Megabosslord
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Posts posted by Megabosslord
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Yeah, true, the rep system needs some thought - to keep it simple would rely on players giving persistent rep points to other players, and org agents doing the same on behalf of an org. The algorithm would be something like:
my rep score = SUM OF [points awarded to me by any player or org ÷ total points issued by issuing player-org* x rep score of issuing player-org** x time subscribed***]
...with 5 important caveats:
- This logic of weighting value of points (* above) serves several purposes: It normalises points issued across orgs/players - I might be handing out millions, while others are issuing 1 at a time. But the weighting must be based on the base values at the time they're issued, since I could change tactics later. This also gives the issued points their intrinsic value, since the more points I hand out, the lower the value of my individual points - thereby incentivising me not to just hand points out to anyone. It does away with the need to limit points issued by either a financial cost or other false cap (e.g.: only issuing as many points as you've earned.)
- All players orgs must start with a base non-zero value or the algorithm fails (** above)
- Weighting by time played - capped at launch - (*** above) means we're all effectively earning more points to spend with time, while also gaining credibility for playing for longer, so you can't just spin up a bunch of new orgs and alts to game the system.
- Total SUM is necessary, rather than an average, to avoid gaming with a high score from a single 3rd-party and to incentivise dealing with as many other parties as possible. It also means a org rating quickly becomes more valuable than a rating from a single player.
- You do need to be able to look up the players profile and see where their points have come from. Transparency is key to an effective 'points' marketplace. Players will quickly figure out if my rep score is bogus, or has been gamed through reciprocal arrangements or org stacking by double-checking on my profile.
- The fact you can just buy points from someone else may sound broken, but it's actually a feature - since you can then be remunerated for building up your own rep and selling your points to others with the important caveat above that I need to be able to see if a rich org just paid for it's rep.
[EDIT: I've looked around at other rep systems, but it occurs to be it must be bespoke since the dynamics of players, orgs, and subs are all unique to DU.]
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PROBLEM:
Most will agree NQ appear to be running low on resources, but also that the game is not release-ready.
NQ are also sitting on a huge opportunity in the gaming marketplace. Minecraft and Roblox are both multi-billion dollar franchises with 100s of millions of players, and paying out a demographic dividend of a user base outgrowing "children's" games and looking for an adult equivalent. Minecraft av. player age is now >25 yrs. while 15% of Roblox players or ~30 million players are over 25yrs. Both these franchises started by small indy studios demonstrating the magnifying effect of properly leveraging user-generated content (UGC). Both are rich in lessons learned. Meanwhile, the apparent focus on collecting refugees from EVE Online (of which I am one) is a dead end. It's a mid-tier <500k player game and the whole studio is worth a measly $500m. Done right, there's no reason NQ couldn't be sitting on a billion dollar franchise as well.
But this huge opportunity is time-sensitive. If they don't captivate some market share soon, they'll be competing with an improved version of SC, and Bethesda's incoming behemoth Starfield.
Releasing now is death.
Taking too long to release is also death.
Getting one more release right, and launching well equals a massive potential for gaming conquest.
SOLUTION:
The right combination of fast, low-cost dev options and some bold new creativity, is required.
Here are my TOP 5 suggestions:
1) Basic 1HP voxel-eating critters with an engineerable solution. A simple PVE loop, like the early addition of Creepers in Minecraft, is not as good as full PVE (or territory warfare) but pays a disproportionate dividend and signals intent, and franchise potential - while also adding to immersion, game lore, suspension of disbelief.
(It's also totally impossible in any universe that trees evolve with no complex carbon-based life. During Earth's Carboniferous period when trees first evolved, there were already 10ft long centipedes and giant dragonflies. We can even hear them already, for crying out loud.)
Even better, critter populations could also be weighted to resources on the tile (i.e.: high value resources require more effort to secure than just getting to the tile first.) But it has to be kept simple for now - no elaborate combat system, Just shoot a critter with your Skittles laser, one hit one kill. And it only attacks a structure when you're logged in, and nearby. It can be iterated on later.
2) A cool new toy with every release - and a commitment to continue this into the future. This is straight our of the early Minecraft playbook as well. In the first year when Creepers, Skellies, red stone, pistons, Villagers, new mobs were dropping with each release, the franchise grew exponentially. For NQ, add something exciting with every drop - a tractor beam, ship-mounted asteroid mining laser, a programmable hinge that lets you connect two constructs... There are many more options (wheels, walker legs...) but they require too much dev time for right now. Put those on a list for the future.
Notes on a hinge: Why am I banging on about hinges? Well, I was there pre-alpha when Minecraft first added pistons. The boost on chatter and subs of players messing around with the new tech for months was massive. It was vital (along with adding red stone, which we already have in the form of LUA) to Minecraft's' early success. A simple addition like this pays a disproportionate dividend, ignites player interest, signals intent, and franchise potential. A simple programmable hinge between constructs (along with a multi-core BP) keeps players busy for years figuring out ways to utilise the physics - gates, draw-bridges, giant ship grabbers, prisons, jumping/walking constructs, articulating craft, obstacle courses... and probably a hundred more things I can't think of. But that's the whole point.
3) Reverse dispenser w/ LUA money API. This has been a gaping hole forever, and now sounds close (?) But the simple ability to read container contents and make pay-outs without having to do manual wallet transfers, answers the cries for player-run markets that were promised in the Kickstarter. We can then build our own merchant systems the same way players have built HUDS, while also opening up a million new gameplay options: Insurance companies. Interest, banks and lenders. Stock markets. Salary payments and loot sharing systems. Combine this with 'physical' coins - 1 quanta item with a fixed value that can be bought, sold, stored and shipped like real cash - for even more gameplay opportunities, and a more liquid economy.
But most importantly, the ability to script payments creates an incentive system for players to leverage and invest in player-generated gameplay loops: in-game puzzles, racing, treasure hunts, obstacle courses, and so on. This is probably the biggest opportunity of all, since it's essential the whole business model of Roblox - now the biggest franchise in the world. Let the players create games for other players. One player-created obstacle course in Roblox 'Tower of Hell' has been visited 17 billion times, just to get their name on a leaderboard. The popular community-run activities in DU today - AD's Dome, Friday Night Racing - could be just the beginning. The desire is there, just not the tools. Which also brings us to...
4) Full Rep System. If every player had a rep score with every org, and every org with every org, it creates an additional incentive system for player-generated gameplay loops (win rep with my org by delivering my goods... or winning at my challenges) while also helping self-police bad behaviour. A banking system doesn't work without a form of credit history. No in-game games work without ensuring opponent's play fair.
Better still, an aggregated rep score for each player built up from their rep with each org, multiplied by that orgs rep with other orgs (so a rep point with a high-rep org is worth more), provides a single metric for all performance while also self-reinforcing the value of rep. I want to get my rep score up, because then my score of someone else more highly valued. Easily built and implemented.
[EDIT: Possible rep algorithm described 2 posts below...]
5) 'Test flight' option. Spawn a time-limited copy of the ship on 'pilot only' RDMS. This adds significantly to the FTUE since new plays can go flying in space within minutes of getting started in the game, and give them of taste of what they can work towards when they build/buy a ship. Doing it inside the game world adds to immersion, but spawning in a tutorial-style space is probably easier to code. At the moment, handing someone who just bought a space game a flying bicycle to start out, is underwhelming.
SUMMING UP:
There are many more even more exciting new features I'd wish for (e.g.: drones w/ no collision damage or weapons capability, combined with the ability to have multiple controllers running at once incl. while far away, logged out, or operating another construct OR a smoother way to parse a RNG variable in LUA back the server to sync between clients) but they all have significant dev cost, or don't work on a client-side engine, and as such are wishful thinking at this point.
But one more release crammed with 1-5 above would be a game changer. Everything else can go on a roadmap, if NQ build enough social collateral with the next release.
Most important of all though, to get the final moonshot right, NQ must consider their own TOP 5 deeply, think well outside the current paradigm, and canvas players for input.
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On 5/3/2022 at 2:19 AM, Jinxed said:
For me, the #1 priority is PLAYER CONTROLLED MARKETS.
For a game that is ostensibly "player controlled" it's stupid how many bots there are.... bot ore digging, bot or selling, bot scematic purchasing, bot land registry and remote disable of machinery, bot mission givers, bot mission receivers, bot marketplaces, bot taxmen, bot safe zone.
Players actually have very little agency at all in this game.
Here's a question: Wouldn't the Reverse Dispenser (which they've also been circling forever) and/or money API (ability to automate payments based on container contents instead of manual money transfers only) fix this? One of these SHOULD have been done when they first did wallets, per the discussions at the time.
If we could build our own merchant systems in-game, it would solve this and a dozen other problems at the same time. (My OP suggestion above is just an easy out for NQ to stop-gap a secondary problem.)
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2 minutes ago, Jinxed said:
There needs to be a "virtual test world" where the player can test the ships they are interested in free of interference in a virtual environment.
This has been suggested before, but doesn't seem likely.
Likely NQ are not really open to any more suggestions in reality. It seems they still haven't even finished the list of requests from the Kickstarter, let alone listening to us lot tell them what we think is best.
Thanks. Yeah, that's what I thought. It's kind of annoying they're expending dev effort on stuff like fiddling with bezier curves when there's some easy wins to make the franchise more profitable.
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I've long suspected that if a new DU player can't get airborne in the first few hours of gameplay, we're losing players. The initial DU loop of building your first space-ready ship is fun for some, but it's niche. The starting speeder is 'meh'. Every other space game just gives you a starting ship that you can pretty easily fly into space right out of the 'dock'.
But there's a problem, right?
If you give every new player a basic space-ready ship it frigs up the economy. A glut of ships, parts, and destroys ship-builder income.
But there's a simple solution:
1) Make the UEF store (much) bigger.. Or have 10 of them around the starting locations.
2) Allow players to take their ship token (which already locks it out) to a terminal at the store and pay a fee equal to X% of the price they set for the ship, to submit the token. (This terminal is most of the new code.)
3) The ship spawns in the UEF store on the existing style of 'for sale' display.
4) New players - or any players at all - can walk up to the display, and choose 'test flight'
5) The ship spawns on a nearby pad with pilot rights only, restricted to the test pilot who chose 'test flight'.
6) The 'test flight' player can test fly the ship for a period of time (or until they die) after which it de-spawns and the player is returned to the store.
7) The player can then chose to buy the ship from the store. The tokenised original is ported to the pad, and the seller receives their moula.
Ship builders make money. Creates no ship/parts glut. New players can go flying in their first 5 minutes after FTUE, even before they have any money, and get a taste of what's to come.
Thoughts/comments: go.
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Got my space cores 50.8kms from Aegis. Now I just need to know if NQ gonna wipe space cores before I build a space station...
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On 4/26/2022 at 6:14 PM, NQ-Ligo said:
HI Yoarii !
I just saw your topic yesterday, so replied on it
To summarize your post :- Trigger controller from a container event : The main problem I see for this, is that this analog signal will start the controller, ok, no problem here, but will not provide any data because it will not trigger a potential event like onAdded for example, so lose interest no? Adding a Lua event providing the interacting player, or the added element ... etc has a strong potential, but the logical signal, not sure. 🤔
- Reverse dispensers, as answered on your topic The forgotten Dispenser API , it would need a new dev on it to add it. So it may take some time.
- Adding a smaller dispenser: means a new asset to design and a lower dev but still to do. And logically a limitation on one aspect, because otherwise it will make the "classic" dispenser useless; to be considered.
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Multiple containers per dispenser : Can be a tricky point, because can lead to an high server cost on container change subscription. Not sure can be done 🤔
However, I hope this answers your question. And remember, I can't give any promises, we have a lot of work to do and some things you would like to see, and I would like to see, can't be done for a long time.
Has NQ considered a physical 'coins' object with a fixed value of 1 coin = 1 quanta? If a reverse dispenser or LUA wallet API is unachievable, we could use physical coins as a workaround to make automated or offline payments to other players by dispensing them in capped amounts from existing dispensers (governed by RDMS and/or control access to those dispensers using doors/detectors/LUA) and take deposits via container.acquireStorage(). This would allow (a) orgs to pay salaries or profit share, (b) operate banks, insurance companies, or stock markets, and (c) set up prizes for user-generated games and puzzles without the risk of arbitrage on a commodity with a floating value.
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21 hours ago, Modgud said:
At the moment, no. This is the plan for the future.
Hmmm. That's mildly annoying. It just needs to work the same way placing a static BP as placing a new static core.
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I didn’t get time to try the BP visualisation on PTS. Does it work for statics and snap to the grid of the construct you’re standing on?
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6 hours ago, CoyoteNZ said:
We need Lua for Dispensers!
set contents, set price, and events transaction made, or transaction failed.
Was really hoping this time when the post said new Lua functions 😩
And LUA control of rights (check player id) w/ reverse dispenser! (receive item, pay money!)
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Your daily reminder that multiple NQ staff in multiple channels, verbally and in writing, said we would get 'magic blueprints' if they ever needed to do a wipe:
(1:30) the reason for a wipe would be "(there is) something that we need to fix and there is no other but to wipe to fix it. I don't see anything like that coming... it's something that would happen if we really had no choice..."
(4:45) "we're going to do everything we can so that we don't have to go through a wipe again"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOp9nDzkxpc
(58:26) "It would be a very bad thing to say 'sorry guys, restart from scratch.'"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai3Kk37ntgg
(15:53) "Everything you build is forever"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD00-V_LKog
(31:58) "Whatever you do after beta starts is going to stay in one way or another... You will get what we call for the moment 'magic blueprints'... blueprints with everything included in it so you will be able to respawn the things as soon as we restart the server. So we don't like to call it 'wipe'... The key thing is the beta is really the start... You can start to invest yourself in the game. We guarantee that you're not going to be losing everything at some point... the universe is blank again, and you have to start from scratch."
- CyberDay, Distinct Mint, Atomi7 and 13 others
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On 4/17/2022 at 1:26 PM, Neuritico said:
80% of players who left New World it's just because New World it's not either a game, just nothing as Atlas, same for Lost Ark who is just boring and this last every day lose players, ppl who keep playing such games just because there is anything else around. Coz covid and many other reasons lot of games have been postponed. After 5 years of beta, DU need to make new marketing plans, and they cannot announce a release of a new game where players shall build everything a new society etc. if inside there are already players who did everything got everything took everything. This is already a good reason for them for a full wipe. As long as this game will keep be a Beta no one talk about DU, no magazine, no internet press etc. they did long time ago.
Exactly. Wipes never bring more players (aside from short term tourist bump, offset by existing players leaving.) New content brings more players. And every day they drag this out is another new player who will lose the progress they've made. It's wrong to even be pumping ads for the game right now on YT without warning players if their gameplay will be wiped.
- DecoyGoatBomb, Zarcata and Doombad
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1 hour ago, Moonagi said:
Full Wipe
Keep talent points though or some way for vets to regain them quickly.
Blueprints kept would be nice, but I could live with or without them honestly.
Everything can be remade or rebuilt in little to no time the only thing that wouldn’t be achievable in little time with a wipe would be talent points. Keep those please, but if you must wipe them too then I understand. I will play DU regardless of what happens. If you love the game you will continue to play.
I have 5 builds that took more than 200hrs each to build. You have no idea what you're talking about.
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2 hours ago, AbnRanger375 said:
I've been playing daily since the days of NQs NDAs. Yeah, I have some talent points too but they've been zeroed a few times already. Please, everyone, stop crying because you're too lazy to "rebuild again". If you've been around long enough you'd already know it isn't THAT big of a deal.
FULL WIPE!!!!!
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I takes a special kind of viciousness to want to see other players' property deleted when it has no bearing on your own gameplay.
- Doombad and Novean-61657
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(1:30) the reason for a wipe would be "(there is) something that we need to fix and there is no other but to wipe to fix it. I don't see anything like that coming... it's something that would happen if we really had no choice..."
(4:45) "we're going to do everything we can so that we don't have to go through a wipe again"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOp9nDzkxpc
(58:26) "there would be a gold rush to get back to whatever you wanted. That's actually not a good idea. We decided that we would rather not do that. There has already been a lot of investment made by a lot of people to terraform very very substantial parts of the planets... It would be a very bad thing to say 'sorry guys, restart from scratch.'" And that was just on a terrain wipe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai3Kk37ntgg
(15:53) "Everything you build is forever"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD00-V_LKog
(31:58) "Whatever you do after beta starts is going to stay in one way or another... You will get what we call for the moment 'magic blueprints'... blueprints with everything included in it so you will be able to respawn the things as soon as we restart the server. So we don't like to call it 'wipe'... The key thing is the beta is really the start... You can start to invest yourself in the game. We guarantee that you're not going to be losing everything at some point... the universe is blank again, and you have to start from scratch."
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51 minutes ago, nosfire said:
my group comes back after wipe we quit due to the extreme amounts of exploits creating a unfair advantage. others i have spoken with are also coming back with a wipe one of those groups has close to 150 people.
The same people who quit cos they got left behind the first time, will quit again when they're left behind again.
- LosNopales and Aleksandr
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What the hell do you mean 'favourite Constructs'?!
Why on earth would you destroy ANY of the creations players have designed?
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On 4/1/2022 at 7:53 AM, Kruzer said:
There is a portion of folks who'll only come back or continue to play if there is a wipe and there is another portion of folks who'll only come back or continue to play if there isn't a wipe. I don't think either group is relevant because in my opinion, neither group is big enough to support the game and it is likely both groups are dwarfed by the portion that aren't coming back regardless.
My view is that the way to build the player base in a game is to focus on adding new content, not taking content away. In a UGC/UCC game, that extends to the content players have created. (DU's biggest asset is the LUA and voxel content we've built.) We need certainty these assets are valued appropriately.
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On 3/31/2022 at 1:46 PM, Msoul said:
The topic reads like you are pulling your youtube videos in protest. If so, I don't exactly agree with that approach but to each his own. Either way all the devs did was casually drop in a reminder that they would be following up on the wipe discussion soon. Literally nothing has changed yet. A wipe was always on the table and we have already seen a few instances where a partial wipe was both needed and performed. I get the frustration of not knowing what the future holds but the game is in beta. When you signed up to play you took that risk of having your progress wiped, many others didn't and are now praying for a wipe. Bets have been placed and winners will be decided soon. All of the recent "if you wipe I will quit" and "if you don't wipe I will never play" statements just come off as self-serving and likely hold very little sway over the actual decision. If you want to contribute some meaningful feedback then head on over to this thread and share your thoughts on how a wipe/no-wipe would be better for DU as a whole.
Also, I sincerely hope you restore your videos at some point. Even if DU were to one day fail I for one would still enjoy watching them and remembering the good times.
Thanks Msoul. Not so much protest, as basic courtesy. And ethics. I'm not going to be part of promoting the game, encouraging new players to join, if those players are only going to make a start now and have their efforts wiped soon after as well. Anyone who joins the game now should be able to make that decision with full visibility on what they're investing their time in.
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20 hours ago, blundertwink said:
Release will actually be a huge wave of marketing -- launching a new MMO tends to get press, and NQ has shown that they aren't shy about ads...they just don't want to run them now because the game isn't ready.
One loyal player is worth 10 new players. Every MMO that ever wiped had a temporary bump of tourists, then within a couple months had even less players than it had before the wipe. Look at the stats:
Atlas (spot the wipes): https://steamcharts.com/app/834910#All
Same for Last Oasis: https://steamcharts.com/app/903950
Even New World now has 1/5th the player it had during open beta.
And here's the opposite story - an 'open world' space game that has never wiped, also gets a short-lived bump on each release but always settles ABOVE previous av. player count by always focussing on releasing new features and content, NEVER WIPING and letting players keep what they already have: https://steamdb.info/app/275850/graphs/
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After the longest post ever that actually says nothing (below) NQ have successfully made speculation of a wipe even worse - making everything more vague, and crushing any optimism that was keeping us building.
Until we get some clarity if there will be a wipe of any kind, or to what extent, there's just no point promoting current builds (since they might soon be gone) or gameplay (since the player might soon be gone as well.)
When will NQ realise current players ARE their marketing?
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I played early classic Minecraft ~13 yrs ago before 'survival test' added skellies/creepers/etc. It took Notch 5 mins to figure out Minecraft at a minimum needed PVE. Even NMS has basic PVE - deadly weather, some hostile critters, sentinels. Territory warfare might have saved DU, but without that or some minimal PVE I'm not sure it's a complete game.
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On 3/24/2022 at 2:39 AM, blazemonger said:
Damn @CptLoRes .. How did you figure that out so fast
I'd say I'm pretty much spoonfeeding what I believe to be a very viable alternative in context to where the game is right now, yes..
I don't know if NQ have given up on territory warfare (seems that way?) but without it, there's little value in building energy management at all - given that 1/2 the point was that some territories are better than others. (Based on the OG game pitch.) So, without territory warfare or variable territory energy output, I'd question the objective of any energy management at all.
DU NEEDS ONE MORE RELEASE BEFORE LAUNCH... BUT IT'S GOTTA BE THE BEST RELEASE EVER.
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