Samedi

that could be achieved with "energy consumtion" in factories - a bigger factory is more focussed on WarpCells and WarpDrives plus some "Uncommon Military L-Atmospheric Engines" but then has no capacity anymore for some of the pipes /screws or even "uncommon burners" which are needed in the example above. 
 
Each Account has his Energy pool and he can also share some with his org (similar to the tile contrubution).
Someone who wants to use 3 accounts to have enough for the full industrie also pays 3x subs. And anyone's happy. Otherwise its either T1 products or the fancy stuff, but not both at the same time (=longer production times).
 
That way we could get rid of the schematics as well - otherwise we'll be back to the pending operation orgies.
 
THE PERFECT SOLUTION for so many issues - but never ever seen or acknowledged by NQ.

Honestly, I think that the design ship has long-since sailed, so I'm posting this more in the spirit of floating an idea of how it could have been, rather than any expectation that it might happen. That said...
 
I've been thinking about what is broken about the economy/industry, and the main thing that occurs to me is that unlike real life, there is no real niche for "artisan" builders.
 
In the real world, mega factories and mega corporations do exist, and they do largely dominate the market for cheap consumer goods (whether we want the game to mirror real life is maybe a question for another day, but at least we can probably say that in this detail, the game isn't massively inaccurate).
 
However, in the real world, there are also people and smaller companies who make high-quality, low-volume stuff. You can either buy a mass-produced Ford, or you can buy a custom-made McClaren super car. The super car is ridiculously expensive, but to some lucky people it is worth it, because it is very rare, and very high quality. Likewise you can buy some chairs from IKEA, or you can find someone who makes amazing chairs by hand. You'll get something extra from the artisan furniture maker, but it will cost you, because it takes a long time to make them and each one is unique or at least very rare.
 
This is where I think the Dual Universe simulation falls down: there is no way to express the quality of something, other than the very crude tier system. Furthermore, there is no sense in which an "artisan" builder can get themselves to a position where they can make better stuff than a mass-production builder. Even worse, really the only barrier to building high tier stuff is having the ridiculous amount of money required to buy the schematics - which I suspect makes it virtually impossible for someone to do it without first becoming so rich that they can effectively make a mega factory if they want.
 
What I think would help with this would be if every item in the game - from ore through pures through parts all the way up to elements - had a quality stat. Probably expressed as a percentage, so that it has a large, continuous range, rather than just the crude "low, medium, high" kind of thing that tiers represent right now.
 
Being able to make high quality stuff would require high quality input materials, high quality industry equipment, and high skills for the particular item(s) being built. If you want to specialise in making something to a really high quality, it should be possible to do it without being insanely rich, but it should take a lot of time; enough time that no single user could ever make everything at the highest quality. Megafactories could still exist, but they'd have to compromise on quality. This would carve out a niche for individuals to become artisans, and they wouldn't even necessarily need to be making actual elements. Maybe all you ever do is make top quality screws! If someone is making top quality military engines, they will need those screws, and they may not have enough time / skill points to make the screws themselves, so they have an incentive to buy yours. Orgs will still exist, and still have power, but that power will derive more explicitly from the combination of the skills of their members.
 
What I like about this idea is that I think it might create more of an incentive for people to work together, and it might make the trading economy healthier and more diverse.
 
Of course, the quality stat would also have other uses. Equipment could reduce in quality over time if it was used, so that eventually it "wore out" and you'd want to replace it. Weather effects could slowly erode the quality of anything exposed to the elements, which again would give a reason for things to be replaced. This should be slow (taking months or years) but gradual. Repairing an item would bring it back to full functionality, but reduce its quality - which would serve the same purpose that the "repair three times then you have to replace it", but in a much subtler and more lore-friendly way.
 
As I said at the start, I doubt very much whether design changes of this scope will ever happen now. It's nice to dream though...
 

Not really... It happens often within companies that people/departments are still 'discussing' issues, while the people making the decisions have already made up their minds. The marketing/communication department can't (yet) read minds, so what they are communicating is the 'truth' as they know it... I've seen a LOT of internal 'discussions' just being done for the form of it, to give employees a feeling of inclusion on the decision. But the reality is, that 95% of the employees are not able or capable of making business decisions, they can provide information to the people making the decisions, but that's it.
 
I suspect that NQ is in a tight spot financially, so business decisions will be driven by that I expect... We have no insight in to hard numbers, so no clue if keeping the 'old guard' (that is still here) is even part of the financial equation.
 
Imagine alienating the 'old guard', that means they do not use their 'free' DAC... $$$  

NQ is like... am I going to punch you in the face? I might... we're considering it. Please discuss.

NQ has generally pushed away most sensible ideas and suggestions coming from the community based on it "being too difficult to implement," "not having time and/or resources", "not being a priority" and more such terms.

I'd agree that NQ has locked their feature set for what they call "release" and on top of that, the game's core is so bare and basic it has no room to accommodate anything innovative or radically different from what they are doing now. 

I have made quite a few fairly detailed suggestions over the years and certainly the last two year and as with many others, have really not seen anything that would tell me NQ ever really considered anything but their own ideas, even when they were shown that these would not work or would be too basic.


It's also very interesting to see NQ deflect ideas because "it would be a lot of work to make that happen" and then come out with new stuff that basically covers exactly what is needed for the original idea. Things like refueling ships at a base or even from another ship really should be possible with existing mechanics, transferring fuel from cargo/storage to fuel tanks should really not be hard to achieve. 

I've posted on power management with a solution which would not potentially solve several existing problems, it would allow for a good basis to expand the mechanic towards the future.
 
I posted on a better way to introduce schematics to the game loop(s)
 
I posted on better element deterioration mechanics
 
I've posted ideas on multicrew gameplay (construct mangement) options which, when discussed with NQ were deemed "interesting" but from that obviously never went anywhere.
 
 
Al of these ideas were posted early in beta and frankly, well before that.. and NQ really can't maintain the "no time" excuse on these IMO ..
 
I guess the point is that NQ has had ample time and opportunity to come to a pretty well rounded base game but instead opted to plough ahead and now end up with something extremely shallow and limited and effectively not all that much different from where they were three years ago, in fact they took a few massive steps back by removing core gameplay and replace it with a cheaper version that mostly plays in the UI and not in the game world itself at all.
 

Well.. It did tell us that NQ is bad at executing stalling tactics.. Like really, really bad.

100%, still not sure why people think anything that happened during beta was any different that stuff that happens on other mmos during the games life cycle. Exploits happens, dupes happen, systems get changed. Nothing that has been done is anything any different than any other MMO. You take care of stuff when it happens, or you suck it up and move on. Post release there can be 0 talk about wipes in any context. Your already forcing those who were not original backers to pay a monthly sub to something so "releasing" really isn't anything different, just removing the beta tag, that's literally it. We know stuff like schematics and industry can be changed without a full wipe, its been done when it was added. Tell us what we know has already been locked in at this point and stop pretending the community is full of 5 year olds who actually believe otherwise.

All those are 'normal' MMO issues that NQ MUST be able to handle without wiping the game.
If they cannot, then it will only be a question of time until a new wipe will be needed after release. And another one, and another and so on..
 
I mean we all know that the game will be unfinished when released right? And with major changes to the game coming after release, it means that those issues and worse are bound to happen again also.

That is easy to say if you don't have literally years worth of effort stored as assets in the game. A game where players have payed real money to play in a mmo where PERSISTENCE was one of the main selling points.
 
So basically you are saying that burning bridges with the founding players with years of experience in the game, is a good thing that will make a fresh start that will make new players flood the game for...   reasons..?
 
In my opinion the only thing that will be fresh from a full wipe, is the vitriol and bad reviews/negativity that it will generate.
 

If you are going to do a wipe prior to release then do it right:
Grandfather all those who have been subscribed to Beta for 3 months or more into the alpha program at a level commensurate the length of time they subscribed  (i.e. give them DACs) Give everyone eligible for DACs  or who preorders the release a starting pool of talent points (e.g.  30days worth of training). Preserve blueprints. Note: in practice most are obsolete or require a lot (months) of resources & industry development before they can be used. FIX the ECONOMY! A wipe will NOT do that by itself. I suggest: Have all marketplaces on a given planet or moon reference the same pool of buy/sale orders. Sale orders can be created at any marketplace like today. Buy orders can be fullfilled anywhere on the planet (no flying back and forth just to get an item which can be crafted locally faster). Perhaps a new kind of dispenser could be created for use in static constructs.

They could also wipe nothing - You let players move to solar system 1 without items, they keep talents, money (or a max amount of money) and blueprints. The difference - once moved you can't get back to the current one (solar system 0). No matter how you spin it, you're going to have to cut back to find a compromise without feeling screwed for the monthly money you paid. And new created characters start in solar system 1.

Also please understand that wiping a persistent building MMO like DU, is VERY different from a normal beta->release transition wipe in a regular MMO with traditional mechanics.
 
So any numbers showing that lots of people join at release in some other game that wiped. Will be skewed by the fact that most "other" games are wiped by default, simply because they have a completely different structure where that makes sense.
 
And I am playing DU because of this, since DU is not like all the other MMO's (at least not when it was sold to us in the beginning).

A wipe makes no sense, other then to give some very ultra competitive players an small edge (in a game you cannot win no less) for maybe a month at most until the game stabilize back to the same old. So by that rationale there would have to be a regular wipe every 3 month or so, to make the game "fair" for new players. Or maybe that is not really what the pro wipe players are actually looking for?
 
A wipe will not improve the economics, a wipe will not fix missions, a wipe will not make pvp better, a wipe will not bring content to the game and most importantly a wipe will not make this game fun. The only thing a wipe does is remove experienced players who are desperately trying to make a game that is worth playing and content..
 
And also.. Judging by what NQ says is to be the final patch before release, this game will be far, far from feature complete. So from that perspective a wipe at release makes even less sense, since there will/must be rather large changes made to the game later on like territory war, proper missions, player controlled markets, PVE etc. etc. if there ever is going to be a game worth playing in the long run. So what will be the excuse for a second wipe even after release in a so called persistent MMO where players are paying a subscription for the content?
 
 
 
 
 

Game launch - that's generally the time when access is given to the general public.
Does the general public have access to DU? Yes - I'm a paying customer since May 2021.

The "game launch" you speak of is just a marketing ploy. It is not the grand opening of the flood gates to the millions of eagerly awaiting enthusiasts who did not manage to secure a limited spot in a closed beta. In other words, few players are waiting to jump to DU when it "launches".

For Dual Universe the beginning of the "Open beta" was its true and only Game Launch.

So for the people playing DU right now this "game launch" has as much relevance as does the rain over the ocean for the fishes swimming in it.
My conservative estimate for a split between current players and new players post-"launch" is 90/10. As in 90% of players will be the existing players.

When you see it that way, you'll understand that screwing 90% of the user-base for the expectations of the 10% will be a stake through NQ's heart.

To be honest, when the game is "released" the only thing that will keep me in the game is the kickstarter DAC's.
Simply because there is NOTHING currently in this game that I would pay a subscription to play. So in effect NQ will have as long as my DAC's last, to improve the game enough for actual subscription play.
 
And if there is a wipe, then I won't even bother using the DAC's..

I've seen this statement often, please explain.
 
Because from my perspective, if there's a wipe-wipe, I won't be returning. Actually, I would strongly advise people against playing DU if it happens.
 
A wipe-wipe, won't change anything for 99% of the players in a month. As the same dedicated players with too much time, corp players, RL money, etc. will be in the same top positions. New players won't have a chance in hell to compete with that. In the mean time, getting started in DU for new players will be HELL! As nothing will be available that's player made, at a low price (as it is now). So leaving Haven/Sanctuary will be virtually impossible as people can't build or buy a territory control unit...
 
Look, I loved getting started with beta, but it was a completely different game then. For one, Schematics, for another planet mining or surface ore respawning. You looked at what some of the Alpha players where doing in the first weeks/months and you got inspired. Doing that again under the current restrictions wouldn't be much fun (for me) imho...
 
As for current new player being left behind? They can sell their ore, and it will be bought. Just look at the current ore sell prices, see many Sanctuary sell orders or small sell orders? Would certain people have the quanta to buy that from new players if there is a wipe-wipe? No. New players can/could often pick up nice BPCs from builder characters like Hagbard, would the be able to now? No! Because Hagbard can't produce a dispenser after the wipe-wipe, he wouldn't even be able to buy one...
 
So new players wouldn't be able to get the much wanted resources like specific tiles with ore, that's just for the big dedicated corps. Hell, 99% of the current players wouldn't be able to get to them either, unless you are a highly placed person in one of the big dedicated corps. It didn't happen with the last landwipe, it won't suddenly happen now. Scanning for a new player sounds like a good way to get started, but how exactly would you get that scanner? Those Schematics are expensive! No big corp would sell their scanners before they are done scanning themselves...
 
And if you think that there will be no new player due to the 'inequality', what would happen to new players six months down the road, a year, two years? The only similar MMO i'm familiar with that has a similar concept (of persistence) is EVE Online. When I started EVE in 2005, I was already late to the party by two years. Large corps ruled Null Sec, many have risen and fallen since then, I have never been part of that (by choice). What I have done in the last 17 years (often many years off) is control certain items on the markets or even the market in a certain section of space. The big strength of EVE is imho that even if I've taken off years, I can always get back and pick up my chars where I left them. Doing new things, trying the old things in a different environment, etc. NQ has already pretty much said that if no subscription, then everything not on Sanctuary (and I expect Haven) will go POOF!(tm) eventually. The problem is that people are not trusting NQ enough at the moment that even the Sanctuary/Haven space will be save from deletion (eventually), people are not trusting NQ because they might wipe-wipe again. There goes the whole persistence concept...

Just if we are going to wipe it every year.
In one year we'll get the same that we have now.

NQ is just in over their heads. They made some server tech that splits the main server frame into smaller sub-grids and splits those again and again, should increased activity or density in those grids require more performance that justifies its own shard. And with that tech-demo, they should have refined and sold it to a proper game studio that knows what it's doing and might actually properly apply it to a game.
 
Instead, NQ vowed to take this tech and use it themselves to make their own game: Dual Universe. And here we are, years later, with a half-baked, issue-ridden game with bare-bones gameplay loops, a fancy tech demo at best. And funny enough, it already shows that their tech isn't as holy-grail as they'd want it to be, severe server issues have plagued us recently more than usual and desync has been an issue since the beginning.

New features are always half-baked, not properly tested, more often than not break something, feedback apparently not taken. And the lack of communication takes the piss on all that.

Just look at all the issues posted on diverse discord servers with just the obstruction and placement of the radars with this change. Free-floating radars, some meters away from their constructs, still show obstructions in some cases. This wasn't tested on a PTS or anything.

Not sure honesty is the correct word..  Lack of competence feel more right to me.
Or to quote Hanlon's razor. "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
 
And stupidity is truly the only way to explain this whole wipe deal and how NQ has dealt with it.
- If they have decided on some form of wipe (very likely) and are delaying the announcement until release, then posting the "internal discussion" blog was utter stupidity.
- If they do not want to wipe, then not telling us as quickly as possible is just stupid.
- And if they are actually not capable of making a decision in the time we are talking about here, then management in NQ is so dysfunctional that it can only be described as.. stupid.
 
And actually, while I wrote this last point more as a joke. When I think about it, it does describe NQ behavior over the years very well. So who knows..

All the timescales sound way too short to me. Two weeks is nothing.
 
I'd like to see things a bit more stretched out. Give us a month or two with territory transfers enabled so that we can get our heads around which territories we want to keep and who needs to own what. Then a month or two more with rents enabled but no territory reclaiming / forfeiting. Let that bed in before you start throwing people off their tiles and destroying their stuff.

That is all well and fine, except for one minor detail.
DU is a voxel building MMO. And with the TAX there is absolutely no incentive any longer to spend time building, except for on 5 HQ tiles for the entire universe.

And when every player in the game suddenly want to sell ore to pay for taxes, then what do you think will happen with ore market prices?
 

1,000,000 quantas a tile?!! A Week?!! Right. Not all of us live in Mommy and Daddy's basement playing DU for ever, we have jobs and like coming back home to our families and then getting on DU for some building and shooting. Not logging in to pay taxes or moving ore to pay taxes. I do that a plenty in real life thanks. I am aware that its necessary for a tile tax but that is nuts. In the DevBlog they said that a million a month was getting poor reviews from the player base, and now they take it one step in the wrong direction. Mine to pay taxes, pay taxes to mine. HQ tiles were to be TAX FREE, NON-TAXABLE, TAX SHELTERS to give players an offset from the tax issues. Why have the DevBlog and a Q&A video if they aren't gonna stick by what they said. This is infuriating.

All the timescales sound way too short to me. Two weeks is nothing.
 
I'd like to see things a bit more stretched out. Give us a month or two with territory transfers enabled so that we can get our heads around which territories we want to keep and who needs to own what. Then a month or two more with rents enabled but no territory reclaiming / forfeiting. Let that bed in before you start throwing people off their tiles and destroying their stuff.

Since I have now given up a lot of territories and had to tear down massive amounts of buildings and outposts in order to escape the tax pressure, I am only interested in one thing about the whole new system:
 
-> Will space stations remain permanently free of any taxes or obligations for players in DualUniverse?

I would just like to keep building. No obligation for taxes or obligations to always log in, even on holiday or in hospital/rehab. 
Please, at least leave the space stations alone for peaceful builders.
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