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The Great DAC Compromise Poll [Please Read Before Voting]

The Great DAC Compromise  

87 members have voted

  1. 1. Please read the post before voting!

    • Option A
      34
    • Option B
      13
    • Option C
      36
    • Option D
      4


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Pardon me sir, but I believe I stated that's exactly how I wanted it to be.  Maybe I should have said, "put in play" instead of "cash it in"?

I'm pretty sure you said

 

 

 "'m against lootable DACs.  I DO believe the main reason they are in game is to give folks who can't afford to subscribe, a way to still be able to earn their game time. There really isn't a better reason to implement them."

 

Also, are you sure you understand how DACs work?

 

You seem to think you buy in-game currency with them directly.

 

Digital DAC = unlootable

 

Digtal DAC = cannot be traded.

 

Digital DAC is printed as Phyiscal DAC = lootable / tradeable.

 

Real Money Buyer = gets their Dollars / Euros worth of the in-game money they managed to sell the DAC for.

 

Original In-Game Buyer = can either consume it on the spot and get the 1 month of free game time , or risk by having the DAC and trying to fix the market.

 

 

What part of that you fail to grasp? If the DAC is unlootable, I can hoard them and make everyone suffer just because I am a greedy opportunist. You want to take the DAC away from me? Cry me a river, they are unlootable, you can't do jack.

 

 

But if they ARE lootable, people can come after me for those DACs.

 

 

If DACs are unlootable = the economy doesn't work. It can be exploited to no end. And as I said, I have the patience to do that. I can make everyone's life miserable by manipulating the economy.

 

Buy low, sell high. It's a matter of time before my unlootable DACs make me have 90% of the in-game share of the market. I don't care for space-combat. I have no expenses. I simply buy and sell, doing that over and over.

 

Is it cheating? Nope. "Player-driven economy". I can drive the economy to the mud.

 

And those unlootable DACs make it all so easier.

 

I simply keep money off of circulation. Let's see how fun it will be if I make everyone hate me and my partnes for being the rich 1% that doesn't share the wealth, just because the whole "DAC price-fixing" has no counter-play, since they are unlootable.

 

What will you or the Devs do? I am not a cheater, I simply played the market. It's sandbox game, I can be the Wolf of Wall Street.

 

The system prevents opportunists like myself from being immune to counterplay.

 

How much before the fixed amount of circulatino makes the DACs worthless of their dollar / Euro cost?

 

You think the Devs can print more in-game money to balance me out? Cool, I start buying in he market again, increase my capita, then start messing with the market, by buying off of griefers' sales. What? I made the griefers have more money, better ships and more power than the rest of the game.

 

"Player-Driven Economy" , "Emergent Gameplay".

 

I just driven the economy to the depths of the sea and I pulled out the Kraken. :V

 

 

Vote for Option B or C. It protects the original buyer, it protects the people who want to play only with DACs and it brings a couneter-play to the guys who can REALLY hurt the in-game economy by being smarter than you with their money :)

 

 

Cheers!

 

 

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I thought we were discussing ideas presented in the poll, not what was already planned.

 

I don't like B.  C is not a compromise at all.  So A is what I would choose from the options provided.  However since we're throwing ideas around, I'd rather they be safe until a person actually decides to spend them - willingly. And I'm sure a fair amount of folks will do just that.  I am confident that there will be plenty of loot available for everyone to steal. 

 

Unless of course, it's the real money some people really want?  See, I don't think this thread is about the game economy at all.  I think it's about talking people into thinking it's OK to steal people's real money.  And I don't care how anyone wants to spin it, I am against it.

 

And I really don't care what your nefarious future goals to doom the economy are either.  If you want to sit around and horde DACs to cash them in all at one time and crash the economy, then that's your prerogative, I suppose.  But I doubt you will be able to destroy the game faster than the negative media the game gets from people getting their money stolen will though.  

 

Now I'll let you guys continue to sort out what is theft, how a DAC really works and all that.  My peace has been said.  But while you're doing that, some evil MF is hoping that you do talk the devs into them being all lootable all the time so that he can get his black market plans set up and ready to go by the time Alpha launches. 

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Now, let's say the buyer is not one of those who need the DAC because they can just fine afford their subscription. They plan on hoarding the DAC and resell it at a later date to CRASH THE ECONOMY (totally not my plan, I swear).

 

 

Those people, run the liability of keeping the DAC. It's a physical item, thus, they need a safe place to hide it and wait the opportune moment that they can sell the DAC at 10 times the price you sold it to them. 

 

That's what option C or B prevents. People who want to haord DACs and run no risk on their business. You know, "real economy driven by the players". When a good like a DAC cannot be stolen, that DAC becomes a pay-to-win it

Here is the error in your argument.  you are assuming that I cannot horde them safely to perform this market crash plan.  I can do this exact plan now in game even if the DAC are loot able.  So therefore there is another reason for you to want them to be loot able.

 

So now that we have cleared up the fact that your entire argument relies on scare tactics and fantasy, care to tell us why you really want them as loot able?

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the problem with this is, Player X buys the DAC from NQ, and puts it on the market to make in game credits.  Player Y buys it off the market and can use it to add a month of game time to their account.

 

The problem with allowing it to be looted is, if you force them to make it an object, then they have to travel to the market to retrieve it.  where they could possibly be attacked as soon as they do so, therefore loosing their month of game time.  There will be players that try to sucker in players to their area to do this exact thing.

Also, what if Player Y wants to hold onto it, cause he bought it so cheap (under market value) and has 3 weeks of game time left on his current account.  Now he has to worry about losing the DAC if he holds onto it till his time is up (maybe he is in the Military, and is about to go on a 6 month deployment, so it would be a waste to use it NOW)

 

No one is going to go buy a DAC from NQ to then use for game time, when its cheaper to have a subscription.  

 

That's a good point! Let's see what the devs will decide in the upcoming video... kinda curious to see how things will be handled.

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The problem with allowing it to be looted is, if you force them to make it an object, then they have to travel to the market to retrieve it.  where they could possibly be attacked as soon as they do so, therefore loosing their month of game time.  There will be players that try to sucker in players to their area to do this exact thing.

Also, what if Player Y wants to hold onto it, cause he bought it so cheap (under market value) and has 3 weeks of game time left on his current account.  Now he has to worry about losing the DAC if he holds onto it till his time is up (maybe he is in the Military, and is about to go on a 6 month deployment, so it would be a waste to use it NOW)

I said before, that I would agree with "Lootable DAC after 1 hour after the trade between players". Your example forced to change my mind. Choice A as before.

 

To stop "Resell" DAC must be bindable after the 1st trade. So if the player (buyer for game cash) gets DAC from another player (buyer for $$$), he has no option to sell it one more time. So as result DAC is what it need to be ONLY! Not lootable, not resellable.

 

Thanks,

Archonious

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Also, a great deal of these market manipulation aruments are under the assumption that players with DAC will simply try to play the market with them, or will trade DAC for in-game currency as a middle man to get some other service with in-game currency.

 

Anyone that works in business understands that since each trader is attempting to profit, the more steps involved in trading for your material, the less profitable it will be unless you intend to travel (which will be risky as soon as the DAC's will be offloaded in a DAC unlootable economy).

 

The smartest players will create contracts to trade DAC's for either finished goods, refined materials, or whatever service they actually want. Players that need subscriptions to keep playing will produce what is needed to fulfill the contract, and the DAC's will be in and out of the system free of price manipulation. Orgs do this internally to keep their lower rank players playing in their org: a highschooler spending 3 hours mining iron for a DAC is a fantastic deal for them, since they get another month to do whatever. Someone who works full time trading a DAC for 3 hours of in game work that they don't enjoy is a steal, since they make more at their job than that DAC is worth.

 

The only people who should be actually worried about unlooyable DAC's are people who want the satesfaction of literally robbing players. Be it a roleplay choice not to work for an org, or because the player just wants another way to be a jerk on the internet, that is what it boils down to.

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Here is the error in your argument.  you are assuming that I cannot horde them safely to perform this market crash plan.  I can do this exact plan now in game even if the DAC are loot able.  So therefore there is another reason for you to want them to be loot able.

So now that we have cleared up the fact that your entire argument relies on scare tactics and fantasy, care to tell us why you really want them as loot able?

Were you thrown off a staircase when you were young?

 

 

Don't you know how to read? I did explain the hoarding part. Hoarding DACs when lootable = risk. I can be robbed at any point, or be betrayed or anything that made EVE's "player-driven lore" what it was.

 

 

Having DACs being unlootable, makes it impossible to even remotely hinder my conomy-crashing plan.

 

 

I did also say that, with DACs being lootable, PEOPLE TAKE A RISK HOARDING THEM. Physical DACS = lootable = they need to be hauled, they carry risk of being stolen.

 

 

And before you say "Why be haued?", shall I remind you you wanna play the smuggler? It's like saying :

 

 

"HEY GUYS, Our organisation the Outfit is pointless!"

 

 

Oh, did you think a guy will take a 2 hours trip from system to system just to take the DAC they want? They will ask a space-trucker to go and pick up the cargo.

 

 

 

Look Galio, I know you want to believe we are here to make your cats' or family's life miserable, but the reality is, DACs being lootable, gives YOU a chance to fight against my plan :)

 

 

 

And if you want to know how I will mess up the economy, let's just say that when the demand exceeds the supply, oil-prices skyrocket. :)

 

 

And you won't stop that. You are in it for the explosions, I am in it for the market-crashing. You got expenses, I got spreadsheets.

 

 

And like in real life, spreadsheets win.

 

 

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I thought we were discussing ideas presented in the poll, not what was already planned.

 

I don't like B.  C is not a compromise at all.  So A is what I would choose from the options provided.  However since we're throwing ideas around, I'd rather they be safe until a person actually decides to spend them - willingly. And I'm sure a fair amount of folks will do just that.  I am confident that there will be plenty of loot available for everyone to steal. 

 

Unless of course, it's the real money some people really want?  See, I don't think this thread is about the game economy at all.  I think it's about talking people into thinking it's OK to steal people's real money.  And I don't care how anyone wants to spin it, I am against it.

 

And I really don't care what your nefarious future goals to doom the economy are either.  If you want to sit around and horde DACs to cash them in all at one time and crash the economy, then that's your prerogative, I suppose.  But I doubt you will be able to destroy the game faster than the negative media the game gets from people getting their money stolen will though.  

 

Now I'll let you guys continue to sort out what is theft, how a DAC really works and all that.  My peace has been said.  But while you're doing that, some evil MF is hoping that you do talk the devs into them being all lootable all the time so that he can get his black market plans set up and ready to go by the time Alpha launches. 

WHAT PART DO YOU FAIL TO UNDERSTAND? LET THE CAREBEAR SECOND LIFE PLAYER FURRY ASIDE FOR A MOMENT.

 

 

Can you read? (No apparently).

 

 

You buy DAC for 15 USD = That DAC is Digital, thus unlootable.

 

You want to sell DAC in game on the marketplace? = Make DAC physical, put it up on an auction, or sell it directly (preferable in a safezone).

 

That DAC = sold.

 

DACs are NOT direct subscription.

 

A subscription costs = 13 USD

 

A DAC costs = 15 USD for the sole privilege of being subscription that can be sold in-game for in-game currency..

 

They are different things.

 

 

Nobody will steal your real money DACs as long as you keep them digital / unlootable.

 

 

What happens to the DAC past the point you sold it, doesn't affect you the least.

 

 

If the buyer is a guy or a gal that wants the subsciption, the consume it on the spot. But if it's me and I want to hoard the DAC, I hav to go and place it somewhere saf, away from the marketplace that may be robbed in te future for X, Y, Z pirate reasons.

 

 

It's me the system prohibits from enacting economic warfare without risks.

 

 

It's like saying "oh the guys on Wall Street that nearly crashed global economy back in 2008, they should be let go free."

 

 

AGAIN (since you seem to be the kind of person learning by indoctrination) ,

 

 

DACs being Digital = unlootable.

 

To sell DAC = make it physical.

 

 

If your DACs are digital, nobody can rob you.

 

 

Also, If a person asks you to come and sell them the DAC in the middle of Detroit's ghettos, at night and you go there and get robbed in the process, you are an idiot.

 

 

 

 

At this point, you made it clear that you also know jack about smuggling. If you knew, you would be capitalising on DAC deliveries to sell your org hard.

 

 

But hey, you are an economics' peasant. 

 

 

What you don't get, is that I won't grief people with ambushes that destroy their ships. I will grief people with economy. And you are advocating on me to be impossible to be stopped. :)

 

A griefer in a ship, you may blow up, or gank up to.

 

A griefer in a market though, you need to be able to steal their wealth from them. And DACs being unlootable, makes my wealth impossible to steal. :)

 

 

 

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Were you thrown off a staircase when you were young?

 

 

Don't you know how to read? I did explain the hoarding part. Hoarding DACs when lootable = risk. I can be robbed at any point, or be betrayed or anything that made EVE's "player-driven lore" what it was.

 

 

Having DACs being unlootable, makes it impossible to even remotely hinder my conomy-crashing plan.

 

 

I did also say that, with DACs being lootable, PEOPLE TAKE A RISK HOARDING THEM. Physical DACS = lootable = they need to be hauled, they carry risk of being stolen.

 

 

And before you say "Why be haued?", shall I remind you you wanna play the smuggler? It's like saying :

 

 

"HEY GUYS, Our organisation the Outfit is pointless!"

 

 

Oh, did you think a guy will take a 2 hours trip from system to system just to take the DAC they want? They will ask a space-trucker to go and pick up the cargo.

 

 

 

Look Galio, I know you want to believe we are here to make your cats' or family's life miserable, but the reality is, DACs being lootable, gives YOU a chance to fight against my plan :)

 

 

 

And if you want to know how I will mess up the economy, let's just say that when the demand exceeds the supply, oil-prices skyrocket. :)

 

 

And you won't stop that. You are in it for the explosions, I am in it for the market-crashing. You got expenses, I got spreadsheets.

 

 

And like in real life, spreadsheets win.

 

 

Are you that special kind of stupid or do you think trying to insult people will win your argument when it was pointed out to you exactly where your argument failed?

 

Let me make it more clear for you since you are obviously an idiot.

 

Players can hoard DACs with no danger under your precious option C, and still crash the market!

 

So Your argument is what?  Exactly a BS excuse to try and loot them from the dumb players, or possibly scam them, since you are obviously a bully and a troll.  

 

this will be my last post on this matter, as you obviously don't care about other views, and fail to see the error in your own logic. 

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Pinky, why you want to make DAC as in game resource?

 

Why you don't like "Bind after sell" option? So it would be direct way for pay for game. No any kind of problems you try to solve.

 

1 pay for DAC real money and exchange it for in-game money/resources/other.

1 grind in-game money/resources/other for DAC and get 30 day sub.

 

No side effect, no trade abuse, nothing. Just exchange goods for play time. Exactly what DAC should be!

This is not compromise, this is what DAC was designed for.

 

Thanks,

Archonious

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WHAT PART DO YOU FAIL TO UNDERSTAND? LET THE CAREBEAR SECOND LIFE PLAYER FURRY ASIDE FOR A MOMENT.

 

^This is Blatantly unnecessary.

 

Can you read? (No apparently).

 

 

You buy DAC for 15 USD = That DAC is Digital, thus unlootable.

 

You want to sell DAC in game on the marketplace? = Make DAC physical, put it up on an auction, or sell it directly (preferable in a safezone).

 

That DAC = sold.

 

DACs are NOT direct subscription.

 

A subscription costs = 13 USD

 

A DAC costs = 15 USD for the sole privilege of being subscription that can be sold in-game for in-game currency..

 

They are different things.

 

^They are the same thing if a player is relying on them to cover their subscription.

 

 

Nobody will steal your real money DACs as long as you keep them digital / unlootable.

 

^ "AS LONG AS" is an operating phrase here. Somebody will get this wrong, and it'll be a serious PR problem.

 

 

What happens to the DAC past the point you sold it, doesn't affect you the least.

 

 

If the buyer is a guy or a gal that wants the subsciption, the consume it on the spot. But if it's me and I want to hoard the DAC, I hav to go and place it somewhere saf, away from the marketplace that may be robbed in te future for X, Y, Z pirate reasons.

 

^With Arkification and safe zones, how often will this even come up? why would the devs expose themselves to so much bad PR and code in different states for how DAC's behave in different circumstances for a narrow line of play?

 

 

It's me the system prohibits from enacting economic warfare without risks.

 

^There is always risk. Risk that DAC's become devalued, risk that the things you try and sell the DAC's for get destroyed or stolen, risk that people won't buy your DAC's or get destroyed on their way to buy.

It's like saying "oh the guys on Wall Street that nearly crashed global economy back in 2008, they should be let go free."

 

 

AGAIN (since you seem to be the kind of person learning by indoctrination) ,

 

 

DACs being Digital = unlootable.

 

To sell DAC = make it physical.

 

 

If your DACs are digital, nobody can rob you.

 

 

Also, If a person asks you to come and sell them the DAC in the middle of Detroit's ghettos, at night and you go there and get robbed in the process, you are an idiot.

 

 

 

 

At this point, you made it clear that you also know jack about smuggling. If you knew, you would be capitalising on DAC deliveries to sell your org hard.

 

 

But hey, you are an economics' peasant. 

 

 

What you don't get, is that I won't grief people with ambushes that destroy their ships. I will grief people with economy. And you are advocating on me to be impossible to be stopped. :)

 

^So you are trying to threaten us into agreeing with you, by what you'll do to us if we don't agree with you. Won't you do that even if we do agree? Empty Threat is empty  ;) 

 

A griefer in a ship, you may blow up, or gank up to.

 

A griefer in a market though, you need to be able to steal their wealth from them. And DACs being unlootable, makes my wealth impossible to steal. :)

 

 

 

^It is obvious that you simply have no answer to the objection that DAC's aren't wealth until you attempt to turn them into goods or services. Then once you do attempt to turn them into goods or services, those goods and services can be stolen or destroyed. That IS risk.

 

You won't have magical powers of monopoly over the economy, you won't be the only person buying and selling DAC's. your actions alone will NOT have an impact in the face of large orgs and the general populace. You'll spend your time mining and earning in game currency to buy DAC's to sit on just to prove a point. Meanwhile, you'll have to spend some of your resources maintaining the infrastructure you need to keep buying those DAC's be it pirate ships, traps, or just traditional industry and other players will be buying and selling DAC's like you weren't there. You simply cannot do enough damage by yourself to make this a compelling argument.

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I agree with option C but a little bit differently. I would like a safe at the arkship for all the DACs you bought with the Kickstarter. These DACs will be safe for a time, like a week say (depends also of the amount maybe), but then you need to use them or remove them from the safe and find another safe place that will never be 100% secured of course. Like this, the Kickstarter user will have a good headstart with secured DACs but not too much and not with unlimited amount of time.

Also why not make the safe at the Arkship paid then? Like a big subscription of 50% per month to save 50% of your coins for sure...

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I agree with option C but a little bit differently. I would like a safe at the arkship for all the DACs you bought with the Kickstarter. These DACs will be safe for a time, like a week say (depends also of the amount maybe), but then you need to use them or remove them from the safe and find another safe place that will never be 100% secured of course. Like this, the Kickstarter user will have a good headstart with secured DACs but not too much and not with unlimited amount of time.

Also why not make the safe at the Arkship paid then? Like a big subscription of 50% per month to save 50% of your coins for sure...

Lol... so much headache... it is even eorse than B...

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Lol... so much headache... it is even eorse than B...

It's just the idea of an ephemere safe that becomes paid after a while in order to balance the game.

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It's just the idea of an ephemere safe that becomes paid after a while in order to balance the game.

I don't like any ideas which directly strike to supporters and those who need DACs for subscribing. In other words, all ideas of make it lootable forced to damage to community and game itself.

 

Shame on these members.

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I agree with option C but a little bit differently. I would like a safe at the arkship for all the DACs you bought with the Kickstarter. These DACs will be safe for a time, like a week say (depends also of the amount maybe), but then you need to use them or remove them from the safe and find another safe place that will never be 100% secured of course. Like this, the Kickstarter user will have a good headstart with secured DACs but not too much and not with unlimited amount of time.

Also why not make the safe at the Arkship paid then? Like a big subscription of 50% per month to save 50% of your coins for sure...

That would be the wise thing to do. But the point is, once hauling is up and running in the game, DAC deliveries to distant customers will be risk-free. That's when the game will tank as an economy.

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^It is obvious that you simply have no answer to the objection that DAC's aren't wealth until you attempt to turn them into goods or services. Then once you do attempt to turn them into goods or services, those goods and services can be stolen or destroyed. That IS risk.

 

You won't have magical powers of monopoly over the economy, you won't be the only person buying and selling DAC's. your actions alone will NOT have an impact in the face of large orgs and the general populace. You'll spend your time mining and earning in game currency to buy DAC's to sit on just to prove a point. Meanwhile, you'll have to spend some of your resources maintaining the infrastructure you need to keep buying those DAC's be it pirate ships, traps, or just traditional industry and other players will be buying and selling DAC's like you weren't there. You simply cannot do enough damage by yourself to make this a compelling argument.

Oh, but I will. I will make certain there are no DACs in the market for anyone who actually needs them, but only when I want for the DACs to be in circulation, at a very high cost. Nothing can prevent me from build my stock of DACs by hoarding them, but only the fact of them being lootable off of my dead body.

 

And just so I can be clear to many of your like-minded individuals, I can afford my subscription on an annual package. Can Lilttle Timmy or Little Annie afford their suscription? 

 

Lil' Timmy will have to pay a fairly high price for that DAC after I am done Cartelling the flak out of them.

 

 

Ah... Capitalism. Such a glorious political system. It's like griefing, only with money.

 

 

 

And you won't be able to stop me. :V

 

My army of alts will soak up the DACs from the layman who doesn't know of Forum drama. The new players will sell DAC to me and I will send those DACs to my main character (or even to an Alt Account altogether, who knows? O.o )

 

 

And you can't do anything about it. Well, unless you vote for B or C. 

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Oh, but I will. I will make certain there are no DACs in the market for anyone who actually needs them, but only when I want for the DACs to be in circulation, at a very high cost. Nothing can prevent me from build my stock of DACs by hoarding them, but only the fact of them being lootable off of my dead body.

 

And just so I can be clear to many of your like-minded individuals, I can afford my subscription on an annual package. Can Lilttle Timmy or Little Annie afford their suscription? 

 

Lil' Timmy will have to pay a fairly high price for that DAC after I am done Cartelling the flak out of them.

 

 

Ah... Capitalism. Such a glorious political system. It's like griefing, only with money.

 

 

 

And you won't be able to stop me. :V

 

My army of alts will soak up the DACs from the layman who doesn't know of Forum drama. The new players will sell DAC to me and I will send those DACs to my main character (or even to an Alt Account altogether, who knows? O.o )

 

 

And you can't do anything about it. Well, unless you vote for B or C. 

That's adorable ;)

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Make DAC not resellable, and all your plan failed...

DAC must be sold by owner only (who spend $$$).

 

So if you bought DAC from owner, you can use it only, not sell to somebody else. Simple and not abusseable

That can work. No problem by me :D

 

The point is, they have not specified if DACs cannot be resold (soulbound mechanicsm). To make sure they consider that idea,  suggest you forward your suggestion at NQ-Nyzaltar in the forums on a PM. 

 

If DACs are not resellable, I would have no real issue. Price-fixing can't apply to them, but if they are resellable, I want to have RISKS, otherwise, it's not a realistic economy.

 

I rest my case to that. Good idea though sir, very good indeed.

 

 

Now see how many people will whine about THAT :P .

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I love how users in this thread continue to discuss DAC's as a risk-free currency when anything you turn DAC's into immediately exposes you to risk? It's almost like they ignore it because they can't find a good way to counter my point.

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It's almost like they ignore it because they can't find a good way to counter my point.

Because it is not a good point.

 

Yes when DAC is traded for a construct yes that construct gets destroyed.

But holding and transfering DAC is a risk free loop. I suffer no risk holding DAC.

Hence risk free.

 

;)

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