-Auto-mining and more asteroids resulting in more ore in the economy.
-Time saving feature allowing players who build to have a constant supply of ore (although low) to build the world with
-Beautiful builds arising that function better and have less lag due to the ground rework
-Rebalanced Ore economy due to surplus from players not using the ore (or orgs mass mining to supply markets)
-Voxel tools making building with voxel easier, saving more time for players.
-More time saved = more builds = more pvp content as people have time to have fun in DU. (since they have to mine less)
 
________________________________________________________________________________________________
 
What Demeter IS GOING to be;
 
-Auto-mining costs more than the ore that is mined. (tile with 500L/hr hematite generates 2.1m in value to bots in a week, 1m cost to own the tile, likely 1-2m to ship the ore if not on Alioth in warp cells, saved to 400k if slowboat)
-With the increase in ore stabilizing the ore market, the lack of ability to pay the taxes results in NO ore on the market
-Players who aren't "Hardcore" and are "Casual" or have real lives losing their builds
-Ships now cost so much that the ore will never be attainable for the ships to be built.
-ALL ships PRE-Demeter become INVALID
-All Ship designers pre-demeter leave DU when this releases rather than completely overhauling everything they ever did in DU since September. (see Apollo update results)
-PVP will die off completely as orgs/pirates will not be able to afford the taxes on the ore they need to repair their ships and players will not risk hauling anything valuable without warp due to the taxes consuming 90% of the value of the ore before you lift off the planet with it.

_____________________________________________________

What should NQ do then?!
 
-Remove taxes from this update.
-Remove brake changes from this update
-Research how to implement "decay systems" into your game properly.
-Remove weird ass mechanics from Auto-miners that not a single person has said was positive. Wtf even is this. 

_____________________________________________________

Suggestion on HOW to implement TAXATION for CLAIMATION.
 
-Players place the core, receive a pop up that asks the type of tile it will be and selects one of the following options;
Residential Tile (Housing and cool looking builds with no functionality) Minor tax (150k/week) or No Tax (already paid upfront) Industrial Tile (Designed for Industrial tiles with factories) Medium tax (300k/week) Mining Tile (Designed for Mining Units) High Taxes (450k/week) Commercial Tile (Designed for selling goods) Taxes paid off sales (10%-20%) directly from dispensers. This will allow players to choose what they want to do;
 
To further elaborate- Residential tiles cannot hold industry units.  Industry Tiles could have a maximum # of allowed assemblers, Mining Tiles could be the only tiles that allow autominers to be functional, and Commerical tiles are the only tiles that allow use of dispensers.  Residential tiles could be green, Industry tiles yellow, Mining tiles Red, and Commerical tiles blue on the map.  
 
This would allow players to identify the tile type in the map and see the various commercial tiles around the worlds and encourage them to go shopping. (boosting economy)  Which highest traffic ones could eventually end up with market areas (as previously mentioned at the end of Alpha)

WAR DECLARE SYSTEM- This suggestion would tie into future features like the War system as orgs could identify mining tiles or commercial tiles of their enemy orgs while at the same time leaving alone those massive Residential builds that everyone loves to visit that won't gain them any profit for attacking. 
 
This would also allow a decay system to be put in place for people who just leave the game for "too long" and would remove many of the towers that exist of people who haven't played since 0.23.
 
_________________________________________________________________________________
 
TLDR:  If NQ implements taxes/brake changes to DU, the game will die fully. These changes don't increase the time for FUN, they remove the FUN entirely.  NQ I strongly urge you to PAY ATTENTION to this update more than you did the last 2 and LISTEN to these ONLY TWO REAL complaints from the community and X them out before this goes live.