Target / Damage Combat and Fixed Weapons

[Ripper]

"Tab targeting" or "target/damage" model of combat has been confirmed by JC Baillie in this interview. (between 6:00 and 7:30)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1WMwIDWFKI

 

 

I'd like to point out the following observation to the devs, and get their feedback.

 

The above method of combat is perfectly fine for larger ships with turrets, but isn't viable as fighter combat.

 

Players will want to have fixed weapons, and dogfight other players.

 

 

How can this be achieved with the "target/damage" model?

 

I've previously, suggested an invisible target lock on the players hud, which acts like a short term missile lock.  It essentially only allows the weapons to fire when the target is directly in front of the player.  However, I've discovered a couple of possible ways to exploit this.

 

My new suggestion for the DEVS:

 

Targeting Cones for Weapons.

 

It doesn't matter whether the weapon is fixed or a turret.  The weapon should have a sensor that "Targets" the enemy ship at the center of the cone.  It would perform a short term  "Target" (milliseconds to seconds), that would allow damage to be applied.

 

How does this effect combat?

 

Turrets won't be able to fire through the players ship.  All weapons are limited to their cones of fire.  Fixed weapons could be mounted forward or broadside.  They would only hit targets that are in their field of fire.

 

 

The above solutions provides for simulated FPS/SIM combat, without having the overhead of hitscanning on the server side.

 

This would need to be done on the "mesh element", so it needs to be coded by the devs.

[vylqun]

sounds like a workable suggestion, and i too would definitely like something else than tab&attack for small scale combatants

[KlatuSatori]

This is pretty much the same as my suggestion https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/621-firing-arcs/#entry5331

[Ripper]

They look the same. Firing arc / targeting cone. This post is about how to IMPLEMENT the solution.

 

Instead of "tab targeting" where the player designates the enemy with a mouse or keystroke, my post is about an AUTOMATIC targeting of whats directly in front of the weapon.

[KlatuSatori]

Yeah that's okay. I think any solution needs to take two things into consideration. There needs to be some kind of aiming involved, and there needs to be some chance of friendly fire. I'd support any solution that allows for these two elements.

[The_War_Doctor]

well I may be wrong but there will be ground combat as well and im assuming ground combat wont be tab targeting. so for dogfights they could use the same system as the ground combat. maybe im no game designer

[Cornflakes]

Yeah that's okay. I think any solution needs to take two things into consideration. There needs to be some kind of aiming involved, and there needs to be some chance of friendly fire. I'd support any solution that allows for these two elements.

well, with weapons having limited firing arcs targetting is to turn your ship the right way that your weapons work as good as possible

[Tnecniw]

I would be fine with tabtargeting for larger ships as long as I can wear a captain hat, with a fake pipe and shout 

"FIRE ALL WEAPONS" as I blast my  lasers in broadside combat...

[Tnecniw]

well, with weapons having limited firing arcs targetting is to turn your ship the right way that your weapons work as good as possible

Agreed... it would be awesome if we had some sort of skill element involved.

[The_War_Doctor]

Agreed... it would be awesome if we had some sort of skill element involved.

I think NQ said that the chance of hitting and damage and such is based on some research

[Tnecniw]

I think NQ said that the chance of hitting and damage and such is based on some research

So it is the EvE thing again? Where you basicly compare dicks?

[The_War_Doctor]

So it is the EvE thing again? Where you basicly compare dicks?

never played eve. when i came across it didnt have the time to commit to such a game. but if thats how it is then yeah. kind of disappointing but im hoping that if there is standard fps combat for on the ground then they can translate that to dogfighting. maybe only "turrents" will work in that fashion

[Tnecniw]

never played eve. when i came across it didnt have the time to commit to such a game. but if thats how it is then yeah. kind of disappointing but im hoping that if there is standard fps combat for on the ground then they can translate that to dogfighting. maybe only "turrents" will work in that fashion

Well, honestly what I have seen of the game it seems to be more focused on building than fighting.

[ODINxKANE]

They look the same. Firing arc / targeting cone. This post is about how to IMPLEMENT the solution.

 

Instead of "tab targeting" where the player designates the enemy with a mouse or keystroke, my post is about an AUTOMATIC targeting of whats directly in front of the weapon.

I absolutely agree with both of those conditions. In addition, seeing as ships will be built by players, i think that to build a weapon or turret, a player needs to place restrictions on it such as traversing a turret to make sure that it doesnt hose your own ship and of course an error doing this would result in VERY friendly fire lol. I also think that fixed weapons on small intercepter/ fighter craft should be able to aim with an arc say +or - 3 degrees from the centerline of the weapon. This would allow non turreted weapon systems to be able to target craft basically in a finite cone but still manageble for a slight aim assist.  This would still allow for friendly fire because your still squeezing a trigger and if you squeez it at the wrong time bad things happen.

[Commander_Kapow]

"Tab targeting" or "target/damage" model of combat has been confirmed by JC Baillie in this interview. (between 6:00 and 7:30)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1WMwIDWFKI

 

 

I'd like to point out the following observation to the devs, and get their feedback.

 

The above method of combat is perfectly fine for larger ships with turrets, but isn't viable as fighter combat.

 

Players will want to have fixed weapons, and dogfight other players.

 

 

How can this be achieved with the "target/damage" model?

 

I've previously, suggested an invisible target lock on the players hud, which acts like a short term missile lock.  It essentially only allows the weapons to fire when the target is directly in front of the player.  However, I've discovered a couple of possible ways to exploit this.

 

My new suggestion for the DEVS:

 

Targeting Cones for Weapons.

 

It doesn't matter whether the weapon is fixed or a turret.  The weapon should have a sensor that "Targets" the enemy ship at the center of the cone.  It would perform a short term  "Target" (milliseconds to seconds), that would allow damage to be applied.

 

How does this effect combat?

 

Turrets won't be able to fire through the players ship.  All weapons are limited to their cones of fire.  Fixed weapons could be mounted forward or broadside.  They would only hit targets that are in their field of fire.

 

 

The above solutions provides for simulated FPS/SIM combat, without having the overhead of hitscanning on the server side.

 

This would need to be done on the "mesh element", so it needs to be coded by the devs.

+1 

 

Honestly at this point the only thing stopping me to get completely 100% behind this game is the threat of Tab targeting. As a person who loves sims I just can't get behind such basic MMO combat style based on stats and spread sheets rather then skill...

[DoubleBotch]

I also have to say that I would like skill of the players to be the determining factor in combat. I've played EVE and it does become disheartening to feel that you've flown equally as well as the other pilot only to be defeated due to their character having existed long enough to train skills higher than yours. 

I'm not sure where that leaves us concerning large ships with AI controlled weaponry. I think a large part of the success of such a ship will ultimately rest with it's designer. The pilot must learn to wield the weapon but there's a big difference between wielding a butter knife and a longsword no matter how skilled you are. 

[Anaximander]

Given the LUA scripts of the game, I expect a combat system that will be similar to the Lost Fleet book series. Essentially jousting in space. 


You charge at your oppoment, and try to throw off their aim by slowing down or juking their shots. The turrets could be set to fire on a tag-command and have broasider combat as two ships pass on one another.

Dogfighting should be left to jets, not freaking battleships or battlecruisers. Battleships are literally knigts and battlecruisers are chain-mail wearing guys on horseback. What are jet-fighters in such a scale? Footsoldiers. 


Peace.

[this3ndup]

While I'd agree there needs to be a degree of skill involved, it's also reasonable to assume that advanced energy weapons would use an equally advanced targeting systems allowing users to track targets, calculate targeting solutions in real time, and avoid friendly fire.  We're also talking about laser weapons, which travel too fast to incorporate pilot skill in the way some are suggesting.  Assuming they're modeled with a modicum of realism, there will be no ballistics involved, and you won't need to lead targets.  These weapons would almost have to be partially or fully automated to be truly effective.  The cold, hard truth is that even today skill is increasingly less of a factor in warfare than technology, and weapon deployment is an increasingly push-button affair.  So tab-targeting makes sense on some level as a realistic representation of advanced warfare.

 

Something like what Ripper suggests strikes me as a reasonable compromise; skill would be required in bringing weapons to bear and trying to avoid other players' firing solutions, which is fairly analogous to contemporary dogfighting anyway.  Once within an enemy's sights, however, the technology would take over.  Hardly anything is strictly point and shoot anymore, and this would be even more true in the far future.

 

That being said, the element of player skill levels in determining the damage applied and/or the effectiveness of the targeting itself seems problematic to me.  I would rather see the hits based on the quality of the weapon and the components used in the ship as opposed the skill level of the pilot.  A higher level targeting computer--perhaps one built by a player with a higher level building skill--could result in a higher hit percentage, for example.  This would further encourage building-related specializations while removing artificial handicaps on player skill in combat.  Theoretically, a highly skilled new player with a top-tier ship could compete effectively with veterans, but doing so would be expensive for a solo player.

 

I would like to see potential damage and hit percentage seperated, with one based on the weapon quality, and the other based on the targeting computer quality.  Player skill would come into play with repect to maneuvering those weapons into position, evading the enemy, and possibly manipulating defensive countermeasures (such as shields).  I feel this would be a reasonable compromise that would further stimulate various roles within the in-game economy (skilled building, rare resource mining, high-quality refining, etc.) to provide the highest quality components and satisfy pilots looking for a more traditional sim-like experience where skill still plays a significant role in dealing damage.

[Wardion2000]

This may come off as a strange idea but did anyone ever play Tabula Rasa?  It had a crosshair mechanic in the respect that whatever was in your crosshairs was what was SELECTED as the target.  A skill check is still being made every time you fire your guns checking if you hit or miss.  It keeps an action element in the game which is would be lacking otherwise.  This mechanic has been used in other games as well.  Neverwinter comes to mind immediately.  And if anyone is wondering whether or not you can have both.  The Secret World MMO has this as an option as well as a tab targeting system.  Ah, Tabula Rasa.....  How I miss thee.

 

 

(Just noticed Rippers other post on RITL)

Edited June 30, 2016 by Wardion2000