Maxim Kammerer
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Posts posted by Maxim Kammerer
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2 hours ago, Xennial said:
The same would be true in the game world if ore bots did not exist at all. The daily log in bonus (or whatever systems replace it) would be the central bank printing , and the schematic/tax bots would be the sinks.
In theory, yes. But I already mentioned above that NQ would need to act like a central bank and regularly adjust the daily login bonus. Does it look like they have a proper qualification? I don't think so. I don't want to see the amount of circulating money in their hands only. With the market bots players have at least a small chance to inject cash into the game when required. This ability should not be removed but extended. Isn't it JC's vision to have a full player driven economy? Than give players the tools required to ensure price stability.
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16 hours ago, Xennial said:
I didn't forget anything. I specifically said schematics , taxes, even bp creation are quanta sinks.
You claimed:
20 hours ago, Xennial said:If you got rid of bots , prices would naturally arrive at whatever value is appropriate for the circulating money.
That is simply not true for the money sinks. Their prices remain unchanged, even when the circulating money goes zero.
The amount of money circulating should grow with the amount of products traded on the markets (more precisely, it should grow a bit faster). This is currently not the case. But with the market bots there is at least some kind relationship between trades and generation of cash. Without the bots there would be no such relation at all. The amount of products would be increased by mining/crafting and decreased by permanent destruction. The amount of cash would be increased by the daily login bonus and reduced by the money sinks. Both processes would be decoupled.
If the playerbase dumps more cash into the money sinks than NQ pumps into the game, the amount of money circulating will decrease. You are right that the product market prices will decrease too. But that doesn't stop the amount of circulating money from decreasing. All you get is permanent deflation with customers not buying because they are speculating for even less prices the next day and industry not producing because time to return of investment goes infinite. The real economy will freeze and the financial economy will bleed to death.
If the daily bonus exceeds the money sinks we would get inflation. That's not as dangerous as deflation but still not healthy for the markets.
Without the bots there would be no chance for the economy to regulate itself. In order to keep it stable NQ would need to observe the markets and to adjust the daily bonus accordingly on a regular base. That just means we would be doomed (we are talking about NQ after all).
16 hours ago, Xennial said:The quanta injection can be covered by the daily log in bonus and whatever system they choose (ex: missions) to inject quanta into the game to keep the money supply from deflating.
The daily login bonus is just a placeholder that needs to go until final release (money should be earned and not gifted) and the "whatever system they choose (ex: missions) to inject quanta into the game" is exactly what everybody is asking for but NQ failed to deliver so far. The bots remain essential for the economy as long as we don't have these "whatever systems".
16 hours ago, Xennial said:The fact that bots exist in this injection capacity right now was always a huge design mistake, and they should have just left it to daily log in bonuses.
Market bots are not a bad idea in general. But they need to be designed correctly. NQ has no clue how to do that. They would need to consult an economist. That is not going to happen.
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10 minutes ago, Atmosph3rik said:
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The role of mining is to produce ore, which can be used to make stuff.
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Funneling Ore and Quanta out of the game isn't part of the economy.
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What you're doing is like walking into a half built house and pointing to the unfinished roof and saying, "rain is going to get in here, we need to tare it down and build a roof that doesn't have a hole in it."
Sorry, I didn't realize that you are talking about a game you are dreaming of and not the game we have and will have in the forseeable future.
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1 hour ago, Xennial said:
If you got rid of bots , prices would naturally arrive at whatever value is appropriate for the circulating money.
Nice idea. But you forgot that schematics prices are fixed.
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2 hours ago, Moosegun said:
The only slight benefits to the player is that it is the payment is instant and most players are too lazy, to turn the ore in to actual products and wait for them to be sold (making as much as 4x) the ore sales value.
Without enough Quanta circulating you can wait forever for your products to be sold. Even with bots as source of cash there is currently no chance to get 4x the ore sales value. With a lot of products you can't even make profit at all because they have market prices far below their ore sales value.
2 hours ago, Moosegun said:you DO NOT need a constant influx of money to keep an economy viable, there is enough quanta in circulation at the moment if it was actually traded between players
That is wrong in theory (with money sinks (e.g. schematics) there must be corresponding sources for cash) and in practice (deflation is still ongoing).
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13 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said:
I think the theory is that if there is a high demand, and no supply, the value of ore will increase to the point that the potential profit is enough of an incentive for people to go out and mine.
The value of ore is fixed by bot orders. It can't depend on demand as long as selling ore to bots is the major source of cash.
13 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said:Eventually there will be enough ore, and the prices will drop, and then maybe almost no one will mine for a while.
You still don't see the problem. The major role of mining is not ore supply but generation of cash. If almost no one would mine for a while the economy would run out of cash and collapse.
13 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said:The missing puzzle piece right now is Demand, not supply.
The missing puzzle pieces are additional ways to inject cash into the game.
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5 hours ago, Xennial said:
No, what your talking about is money generation within the game. That is different from a player 'making money' to fund whatever activity they are trying to do. Two different concepts.
You missed the point. All methods of making money other than 1. and 2. as mentioned above require sombody else to generate money for your. They don't work if to many players try to do that. That makes your statement misleading. The majority of players need to grind to make the game working.
- Deintus, CptLoRes and merihimRefin
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1 hour ago, Xennial said:
There are MANY different way to 'make money' in DU other then mining.
Currently there are just two ways to make money in DU:
1. by getting the daily 150 kℎ
2. by mining and selling ore to bots
All other ways to 'make money' just mean that other players make money for you. If they stop doing it, because they are bored to death, you will need to do it yourself. Than you have even less time to do everything you want to do because you are mining all day long.
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8 hours ago, Kill Code said:
no option to wipe without pissing everyone off.
The number of players that would be pissed off decreases every day.
8 hours ago, Kill Code said:2nd thing they needed or need:
Creative mode for building
That is actually planned. But it has a side effect. A lot of players will stay forever in creative mode. As soon as JC realizes that there are even less players left for his beloved civilization building, he will nerf the creative mode to death because players don't use it as expected.
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1 hour ago, Aaron Cain said:
Apparently we do, it is called build mode where you can delete your structure
I wouldn't call that self destruct but deconstruction because the construct can't do it itself. However, you are right that it has the same effect (if you survive long enough).
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13 hours ago, XKentX said:
The former is cheap tactic that should be fixed by disabling container access and build mode
There is nothing to be fixed. Scorched earth is legit tactics. Be happy that we don't have self destruct.
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8 hours ago, XKentX said:
There should be something (atm T4/T5 ore) that is ONLY accessible in PVP areas.
PvP is only accessible in PvP areas. You want PvP? Stick to PvP area. What's the problem?
8 hours ago, XKentX said:You don't want PVP ? Stick to safe zone mine t3 buy t4/t5.
That's exactly how DU is advertised (see above). It seems DU is not the right game for you. It can't be the PvP heaven you are looking for. Everything you are destroying needs to be build by other players. This is only possible if destroying is much more difficult than building or if there is much more non-PVP than PvP. That means in order to make the game a success NQ needs to keep everybody out who is just looking for easy pray - either out of safezones or out of the game.
- Supermega and OrionSteed
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1 hour ago, XKentX said:
Yes, it's pvp game as advertised. I want to shoot you (to pvp) safezone prevents that.
I still do not see the content you are talking about above. However, I just checked the DU page and it says
"From pirate raids to skirmishes to coordinated attacks: space is a dangerous place. With real-time destruction, battleship crews and player-designed ships, this is PvP like no other. Don’t want PvP? Stick to Safe zones and you’ll be fine." (highlighting by me)
It seems you got something completely wrong. DU is advertised with PvP between ships in space and - even more important - with safe zones for non-PvP players.
DU is also advertised for
"Create entire cities, giant space stations, massive warships, underground bunkers or… flying cars!" and
"Mine. Craft. Build and optimize production factories. Then barter or trade your creations, or those from others. A shared universe means a single, global economy - run by players."
The safe zones are there to protect this gameplay from your lust for destruction.
1 hour ago, XKentX said:If you think this game has any chance without pvp then you will be surprised to see "we ran out of money and don't get enough from 150 people left in the game. gg" msg sooner rather than later.
This is pointless because there is PvP. For the case that you think PvP requires non-PvP players to shoot at: That would be a problem with only 150 of them (even in the very ulikely case that they do not leave the game without safezones).
- Aaron Cain and Atmosph3rik
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13 hours ago, XKentX said:
Just remove the outer planets safezone already, let us make content !
What does that mean? Does the safezone prevent you from making content? I would rather say it prevents you from destroying content.
- Wolfram and Aaron Cain
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1 hour ago, Underhook said:
OK, I have not played for a while, I didnt think the distance to star measurement was accurate enough (as in not enough decimal points) to see a change without flying for several real time days.
Within the bulge of the galaxy you can easily find very close neighbours with a distance of less than 1 LY. With 1000c it would take less than 9 h to reach the other system and around 1 h to see the distance changing in the last digit. But that doesn't happen.
It would have been technically possible to create a complete seamless universe in ED (even with individual instances for every system). But that would just make problems (e.g. the possibility to reach permit-locked systems) without significant benefit.
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42 minutes ago, blazemonger said:
as there is no new production and there is no other way for players to sell anything directly outside of markets.
In the view of recent changes I wouldn't be surprised if this is intended (in order to force us to use the markets) and that the remaining dispensers are an oversight.
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2 hours ago, Underhook said:
1) You cant stick a pilot seat on it and fly
2) They dont automatically collapse
I don't know if a pilot seat can be attached to a static construct or not. I need to check that. However, not flying and not collapsing is more a property than a rule. It seems you missed the point. I am talking about limitations for the player - for example preventing them from placing floating static constructs, single-voxel towers or even clouds of single voxels into populated airspace.
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2 hours ago, Underhook said:
Static constructs also have rules which it would seem you dont like
For example?
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2 hours ago, Underhook said:
Pretty sure you can fly from one system to another in ED. It takes years though.
No, you can't. I have checked this with close neighbours. The distance never changes - no matter how long and fast you fly.
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Eins fehlt noch:
On 1/4/2021 at 8:17 PM, Sunshadow said:- Was benötige ich, um auf einem anderen Mond eine Basis & Claim zu errichten?
Du brauchst eine Territory Control Unit für den Claim und eine Static Core Unit für die Basis. Für den Anfang sollte ein S-Core reichen.
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9 minutes ago, Bobbie said:
There you go, thank you. And that's exactly what's different about DU with regular travel up to 30k (we're not talking about warp here). There is direct interaction with everything at every scale at any speed, that's why there has to be a speed limit.
No there is no difference. With regular travel there is direct interaction with everything at every scale at any speed in both, ED and DU. That's why there has to be a speed limit. With fast travel (warp in DU or supercruise in ED) there is no direct interaction in both, ED and DU. That is something that all online space sims have in common (due to the same technical limitations).
15 minutes ago, Bobbie said:Voila, this is my point.
But DU is even worse in this regard. ED has full scale systems at least in normal flight mode. In DU they are scaled down all the time and don't even have orbital mechanics.
whats wrong & how to fix
in General Discussions
Posted
I believe it when I see it. Since 0.23 I didn't sell anything 50 % above ore value. Most wares don't even sell below ore value.