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Hey all! I'm curious as to the functionality of larger ships and the ships systems. I've seen in the videos put out by the devs so far that large stations will have control rooms and each display will show certain ship systems readouts on them. My question is this... will large "Capital" ships be able to be controlled by one person, or will the larger ships and stations need to be manned and controlled by multiple players. For example, can a single player control piloting the ship, shields, weapons, engines, etc. or do you need a gunner, helmsman, engineering, etc.?

 

tldr: will ships have AI to run ships systems or are players required for each system?

 

In my opinion, you should have to have a player assigned to each major ship system, if not each turret, on the ship. This requirement will keep "mega organizations" (like Goonswarm used to be in Eve) from bringing hundreds of large ships into a fight and being able to do whatever they want whenever they want.  Instead, they'd be able to bring a smaller number of ships with greater functionality to the battle, thus giving smaller organizations a chance. (think rebel alliance vs. the empire)

 

Your thoughts?

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I think it should ,if possible, be up to you. If you have enough friends to man your ship every time you go into the game and get to play that way fine. But most people cant coordinate that well or might have friends in different time zones, so I think if you need a crew it should be either NPC or player, since many will prefer NPC so they will always be there when you need them.

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First, I see another Captain is in here. Good :) .


And ships will be up to you to decide how many guns you put on them and you can't aim everywhere on your own. You have to have people aiming for you, since the LUA script units, the DPUs, will probably run on power and you know, you don't want power to be diverted on tasks you can have actual people doing, since power, means fuel, menas more cost for your ship to keep going.

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Okay, thanks, I hadn't read up on the LUA scripts and DPUs yet. I think that really helps sort out the problem in my head. And I assume a skilled human crew would be able to handle the controls better than a script.... that's an interesting design choice too. Man, the possibilities with this game are endless!

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I strongly doubt that running scripts to aim weapons and fire turrets will use fuel. That's a bit of an exaggeration. If our ships use that much fuel for common easy to understand things like auto targeting and firing turrets then they use WAY to much fuel in general. If they do then the game will fail, simple as that, no one wants a game where they need to micromanage every tiny detail every time they stop at a station. That's why many games say that Fusion Reactors run the ships, they are fueled when they are bought, and only need refueled once every few years, unless you're an explorer that never sits still. Space combat games I've played since back in the 90's all use similar things so that people can play and have fun. Managing little things gets tedious and is not fun. Fuel loading and reloading? Done automatically when we dock, and we don't even have to think about it, that's playing and having fun...go ahead and add a fuel costs... if its reasonable, but make it too expensive to play and people wont stay, that's all there is to it.

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I strongly doubt that running scripts to aim weapons and fire turrets will use fuel. That's a bit of an exaggeration. If our ships use that much fuel for common easy to understand things like auto targeting and firing turrets then they use WAY to much fuel in general. If they do then the game will fail, simple as that, no one wants a game where they need to micromanage every tiny detail every time they stop at a station. That's why many games say that Fusion Reactors run the ships, they are fueled when they are bought, and only need refueled once every few years, unless you're an explorer that never sits still. Space combat games I've played since back in the 90's all use similar things so that people can play and have fun. Managing little things gets tedious and is not fun. Fuel loading and reloading? Done automatically when we dock, and we don't even have to think about it, that's playing and having fun...go ahead and add a fuel costs... if its reasonable, but make it too expensive to play and people wont stay, that's all there is to it.

 

I have no problem with refueling a ship with say, uranium, like in Space Engineers, as long as the fuel is fairly easy to obtain and doesn't get used up ridiculously fast. I agree that dealing with minutia can get very tedious, but it also adds to the emersion of the game. Finding a good balance between the two is what makes a great game.

 

I also have no problem with AI cores taking up more energy that if the system was operated by a human. There has to be a trade off between automation vs. player controlled, be it power consumption or effectiveness of the system, or else you risk knocking the game out of balance.

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I strongly doubt that running scripts to aim weapons and fire turrets will use fuel. That's a bit of an exaggeration. If our ships use that much fuel for common easy to understand things like auto targeting and firing turrets then they use WAY to much fuel in general. If they do then the game will fail, simple as that, no one wants a game where they need to micromanage every tiny detail every time they stop at a station. That's why many games say that Fusion Reactors run the ships, they are fueled when they are bought, and only need refueled once every few years, unless you're an explorer that never sits still. Space combat games I've played since back in the 90's all use similar things so that people can play and have fun. Managing little things gets tedious and is not fun. Fuel loading and reloading? Done automatically when we dock, and we don't even have to think about it, that's playing and having fun...go ahead and add a fuel costs... if its reasonable, but make it too expensive to play and people wont stay, that's all there is to it.

Sorry to be the one to break it to you, but micromanaging is what the LUA scripts are for. And you can't expect having such a powerful tool for free. I would suggest reading the devblog on what you just described. And Fusion Reactors need fuel, it's called hydrogen, and battleships run on fuel, DPUs (who are like CPUs), will need power. They confirmed there will be pipelines to bring power to different screens, modules etc. This is not EVE 2.0 with arbitrary HP points. You blow a ship's power grid off, you gutted them good.  

 

And where would you dock to refuel? The non-existing NPC docks? Players will make the fuel. Players will make the docks. And players want money. Ain't nobody building things for pretty's sake.

 

 

 

I have no problem with refueling a ship with say, uranium, like in Space Engineers, as long as the fuel is fairly easy to obtain and doesn't get used up ridiculously fast. I agree that dealing with minutia can get very tedious, but it also adds to the emersion of the game. Finding a good balance between the two is what makes a great game.

 

I also have no problem with AI cores taking up more energy that if the system was operated by a human. There has to be a trade off between automation vs. player controlled, be it power consumption or effectiveness of the system, or else you risk knocking the game out of balance.

Yes, indeed, there should be an energy - string-of-commands ratio on how much a DPU consumes. Also, how a builder of a ship handles the cost vs the effectiveness of the ship is what the voxel building system is for and will show who has skill at making good ships, as the ships will have mass depending on materials. So, you can build a ship out of steel, but it will be heavy, OR you can build the ship's frame out of steel and its hull and outfit the interior with lesser grade materials of your choice, then balance the thrusters so the ship is not derpy on its flight and then you manage the amount of power cores. A good example would be the Titans in EVE. 

 

 

Sure, you can build the Titans of EVE in Dual, but it would take time for people to figure out the correct materials, fuel efficiency and how to fly iit. Dual is not a point and click adventure on a flat map like EVE is. A ship has to have thrusters above and below it to move up and down (similar to Space Engineers) and guess what, an accelerating, massive ship, will have to put more power into its thrusters to avoid an enemy ships broadside in a firing run. Again, this won't be like EVE's combat system where two ships stand across one another and pew pew, with random numbers dictating the outcome. DUAL aims for a lock-on system and those automated lock-ons of a ship like a Titan, would have to be powered to provent solo players from building them, but giving big organisations with resources a reason to establish dominance.

 

If you find calculating center of mass, researching ways of reducing mass on a ship and the correct way to build a ship's frame or having to learn how to script in LUA, then I am afraid that building ships is not for you. But hey, you can be the best pilot that ever's going to be. 

 

 

Peace good sirs.

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I think it can be controlled by by one person but a crew would be more efficient at responding to everything that u would have to on a big ship

 

But it's also more dangerous I think that mutiny is possible

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I don't know if any of you have played Artemis, but if you haven't, you should look into how that plays out.

Sure the different Elements will provide different controls and such. It would be relatively possible for a single person to maneuver a ship. But when you factor in sensors, movement, defenses, offenses, etc etc, there simple isn't enough WAYS a player can operate it singly.

Having specific stations for people with devoted screens with the fine details of that section, so Weapons control, Communications control, engineering, maneuvering, And maybe all the inputs feeding up to a captain who only sees the bigger picture indications and relies on his crew to do their job. This would be the best ship. The Outlaw Star of the galaxy. Multi-manned ships will begin to easily out perform single manned ships, even with advancements in AI control.

This will start the break down of the different classes of ship. There could be large single man frigates, multi-manned destroyers, etc. Dual-piloted fighters that have a pilot and a gunner so that one focuses on dodging and positioning while the other focuses on aiming and countermeasures.

...I sorta like Dual Universe a lot now.

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There will also be overall fleet commander that would look over a whole battle and tell ships what to do

 

This means there will probably be flagships

 

There will also be carriers that have many smaller ships in side

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I would say yes it's possible. But you should be able to get a lot more use out of systems if there were dedicated crew to help in the functioning of the ship.

 

I've suggested before that in the realm of combat and targeting, you should be able to mark specific points for turrets to shoot at. Otherwise, they would just target some other random point that is less useful.

 

Or as for sensors, a person could be continuously running scans, targeting specific areas of space. Perhaps there could be some sort of minigame which increases sensitivity.

 

And as for comms, well I will just say, don't text and drive. You never know what planet you might crash into.

 

And so on for any other kind of ship's system.

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I think it can be controlled by by one person but a crew would be more efficient at responding to everything that u would have to on a big ship

 

But it's also more dangerous I think that mutiny is possible

Sir, a machine can be precise on auto-mode. A human is always slower than a machine. If the LUA script is made correctly, a ship can aim automatically, the real question is on how much energy the automated targting system should consume.

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Everything depends on how the "autiomation" will be balanced. I personally do not expect a single guy driving a huge ship by his own, with scripts all over it. There will probably be automated turrets in game without even the need for scripts, and those will be way less powerful than the ones that requires a player to aim manually. or they should find another way to balance it, but for sure, a player driven ship will be way stronger than a 1 man army, or the game wouldn't work. 

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You missed the memo on what's the point of having programs good sir. 

 

Programming's point is to solve problems.

Indeed it is. Scripting is pointless if it can't solve problems.

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I don't know if any of you have played Artemis, but if you haven't, you should look into how that plays out.

 

Sure the different Elements will provide different controls and such. It would be relatively possible for a single person to maneuver a ship. But when you factor in sensors, movement, defenses, offenses, etc etc, there simple isn't enough WAYS a player can operate it singly.

 

Having specific stations for people with devoted screens with the fine details of that section, so Weapons control, Communications control, engineering, maneuvering, And maybe all the inputs feeding up to a captain who only sees the bigger picture indications and relies on his crew to do their job. This would be the best ship. The Outlaw Star of the galaxy. Multi-manned ships will begin to easily out perform single manned ships, even with advancements in AI control.

 

This will start the break down of the different classes of ship. There could be large single man frigates, multi-manned destroyers, etc. Dual-piloted fighters that have a pilot and a gunner so that one focuses on dodging and positioning while the other focuses on aiming and countermeasures.

 

...I sorta like Dual Universe a lot now.

I like the way you think good sir. This is exactly what I was thinking, and hoping for with this game.

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You missed the memo on what's the point of having programs good sir. 

 

Programming's point is to solve problems.

 

But scripts ingame should run on a limited amount of functions, so they can't solve an unlimited amount of problems :D

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But scripts ingame should run on a limited amount of functions, so they can't solve an unlimited amount of problems :D

Multiple DPUs. Problem solved. If a DPU can interact with other elements, I will built a steam-punk system to make DPUs connect.

 

Gotta start thinking like a programmer yo. You'll be seeing the world in a more chill way. ^_^

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One area in which the benefit of multi-crewed ships would be apparent in combat is with respect to repair.  The devs have already mentioned the role of players in actively moving around large ships repairing damaged systems in real time, and this is likely something automated systems in the game would not be able to accomplish.

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One area in which the benefit of multi-crewed ships would be apparent in combat is with respect to repair.  The devs have already mentioned the role of players in actively moving around large ships repairing damaged systems in real time, and this is likely something automated systems in the game would not be able to accomplish.

You are both wrong and correct. Let me explain.

 

A script to run, will consume energy, and ships can't have an unlimited amout of power to support your automations. This is the balance between the two aspects, automations VS manual. And you can't have 100 players manning 100 guns. It's counter productive, but you CAN have one player, coordinating batteries of turrets via an in-game console. That's more like how a giant battleship would function. Keep in mind, a weapons' targeting system would require a lot of code and by the way I reckon this, DPUs will consume power depending on how many lines of code operate in it. So, here's your balance. You can make a ship being a one man deal, but it will be VERY, VERY, costly to get it out for a joy-ride.

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You are both wrong and correct. Let me explain.

 

A script to run, will consume energy, and ships can't have an unlimited amout of power to support your automations. This is the balance between the two aspects, automations VS manual. And you can't have 100 players manning 100 guns. It's counter productive, but you CAN have one player, coordinating batteries of turrets via an in-game console. That's more like how a giant battleship would function. Keep in mind, a weapons' targeting system would require a lot of code and by the way I reckon this, DPUs will consume power depending on how many lines of code operate in it. So, here's your balance. You can make a ship being a one man deal, but it will be VERY, VERY, costly to get it out for a joy-ride.

Perhaps I'm missing your point; what does this have to do with players actively repairing ships during combat? I'm unclear how your explanation of weapons and coding applies.

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Perhaps I'm missing your point; what does this have to do with players actively repairing ships during combat? I'm unclear how your explanation of weapons and coding applies.

Players WILL be needed to repair DPUs, because I can't see the DPUs not running on a "HP/per-use" healthbar. Otherwise the servers would crash by a troll having 100 DPUs going for infinite loops. Repairmen would have to keep the ship's system going on, especially during  a heavy fight. Also, people would be needed to repair the DPUs anyway, so the ship is in top condition, given it's a capital ship. Repairing, is not a "one man job" like coordinating a turret battery. It takes a crew to keep a ship up and running, while only one Weapons' Watch officer to keep the turrets aimed at the correct target.

 

Hope this clarifies my point.

 

 

And the DPU idea is legit. This is how and why GPUs and CPUs degrade in real life as well, although, not for balancing sake's but because silicon.

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Repairmen would have to keep the ship's system going on, especially during a heavy fight... Repairing, is not a "one man job" like coordinating a turret battery. It takes a crew to keep a ship up and running, while only one Weapons' Watch officer to keep the turrets aimed at the correct target.

 

Hope this clarifies my point.

That's exactly the point I made originally: the need for repair crews would be a benefit of a multi-crewed ship over a single-player ship. Something must have gotten lost in translation, but I think we're on the same page!

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