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Am I alone in thinking that Stargate Probes are a bad idea?

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But really, why the hate on "freeform" easy travel?

 

My concern is for the solo players and small groups. These players will likely not have the resources to own their own Stargate network, which means their very ability to even access more than 99.99% of this game would be entirely at the whim of large wealthy player organizations. These large groups will be the ones setting the tolls and the tags and the hoops that every other player would be forced to jump through if they want to see more than the starter system.

 

That does not sound like fun to me.

 

I have never understood people who pay to subscribe to an MMO game just to play by themselves. It is counter-intuitive to break game features built for players who actually want to work and play together just to accommodate people who want to never interact with anyone else in the game.  

 
 
 

They've said that the idea of having "billions of planets" is a nice marketing term but that's not really the point. They are more interested in having populated planets than they are giving everyone their own planet.

 

The idea of getting your own planet is for the people who made the effort to come together and put in the work necessary to get to one, either for resources or whatever number of possible reasons. And really, if they put in all that effort, they should get the fruits of their work. 

 

Coupled with the recent AMA response about how the skill system will work, time based like Eve Online, it doesn't really sound like new players will even have the exploration option open up immediately to them without first training the appropriate skills.

 

 

 

The "hate" on "freeform" travel is because it doesn't align at all with what we've been told about the plans for the game. What we've been told makes it unlike like any construction based space exploration game on the market right now, and it being different is why we're here.

 

There are already plenty of games out there that offer solo play and the ability to travel quickly around space and build whatever they want. Why try to change DU to be just like all of those games? I don't want more of the same thing, I want something new. Many of us do.

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I have never understood people who pay to subscribe to an MMO game just to play by themselves.

 
 

 

That is an easy answer. I have come across countless numbers of people who prefer to play solo in MMO's. The reason they like the MMO atmosphere is because the MMO worlds feel alive with real people running around. Single player games do not offer this. People essentially want to be around other people even if they are not interacting with them. Essentially it bolsters immersion.

 

It's no different than going out on a Friday night to a dinner and movie with a significant other or a buddy.

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That is an easy answer. I have come across countless numbers of people who prefer to play solo in MMO's. The reason they like the MMO atmosphere is because the MMO worlds feel alive with real people running around. Single player games do not offer this. People essentially want to be around other people even if they are not interacting with them. Essentially it bolsters immersion.

 

It's no different than going out on a Friday night to a dinner and movie with a significant other or a buddy.

 

The solo players ought to be even more well off then, in terms of immersion. If you were to consider the real world, a single person in most cases is not going to be able to get very far in anything just by him/herself. The same carries over here. This is an MMO, a massively multiplayer online game, designed to facilitate and encourage interaction and sociality. There is absolutely no problem in players enjoying a lone wolf playstyle in MMOs, but the MMO at its core is not designed to cater to these solo players.

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yamamushi, on 15 Jul 2016 - 05:52 AM, said:snapback.png

I have never understood people who pay to subscribe to an MMO game just to play by themselves.

 


Essentially, it's the idea that you are isolated by choice, not forced into it. I have no problem with solo players, as long as they don't treat other players like NPCs, which one too many sociopaths do. 

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That is an easy answer. I have come across countless numbers of people who prefer to play solo in MMO's. The reason they like the MMO atmosphere is because the MMO worlds feel alive with real people running around. Single player games do not offer this. People essentially want to be around other people even if they are not interacting with them. Essentially it bolsters immersion.

 

It's no different than going out on a Friday night to a dinner and movie with a significant other or a buddy.

 

And how will allowing for "freeform" travel accommodate the immersion of having worlds feel alive, if everyone can just immediately fly off into deep space without ever needing to interact with another player? If everyone can just have their own planet without any real effort, there won't be any of that immersion.

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And how will allowing for "freeform" travel accommodate the immersion of having worlds feel alive, if everyone can just immediately fly off into deep space without ever needing to interact with another player? If everyone can just have their own planet without any real effort, there won't be any of that immersion.

I don't think that will be possible. The fuel system will force players to linger around trading areas to refuel. You could stay in a planet though, go Ol' McDonald and go build a shack in the middle of nowhere and role-play the crazy person yelling "GET OFF MY LAWN" to passerbies. :P

 

I mean, it's a sandbox game... people can do that O_o

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I don't think that will be possible. The fuel system will force players to linger around trading areas to refuel. You could stay in a planet though, go Ol' McDonald and go build a shack in the middle of nowhere and role-play the crazy person yelling "GET OFF MY LAWN" to passerbies. :P

 

I mean, it's a sandbox game... people can do that O_o

 

 

Of course it won't be possible if they stick to the game plan they've told us about :-)

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The fuel system will force players to linger around trading areas to refuel.

I mean.. that makes sense though right?

 

It's not like people will be be stuck in the same place forever. There are going to be the resources necessary to refuel throughout space. So yeah, you'll need to get out there mine it, refine it, and refuel your ship. You'l probably have to return to populated space every once and a while if your an explorer but that's realistic and leads to good RP. If everybody is off doing their own thing, player interaction won't come naturally

 

The devs have stated multiple times that for every pressure (i.e. the benefits of player expansion), there will be a counter pressure (access to fuel, communications, markets, etc.). 

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Of course it won't be possible if they stick to the game plan they've told us about :-)

Unless we marginalise on the niche market of players needing fuel on the go, which will lead to the creation of moving space gas stations. Mine some ice from an asteroid, turn it into fusion cell or whatnot. Voila, MONEY.

 

 

I mean.. that makes sense though right?

 

It's not like people will be be stuck in the same place forever. There are going to be the resources necessary to refuel throughout space. So yeah, you'll need to get out there mine it, refine it, and refuel your ship. You'l probably have to return to populated space every once and a while if your an explorer but that's realistic and leads to good RP. If everybody is off doing their own thing, player interaction won't come naturally

 

The devs have stated multiple times that for every pressure (i.e. the benefits of player expansion), there will be a counter pressure (access to fuel, communications, markets, etc.). 

 

Depends good sir. If the fuel is Fusion cells, then you can make it on the go if you have some sort of processing unit and manufacturing module to do so, which I consider highly unlikely that your travelling ship will be able to support that as well, as the darn module should be large, as it should be placed in space stations and spaceports. So yeah, an expedition should be COSTLY, involving logistics, not herp-a-derp, let's go find a planet of our own.

 

Where the probes come in. The probes will INVESTIGATE a system to find if there's a planet you want to go to. It's counter-climactic if you go out and travel for a wekk only to find Mustafar instead of Endor (or in my case, Degobah.)

 

So cheers for probes :D They essentially are the "skill training" wait-time, but for travel time. You send the probe and go out there and mine for your next probe if the one you sent came back with an image of Jar Jar on planet.

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@Cornflakes

 

Your jumpgate idea sounds like a really nice recipe for a lot of confused (and stranded!) new players. Not that I think that's a bad thing.

 

But really, why the hate on "freeform" easy travel?

 

My concern is for the solo players and small groups. These players will likely not have the resources to own their own Stargate network, which means their very ability to even access more than 99.99% of this game would be entirely at the whim of large wealthy player organizations. These large groups will be the ones setting the tolls and the tags and the hoops that every other player would be forced to jump through if they want to see more than the starter system.

 

That does not sound like fun to me.

Travel is already going to be in the hands of the wealthy unless you are willing to wait weeks or months to get somewhere outside your system.

And the slow FTL is likely also more on the large and expensive end of the spectrum.

 

And for stranded and confused players: RTFM and a popup with "theres no return gate where you are jumping to, you may not be able to get back. Jump yes/no?"

(Along with other info, maybe jumps without an arrival gate damage ships?)

 

And freeform flight in general is crap for strategic movement.

Because it removes any semblance of choke points, making strategic fights mostly jump in - fire your torpedoes against your chosen strategic target - nope out again when any viable defenders come in range.

To use the words of someone who had the same discussion with a long time ago: "the battle of thermopylae would not even be a footnote in history if the persians could have taken a million ways around the spartans"

Its a balancing nightmare.

Theres a reason why eve online has the cyno - jumpdrive shema ;)

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@Cornflakes


Your idea also creates a prosperous business plan of players acting as cabbies. I mean, a ticket is more affordable than an entire ship. Plus, with my suggestion for an inspection trading system being in check, you can assure your passengers are not sociopaths who wanna hijack your ride. It's all coming together, see? :P

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I think people are seeing this situation entirely backwards. Stargates wouldn't be used to separate from the emergent gameplay, but rather connect to it. Hopefully there will be multiple settlements scattered relatively close to Alioth in an interstellar sense. Another group of settlement hundreds of LY away would not very easily be able to interact with the first. But with stargates, that limitation is removed.

 

And in the case of the wealthy or powerful organizations hoarding the technology, well then that would be their right, seeing as how they investing the time and resources for such extremely advanced technology. If such an organization wouldn't allow other players to use the stargates, those players would be no worse off than before there were any stargates.

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I think people are seeing this situation entirely backwards. Stargates wouldn't be used to separate from the emergent gameplay, but rather connect to it. Hopefully there will be multiple settlements scattered relatively close to Alioth in an interstellar sense. Another group of settlement hundreds of LY away would not very easily be able to interact with the first. But with stargates, that limitation is removed.

 

And in the case of the wealthy or powerful organizations hoarding the technology, well then that would be their right, seeing as how they investing the time and resources for such extremely advanced technology. If such an organization wouldn't allow other players to use the stargates, those players would be no worse off than before there were any stargates.

Sir, I see no more emergent gameplay than setting a minefield on a stargate that is your empire's flank. :P

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Sir, I see no more emergent gameplay than setting a minefield on a stargate that is your empire's flank. :P

 

It's a valid strategy. If you can reach it, that is. In fact, it just adds another layer of gameplay, which is great. Better not let that Dominion fleet through.

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It's a valid strategy. If you can reach it, that is. In fact, it just adds another layer of gameplay, which is great. Better not let that Dominion fleet through.

Given how many people are eager to unleash their sociopathy in a sandbox MMO, I guess that my suggestion for GUARD DUTY will be a serious subject, with dedicated players who volunteer to keep the borders safe. I know I will at least if I roll with a large Empire, given they pay at least.

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And how will allowing for "freeform" travel accommodate the immersion of having worlds feel alive, if everyone can just immediately fly off into deep space without ever needing to interact with another player? If everyone can just have their own planet without any real effort, there won't be any of that immersion.

The problem is not with freeform travel, but with fast travel. The style is not important. Population density of regions of a virtually unlimited game universe is dependent on what volume of space is accessible in a given time frame, how easy it is to detect the presence of other players, and the value and caring capacity of various pockets of space.

 

Edit: "freeform" travel doesn't have to be a solo experience. It can be a rich multiplayer experience, especially for long journeys. If there are survival, maintenance, discovery and other issues to deal with a long interstellar journey could be an awesome multiplayer experience.

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I personally would have no issue crusingfor ten minutes towards a stargate to jump to another system. It's good thing, you get to admire the game's world. 

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This is supposed to be a sandbox game, right? ...I will never understand people who think there is only one correct way to play in a sandbox. :P

 

Small gang and solo players are the backbone of the economy in games like this. Large player orgs will have entire internal divisions devoted to logistics, and will have a reduced need for the wider marketplace. They'll have their own miners and builders. Small groups and solo players are going to be mostly reliant on the wider markets for almost everything they do. They will most likely be the largest force driving the creation of the very robust economy that the Devs say they want to see.

 

These are also transitory states that most players will find themselves in at some point in their time in this game. Even players that prefer to be in large groups will likely find themselves flying solo at some point. What if a player gets booted from their group? Or finds that the group has taken on a toxic culture? What about alts? What if someone just wants to climb a mountain while taking screen shots and posting them to Reddit? What if a group of IRL friends just want to play a game together? ...I could go on.

 

There are as many reasons for small groups and solo players as there are small groups and solo players, and all of those reasons are valid.

 

My concern is that a mechanic that places access to the wider game world into the hands of huge wealthy player groups is a mechanic that is ripe for exploit. I don't think that groups like that, in games like this, shouldn't be handed any more power than they already have.

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@Cavadus

 

 

Class A move, call me authoritarian for pointing out your bullshit.

 

No, I called you authoritarian because you explicitly dictated that I stop posting. 

 

 

...don't ask for RP things...

 

Also, it's apparently never dawned on you that the game can have any FTL speed the devs decide, even ones as fast as warp gate travel!

 

The horror!

 

I personally don't like warp gates.  They create a player bottle neck in an around and them.  It's all fine and dandy in the earlier systems but unless they make all areas surrounding warpgates non-PvP zones then you can count griefers to camp gates just like people do in nullsec in EVE.

 

I also don't like warpgates because they make a point in space a necessity for travel.  I'd rather just hop in a ship and go where I please without being restricted and funneled.  For me it's about freedom of movement; warpgates are contrary to that by definition because I am forced to go to a specific point and then I am forced to be spit out at a specific point.

 

Now here's an amazing concept that I hope you learn some day.  You like warpgates and want to see them included.  Neat.  That's a perfectly valid opinion and I don't even think you're stupid for being a proponent of it.  It's just not what I personally enjoy.

 

See how easy it is to not be a turd? 

 

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No, I called you authoritarian because you explicitly dictated that I stop posting. 

 

 

Also, it's apparently never dawned on you that the game can have any FTL speed the devs decide, even ones as fast as warp gate travel!

 

The horror!

 

I personally don't like warp gates.  They create a player bottle neck in an around and them.  It's all fine and dandy in the earlier systems but unless they make all areas surrounding warpgates non-PvP zones then you can count griefers to camp gates just like people do in nullsec in EVE.

 

I also don't like warpgates because they make a point in space a necessity for travel.  I'd rather just hop in a ship and go where I please without being restricted and funneled.  For me it's about freedom of movement; warpgates are contrary to that by definition because I am forced to go to a specific point and then I am forced to be spit out at a specific point.

 

Now here's an amazing concept that I hope you learn some day.  You like warpgates and want to see them included.  Neat.  That's a perfectly valid opinion and I don't even think you're stupid for being a proponent of it.  It's just not what I personally enjoy.

 

See how easy it is to not be a turd? 

 

Well, Star Wars and Star Trek are not realistic representations of physics when it comes to FTL. You can't access warp-speed levels without a weakened area of gravity around a star. You may not like it, I can accept that, but you also have to understand both the practicality of such an implementation as "warpgates" or, more accurately, "Jump Points" , due to the nature of the server's side on handling "teleportation", ease of use and understanding and some physics validating the tuning towards it. 

 

Plus, Jump Points will make or break the economy for an empire's trading routes. If one empire goes and sets pirate runs on an empire's routes, they can make foreign traders to that empire NOT wanting to be ganked, therefore avoiding that area.

 

 

I said that before, this is not EVE 2.0. , players should be the ones dictating the Security Level of an area. Make Carebear Policemen find honor in protecting routes (let's face it, the Carebear Police are griefers with White Knight syndrome xD ) , and having Jump Points will enable such a gameplay happening.

 

 

It's like real-life sir. If you want to get somewhere fast, there's only one way good sir, the Interstate. Or in the game's case, the Intergalactic 204? O_o

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My concern is that a mechanic that places access to the wider game world into the hands of huge wealthy player groups is a mechanic that is ripe for exploit. I don't think that groups like that, in games like this, shouldn't be handed any more power than they already have.

 

As I have stated previously,

 

And in the case of the wealthy or powerful organizations hoarding the technology, well then that would be their right, seeing as how they investing the time and resources for such extremely advanced technology. If such an organization wouldn't allow other players to use the stargates, those players would be no worse off than before there were any stargates.

 

If stargates were to become necessary for everyone to use then it would be unfair for a wealthy organization to hoard them. But they should not be necessary, rather, only an extreme convenience. ie aside from the initial exploration, traveling takes 5 seconds vs 5 hours. Would have been convenient to save 5 hours, but that's all it is, a convenience.

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Stuff.

 

Dude, it's a video game.

 

Current theoretical astrophysics should not dictate game mechanics.  

 

You should familiarize yourself with the Alcubierre drive.

 

If I wanted to get somewhere fast I wouldn't use an interstate; I'd probably fly.  See what I did there?

 

Anyways, last word is yours.

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Dude, it's a video game.

 

Current theoretical astrophysics should not dictate game mechanics.  

 

You should familiarize yourself with the Alcubierre drive.

 

If I wanted to get somewhere fast I wouldn't use an interstate; I'd probably fly.  See what I did there?

 

Anyways, last word is yours.

You missed the point on the metaphor Drax the Destroyer.

 

You should in fact read about Alcubierre drive technology you mentioned. We got a spot in our star system that could allow for an Alcubierre drive to function which NASA, that contracted for the RnD of the drive detected FOR the RnD team.

 

 

You seem to have the concept of "stirring" in warp. Guess what, you can't. In fact, look up how the word "WARP" came to be and its nautical terminology. Gene Roddenberry, creator of Star Trek that created the concept of "Warp-Speed" was an avid lover of sailing.

 

 

You can't stirr in Warp mate. You also can't have infinite fuel, thus, no infinite warp. You can't simply zoom from Earth to Vega system, but you CAN warp to Alpha Centauri (or not, because it's a binary system, with a very strange gravity spots for warp). 

 

 

Like it or not, jump-gates will exist, because maximum range of warp will exist due to fuel, because if not,

 

Clan Keemstar lead by xXx_KeenstarFan2009_xXx will warp from their base to your city, wreck your stuff up and then laugh as you QQ on the forums about "WHY ARE THERE ARE NO JUMPGATES NOVAQUARK?!"

 

 

And as I have mentioned prior in a reply you quoted : 

 

 

...don't ask for RP things...

 

 

Peace.

 

 

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Here is my vision of how can interstellar travel work:

There are 3 ways of warp travel - ship mounted warp drive, close range warp gates, and long range warp gates.

 

First and foremost, there will be ship warp drive. It will be close range and consumes fuel, that costs nontrivial amount of resources. Systems that can be reached such way without esoteric ship designs that cost lots of money we will call "Close Frontier". Because of fuel costs, any journey into close frontier will be an investment, and the more stuff you take with you, the more costly it will be. Such systems will be prime candidate for exploration - looking for relics, scouting for rare resources, and later setting up mining outposts. The density and size of systems will make it so possibility of encountering other player in close frontier is very small, unless they specifically hunt you. Maybe they tracked your jump, or maybe they set up listener satelite in this frontier that alerted them to someones presence in system.

 

Secondly, there are close range warp gates. They do not have any per-jump cost, but are expensive, take sizable time to build, and have maintenance cost. Firstly, they will be built on mining stations, that will make deliviring ore to the market a lot cheaper than freighters with jump drive. Important thing though is, once they are setup and maintenace is acounted ofr, their travel is free. That will mean that system is no longer frontier, players can access it freely, build and develop it into proper colony. But important thing is, it is also another point from where expeditions can be mounted into close frontier. This means that for people that have access to this gate, close frontier is bigger in size. This is the way frontier will grow and keep exploration fresh. Another possibilty is that rich mineral deposits would run out with heavy excavation, which means establisment of new mining is lucrative buisness.

 

And lastly, there are long range warp gates. They are enormous, in size, costs, and build time. Only biggest organisations can afford to build them, and even for them it would define gameplay for months. More realistic possibility I see is them being crowdfounded, with many players investing their money for exclusive access rights. But what is the cake? The catch is, resources don't have uniform distribution in the universe. Some rare metal can be very useful in ship building, but very rare in currently colonised regions, and makes up big part of ship costs. On the other hand, it is way more common in another region, far away. Such region can be scouted with probes, but it takes time and investment. After that, specific gate-candidate systems are scouted more closely with probes. After that, very large and costly gate and seed-probe are constructed and sent. Seed probe is enormous, and will take big time to reach the system, maybe month. Its arival will probably make universe-wide news. And it will open completely new region for explotation, start mining rush for previously scarce resources, probably war for control of the infrastructure, and forever change market and prices.

 

One important thing though, I would want actual travel, regardless of costs or distance, to be instantaneous. There may be time involved in traveling between gates, but actual gates are instant. I think making travel take real-time full of nothing is extremely unwise. While player is sitting and waiting a day(even if not in-game) to reach another sector, he is not playing the game. Penalising players FOR playing the game BY taking away the game is very stupid IMO. With that said, adding symbolical time-contraint, say 10 minutes to long-range gates, can be a good immersive thing, that highlights their weight and importance.

 

Another thing, I completely unafraid of large corporations monopolising gates. Firstly, it is exact example of emergant gameplay, the way society develops and manages themselves. Secondly, even in EVE there is not single group that dominates the entire game (not anymore), and if big corporation tries to take control here, pushback from the rest will be stronger and win.

 

Cheers!

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Well, Star Wars and Star Trek are not realistic representations of physics when it comes to FTL. You can't access warp-speed levels without a weakened area of gravity around a star. You may not like it, I can accept that, but you also have to understand both the practicality of such an implementation as "warpgates" or, more accurately, "Jump Points" , due to the nature of the server's side on handling "teleportation", ease of use and understanding and some physics validating the tuning towards it.

 

I'd like to see some source on that, because i spent a lot of time rading about different warp drive metrics and none of them depend on any specific environmental conditions to be used.

Beyond the common "you cant control a warp drive from the inside".

 

heck how would a warp drive work at all as drive when it only works at specific points?

You have to leave those points when you want to get any use out of the drive.

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