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Am I alone in thinking that Stargate Probes are a bad idea?

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Can someone please define "freeform" travel? Are you talking about how capital ships move between solar systems in Eve? I.e instantaneous travel without the use of stargates?

not necessarily instantaneous, but yes.

 

like a star trek warp drive for example.

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I'd like to see some source on that, because i spent a lot of time rading about different warp drive metrics and none of them depend on any specific environmental conditions to be used.

Beyond the common "you cant control a warp drive from the inside".

 

heck how would a warp drive work at all as drive when it only works at specific points?

You have to leave those points when you want to get any use out of the drive.

Those Jump Points the way i realise it are the "direct end of the line" between two systesm, where the gravity of the two stars pulling on one another is more balanced. Technically you can engage an Alcubierre drive wherever you want, but you know, fuel efficiency and safety.

 

Warp works by shortening space in front of you and expanding space behind you. It's essentially riding a cable car from one system to the other , while always having a "descending" boost towards a star. Don't ask how "spending energy to climb higher works" and the sources to that. 

 

Which is why binary systems are also an issue when it comes to Warping. Two stars means more math and gravitational spots that can be messed up due to the nature of those systems.

 

Plus, the reason you can't simply warp anywhere in the real world, is the fact you EXPAND THE UNIVERSE BEHIND YOU. 

 

The classic shot of the Enterprise going to warp while being near Earth, literally means the Earth was blown to smithereens from the dark energy distorting space, dark energy being the stuff that pushes galaxies and stars apart, an allegorical "negative gravity" if you will. Which circles back to the part of the jump points. 

 

A good example would be why astronauts don't take off from ANYWHERE on planet Earth but select spots, like Cape Canaveral  (spoiler alert, the 9.8 m/s^2 gravity of earth is an approximation, not an absolute, also check the Olympics place that most world records have been broken when it comes to pole vaulting and other jumpy games, you'll get the idea). The same reason applies to ships going to warp. You need that sweet spot to pull it off efficiently, less you get stranded in space by overshooting a system. Jump gates are the logical byproduct of that and as I said, it's why ROADS exist. Safety and ease of travel.

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Can someone please define "freeform" travel? Are you talking about how capital ships move between solar systems in Eve? I.e instantaneous travel without the use of stargates?

Let me translate sir in my perspective of such individuals that advocate on freeform.

 

 

"I am xXx_KeemstarFan2009_xXx and I want to be a douche and go wherever I want in a sandbox game and grief where I damn please, whenever I damn please. I don't care if NQ plans for Dual to be an empires' metagame, with borders, I WANT NO BORDERS. I want to be able to ignore the designated gameplay mechanics and go invade with my army of douche friends the capital city of an Empire and grief people. Why are you people against my desire to be a sociopath?!"

 

I am a cynic enough to see past the arguements of "I want to be freeeee like Willy the Killer-Whale".

 

I hope this explanation satisfies you good sir :P

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Those Jump Points the way i realise it are the "direct end of the line" between two systesm, where the gravity of the two stars pulling on one another is more balanced. Technically you can engage an Alcubierre drive wherever you want, but you know, fuel efficiency and safety.

 

Warp works by shortening space in front of you and expanding space behind you. It's essentially riding a cable car from one system to the other , while always having a "descending" boost towards a star. Don't ask how "spending energy to climb higher works" and the sources to that. 

 

Which is why binary systems are also an issue when it comes to Warping. Two stars means more math and gravitational spots that can be messed up due to the nature of those systems.

 

Plus, the reason you can't simply warp anywhere in the real world, is the fact you EXPAND THE UNIVERSE BEHIND YOU. 

 

The classic shot of the Enterprise going to warp while being near Earth, literally means the Earth was blown to smithereens from the dark energy distorting space, dark energy being the stuff that pushes galaxies and stars apart, an allegorical "negative gravity" if you will. Which circles back to the part of the jump points. 

 

A good example would be why astronauts don't take off from ANYWHERE on planet Earth but select spots, like Cape Canaveral  (spoiler alert, the 9.8 m/s^2 gravity of earth is an approximation, not an absolute, also check the Olympics place that most world records have been broken when it comes to pole vaulting and other jumpy games, you'll get the idea). The same reason applies to ships going to warp. You need that sweet spot to pull it off efficiently, less you get stranded in space by overshooting a system. Jump gates are the logical byproduct of that and as I said, it's why ROADS exist. Safety and ease of travel.

 

you still didnt provide any sources.

 

and also no reason why it would be safe to leave your precious spots as well.

you dont compress the whole distance to a point, your drive bubble still has to move the distance between the stars and thus go outside the safe spots.

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not necessarily instantaneous, but yes.

like a star trek warp drive for example.

Well Star Trek warp drives are completely different to what I was describing.

 

Do you mean any kind of travel between solar systems that does not require stargates?

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you still didnt provide any sources.

 

and also no reason why it would be safe to leave your precious spots as well.

you dont compress the whole distance to a point, your drive bubble still has to move the distance between the stars and thus go outside the safe spots.

You missed the point of the Cable Car metaphor -_-

 

http://www.hawking.org.uk/space-and-time-warps.html

 

Won't even bother to outline quotes. I'll let you have the privilege of reading it.

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Well Star Trek warp drives are completely different to what I was describing.

 

Do you mean any kind of travel between solar systems that does not require stargates?

 

Yes. In a nutshell.

 

I don't think travel between the stars should be an easy thing to do, but I do think it should be a realistic option. I really don't like the idea of telling people that they have to use player-made gates or their travel time will be measured in months.

 

That doesn't really sound like a choice to me. More like a threat of punishment from the Devs for not bending the knee to some large player group.

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Yes. In a nutshell.

 

I don't think travel between the stars should be an easy thing to do, but I do think it should be a realistic option. I really don't like the idea of telling people that they have to use player-made gates or their travel time will be measured in months.

 

That doesn't really sound like a choice to me. More like a threat of punishment from the Devs for not bending the knee to some large player group.

The point is there need to be borders for empires. If you can move over borders without ANY defense in your way you'll see night-raids and greifing going insane. No high security areas for merchants ANYWHERE. I hope you see the need for stargates.

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Well Star Trek warp drives are completely different to what I was describing.

 

Do you mean any kind of travel between solar systems that does not require stargates?

 

You asked what freeform travel is, i gave you an answer.

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The point is there need to be borders for empires. If you can move over borders without ANY defense in your way you'll see night-raids and greifing going insane. No high security areas for merchants ANYWHERE. I hope you see the need for stargates.

 

Guns make for great borders. Add some LUA scripting and viola, safety. If you want to be even safer, add even more guns!  :lol:

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There is no single mention of warp drives at all, even less of them needing your mythical weak points to work.

There's no warping space, it's space-time. Read, between, the lines. I give up. -_- This thread got way off topic.

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Yes. In a nutshell.

 

I don't think travel between the stars should be an easy thing to do, but I do think it should be a realistic option. I really don't like the idea of telling people that they have to use player-made gates or their travel time will be measured in months.

 

That doesn't really sound like a choice to me. More like a threat of punishment from the Devs for not bending the knee to some large player group.

I really don't see how it can work with travel costs that has been implied. From what I heard, gates are extremely expensive. If normal free-travel is affordable, there will be no reason to invest in gate. So free-travel has to be at least a little frustrating. And big groups will maybe construct gates to counteract it. But they for sure won't open it to public in that case, because there already is 'free' public option.

 

On the other hand, if gates ARE needed, extreme community preassure will be put on groups to open them. No group is strong enough to stand against half a server. Can you provide examples of player groups monopolising esentials in mmo's? Closest to evil player empire I can think of is CFC/Imperium controlling lucrative Null space in EVE, and renting it to small corporations. Thing is, this space was in no way esential, many small corps live in less rich null space. Even so, hatred for this empire has grown so large that half of Null-sec alliances formed coalition do destroy them, with many independents droping in. As of right now, Imperium is still alive, but half as large player-wise, and controls no territory.

 

Funiest bit about this story? CFC itself came into power after destroying (not just defeating) previous mega-alliance, BoB, that was said to be unbeatable. Since then CFC had its ups and downs, and only a year ago were also 'unbeatable'.

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Guns make for great borders. Add some LUA scripting and viola, safety. If you want to be even safer, add even more guns!  :lol:

Where will those "guns" be? Entire system? Or the stargates? Cause the latter is my point exactly good sir.

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There's no warping space, it's space-time. Read, between, the lines. I give up. -_- This thread got way off topic.

"Read between the lines" is no correct answer to "your stephen hawking text doesnt answer my question" :P

 

And warping space or warping space-time is semantics, nothing else.

 

And the paper still doesnt answer why drives would need weak points, heck, not even what they are :P

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That's not really an answer.

You asked "what is freeform travel? Is it like in eve where they move from star to star without jumpgates"

I answer: "roughly, but you may not move instantly between stars"

 

Where is that not an answer?

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Dude, it's a video game.

 

Current theoretical astrophysics should not dictate game mechanics. 

^ this

 

The point is there need to be borders for empires. If you can move over borders without ANY defense in your way you'll see night-raids and greifing going insane. No high security areas for merchants ANYWHERE. I hope you see the need for stargates.

Perhaps, but trying to eliminate freeform travel by justifying it with real scientific claims isn't the way to do it. And I don't see very good scientific claims either. No reason an Alcubierre drive has to leave from a certain place, no reason that expanded space behind you would decimate a planet. So much of it is theoretical anyway.

 

Elminating free-form travel would also impinge on the free nature of a sandbox game. Imagine if you couldn't leave a village's gravel path in MC. It's far too limiting.

 

 

Guns make for great borders. Add some LUA scripting and viola, safety. If you want to be even safer, add even more guns!  :lol:

^ this and sensor nets maybe patrols too. Borders shouldn't be absolutely impossible to cross, and only as strong as the force that the organization which established them can bring to bear.

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^ this

 

Perhaps, but trying to eliminate freeform travel by justifying it with real scientific claims isn't the way to do it. And I don't see very good scientific claims either. No reason an Alcubierre drive has to leave from a certain place, no reason that expanded space behind you would decimate a planet. So much of it is theoretical anyway.

 

Elminating free-form travel would also impinge on the free nature of a sandbox game. Imagine if you couldn't leave a village's gravel path in MC. It's far too limiting.

 

 

^ this and sensor nets maybe patrols too. Borders shouldn't be absolutely impossible to cross, and only as strong as the force that the organization which established them can bring to bear.

So, what you want, is Free-For-All griefing sessions. No point in organisations then. Why bother, it's not like organised territories could do crap against xXx_Bilieber_xXx when he comes over and blows your stuff up. Why even bother with spaceships and PvP? Let's add safezones everywhere in the game and PvP Tagging (which by the number of people here being carebears would sound "awesome", making this game Landmark 2.0 ).

 

You know what, we overthink this. The devs will probably say that warp doesn't work in their game's tech and the stargates are quantum field generators that relay you from one place to another.

 

Wait, I hear you say : "But but but, I WANT TO FREEFORM TRAVEL AND PK NOOBZ0RZZZZ!"

 

To which I must reply with "get dunked, hide in your safezones and never come out if you want to simply play Legos in Space."

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Elminating free-form travel would also impinge on the free nature of a sandbox game. Imagine if you couldn't leave a village's gravel path in MC. It's far too limiting.

 

I think nobody is suggesting forcing the players onto fixed paths only.

But interstellar/strategic movement needs limitations for good gameplay.

 

Choke points make stories and cause people to think outside the box.

When they have to find alternative routes, make treaties, sabotage blockades etc

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I think nobody is suggesting forcing the players onto fixed paths only.

But interstellar/strategic movement needs limitations for good gameplay.

 

Choke points make stories and cause people to think outside the box.

When they have to find alternative routes, make treaties, sabotage blockades etc

You eloquent landlobber.

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Guns make for great borders. Add some LUA scripting and viola, safety. If you want to be even safer, add even more guns!  :lol:

^ this and sensor nets maybe patrols too. Borders shouldn't be absolutely impossible to cross, and only as strong as the force that the organization which established them can bring to bear.

 

 

I think nobody is suggesting forcing the players onto fixed paths only.

But interstellar/strategic movement needs limitations for good gameplay.

 

Choke points make stories and cause people to think outside the box.

When they have to find alternative routes, make treaties, sabotage blockades etc

 

I think this could be implemented naturally by a significant amount of time required to cross interstellar distances via FTL.

 

For example: We can't use their stargate and we don't have one in their system. Bringing a strike force for a 10 hour journey might not be possible all at once. But a strike force could make it given the proper infrastructure support, which would take time and resources to plan and carry out.

 

Then there's the issue of how the enemy's borders are protected. We would also have to plan around those defenses to get behind the borders. Perhaps their borders are too well defended. Perhaps there's a weak spot. It depends on how the enemy has decided to protect its borders.

 

With a natural balance like this, everyone is happy. I can go where I want and organizations can protect their borders with varying degrees of success.

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I think this could be implemented naturally by a significant amount of time required to cross interstellar distances via FTL.

 

Cause nothing says "yey, I play a video game" like looking at a looping screensaver as you travel in FTL.

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