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Shynras

Regarding economy, currency and NPCs

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I think this game needs an active hand in the economy, run by the dev team. Someone who understands economics and monetary policy. Think Federal Reserve in the US economy. Discount rates, reserve requirements, buying/selling. Even if you don't agree with the Federal Reserve, it's an integral part of the US economy. 

 

Especially if people start forming 'banking' organizations. None of this works without a backend system to support it. It sounds great and looks good on paper, but if you can't  enforce liabilities owed from one another, it all falls apart. 

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The federal reserve bank, is not federal, there is no reserve, and its not a bank. It is run by a board of directors. There were banks running just fine long before they created it. No we dont need this.

 

I didn't claim the Federal Reserve is a bank. It was merely an analogy as to what tools that devs can/should implement as a means to control the economy. 

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If there is no game currency people will naturally tend to use whatever commodity has best value to weight ratio as the thing that they measure everything else against, that's what currency was for most of history, something everyone agreed was valuable.

 

The problem eve has with ISK inflation is that ISK is created when items are sold to an NPC and destroyed when things are brought. Its an open system and ISK is flowing in faster than out. WOW had the same thing but they mitigated by increasing repair costs and selling ever more ridiculous mounts. 

 

The real problem this game will have is resources being mined versus resources destroyed in combat, inflation or deflation will happen based on how much of one versus the other happens, you may also end up with a glut of one material or another. it will be really tricky to manage.

 

Nova quark should leave the players to decide how the economy will run and focus on adjusting the rate of mining versus using up of materials to control major inflation/deflation.

 

Crafting coins, from metals sounds the best especially if it gives some sort of advantage in terms of carrying it. If players then want to create their own paper or electronic currencies I would love to see how that plays out but personally I will be keeping a stash of gold bullion in my safe.

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If there is no game currency people will naturally tend to use whatever commodity has best value to weight ratio as the thing that they measure everything else against, that's what currency was for most of history, something everyone agreed was valuable.

 

The problem eve has with ISK inflation is that ISK is created when items are sold to an NPC and destroyed when things are brought. Its an open system and ISK is flowing in faster than out. WOW had the same thing but they mitigated by increasing repair costs and selling ever more ridiculous mounts. 

 

The real problem this game will have is resources being mined versus resources destroyed in combat, inflation or deflation will happen based on how much of one versus the other happens, you may also end up with a glut of one material or another. it will be really tricky to manage.

 

Nova quark should leave the players to decide how the economy will run and focus on adjusting the rate of mining versus using up of materials to control major inflation/deflation.

 

Crafting coins, from metals sounds the best especially if it gives some sort of advantage in terms of carrying it. If players then want to create their own paper or electronic currencies I would love to see how that plays out but personally I will be keeping a stash of gold bullion in my safe.

 

The isk inflation had nothing to do when you sell to NPCs in eve, as NPCs didnt buy anything. They gave out quest which injected money, but would never buy items from you on the market. Their market, as DU intends to be, is player driven. 

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The isk inflation had nothing to do when you sell to NPCs in eve, as NPCs didnt buy anything. They gave out quest which injected money, but would never buy items from you on the market. Their market, as DU intends to be, is player driven. 

 

I stand corrected

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For a gold sink, you could have items called "Market Modules"  that must be purchased from the Arkship.  This module would need to be installed in a base or space station (or maybe even large ship) to generate a UI for a market when close enough to the location.  Item's could be stored inside of this structure by anyone with good reputation/standing to be placed on the 'market' for sale.  Then the Arkship can take a small cut of the profit of any sale on any market module as a tax.  After all, in the story the Arkship is the salvation of your species and would logically be the center of official 'government' used as loosely as DU wants it to be.  This would allow AI to remain in the Arkship and give missions to anyone that wants them.  Thus creating a market generator.  The reason I am pro-inflation to a degree, as it allows for a greater range of prices in the long term for more rare or sought-after items or resources.  It increases the range of possible value for everything.

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I agree with the previous posters who said that having no dedicated currency would be best. As long as there is a robust trading system in the game, people will simply find one or several different resources to serve as a currency. It works really well in other games and kind of regulates itself.

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The big problem I see in NQ's system is if a bunch of new players join and the amount of curency stays the same then the value of the currency will go up since the demend for it has gotten higher, so I think within having a common currency, the best way to inject new cash is via new players.

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38 minutes ago, 0something0 said:

The big problem I see in NQ's system is if a bunch of new players join and the amount of curency stays the same then the value of the currency will go up since the demend for it has gotten higher, so I think within having a common currency, the best way to inject new cash is via new players.

 

JC actually touched on this in his interview on Fox News Radio. He mentioned injecting (and removing) money with market bots. Alluding that it will be similar to how Eve-Online does it.

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1 hour ago, starlark said:

I thought the only currency in this game would be  DAC. and everything else would be from what resources the players view as valuable

You mistook DAC for something else then.


DAC is a gametime token you can sell in-game as an item on the market to other plaeyer, for in-game money. DAC == 1 month of subscription.

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The rare resource idea that @Shynras proposed is a well-reasoned and sound idea. Something like gold (which IRL civilizations have used as a currency standard for centuries) presents the best of both worlds:

  1. it is not a fixed-quantity currency (so speculators cannot just hoard and have a special claim to currency purchasing power like the current Quanta system allows);
  2. Yet it is not something that can just be conjured up at will, as the paper currencies of today are, thereby insulating the currency value against uncontrolled inflation.
  3. Furthermore, the resource should be something that has both monetary and consumer value, meaning that it can be used both as money (or used to craft money) or used as a normal resource (preferably as an essential element in some important aspect of the game, for ex. Construct Cores, as Shynras suggested). This therefore allows both natural currency generation and withdrawal/destruction.

Of course, this also hinges on the ability to either:

  1. Make reversible changes (convert constructs back into the raw resources used to make it), so that once Rare Resource X gets used in crafting, it's not just gone forever and can be regained by deconstructing the product; or
  2. Have natural resource regeneration (but of course, not always in the exact same place), so that Rare Resource X is not utterly depleted, putting us back at square one with a fixed currency.

IMHO, the best thing NQ can do is team up with economics experts to develop a realistic and effective currency system that can foster and adapt to the development of the DU economy. Please, feel free to rip these ideas apart - I may somehow be hopelessly flawed in my economic expertise, so other ideas are more than welcome.

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18 minutes ago, Astrophil said:

The rare resource idea that @Shynras proposed is a well-reasoned and sound idea. Something like gold (which IRL civilizations have used as a currency standard for centuries) presents the best of both worlds:

  1. it is not a fixed-quantity currency (so speculators cannot just hoard and have a special claim to currency purchasing power like the current Quanta system allows);
  2. Yet it is not something that can just be conjured up at will, as the paper currencies of today are, thereby insulating the currency value against uncontrolled inflation.
  3. Furthermore, the resource should be something that has both monetary and consumer value, meaning that it can be used both as money (or used to craft money) or used as a normal resource (preferably as an essential element in some important aspect of the game, for ex. Construct Cores, as Shynras suggested). This therefore allows both natural currency generation and withdrawal/destruction.

Of course, this also hinges on the ability to either:

  1. Make reversible changes (convert constructs back into the raw resources used to make it), so that once Rare Resource X gets used in crafting, it's not just gone forever and can be regained by deconstructing the product; or
  2. Have natural resource regeneration (but of course, not always in the exact same place), so that Rare Resource X is not utterly depleted, putting us back at square one with a fixed currency.

IMHO, the best thing NQ can do is team up with economics experts to develop a realistic and effective currency system that can foster and adapt to the development of the DU economy. Please, feel free to rip these ideas apart - I may somehow be hopelessly flawed in my economic expertise, so other ideas are more than welcome.

problem is, plutonium is a rare resource.

Quanta is an exchange token for ease of use, same as fiat money.


PRoblem is NQ not keeping the amount fixed in-game. EVE's price inflation happend cause CCP didn't embrace deflation when crowds moved in, having a currency that inflated over time to ridiculous proportions.

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6 minutes ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

problem is, plutonium is a rare resource.

Quanta is an exchange token for ease of use, same as fiat money.


PRoblem is NQ not keeping the amount fixed in-game. EVE's price inflation happend cause CCP didn't embrace deflation when crowds moved in, having a currency that inflated over time to ridiculous proportions.

We could just as effectively use plutonium as currency save for safety concerns and that it would eventually decay. I agree that convenience is important, and in this fiat currency is very effective. However, how/why can/should NQ regulate the amount of circulating currency? Being marketed as an emergent, player-driven game, doesn't it make sense that dev intervention, especially in something as pervasive to the game as the in-game economy, should be kept to a minimum?

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1 minute ago, Astrophil said:

We could just as effectively use plutonium as currency save for safety concerns and that it would eventually decay. I agree that convenience is important, and in this fiat currency is very effective. However, how/why can/should NQ regulate the amount of circulating currency? Being marketed as an emergent, player-driven game, doesn't it make sense that dev intervention, especially in something as pervasive to the game as the in-game economy, should be kept to a minimum?

the problem of inflation arises if NQ adds more money into circulation so new people have a way to earn some revnue.

Problem with that, is that Gold Farmers will exploit it - big time.

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58 minutes ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

the problem of inflation arises if NQ adds more money into circulation so new people have a way to earn some revnue.

Problem with that, is that Gold Farmers will exploit it - big time.

So then dev-injected money is still problematic. (Also have no idea what "that" you're referring to when you say "problem with that") :huh:

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Using plutonium as currency is not viable as large amounts of it cannot be carried around withour it going critical, and the stuff has to be synthesized. 

 

Also, isnt inflation ok if its done to adjust for new players since inflation causes prices to decrease but new players wil increase demend therefore increasing price?

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13 hours ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

problem is, plutonium is a rare resource.

Quanta is an exchange token for ease of use, same as fiat money.


PRoblem is NQ not keeping the amount fixed in-game. EVE's price inflation happend cause CCP didn't embrace deflation when crowds moved in, having a currency that inflated over time to ridiculous proportions.

If people move in or out, causing deflation/inflation, that's still emergent gameplay. Inflation or deflation caused by NQ using bots is not. 

 

 

5 hours ago, 0something0 said:

Using plutonium as currency is not viable as large amounts of it cannot be carried around withour it going critical, and the stuff has to be synthesized. 

 

Also, isnt inflation ok if its done to adjust for new players since inflation causes prices to decrease but new players wil increase demend therefore increasing price?

The idea is that you can transform that rare resource into credits and back

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The best way to balance an economy is by using time, because it's a natural and limited "resource" for everyone and for that reason it has a value. 

 

1) You grind a rare resource (that you can use to print money), you spend time by doing so, your time has value = the rare resource you mine has value.
2)When there's too much of that rare resource on the market its price decrease, less people will mine that (because it's less convenient and gives you a lower reward for your time) and this will naturally reduce the amount of that resource on the market, rising its price again.

3)Vice versa, if there's a shortage of that rare resource its value increase >> more miners >> more resource on the market >> its value decrease.

 

All of this happens over time, there are no swings. The increases or decreases i'm talking about are very small usually, and keep the dynamic value of that resource stable ( and if that resource value is stable, so it is for the money you print from it) , unless there's some unexpected external event (like an anomalous influx of new players). 

 

 

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Problem though: if it's mineable and used in certain elements too, ppl will seize control of deposits asap, control the market (sit on that element, make it even rarer), and may form cartels. See eves moongoo cartel - that didn't turn out so well

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29 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Problem though: if it's mineable and used in certain elements too, ppl will seize control of deposits asap, control the market (sit on that element, make it even rarer), and may form cartels. See eves moongoo cartel - that didn't turn out so well

Then set conditions so that no more than x amount of Rare Element X is concentrated within an area of y cubic meters in any given location. It should be very rare after all. Also allow people to deconstruct constructs into raw resources, then make resources nonregenerating, or very slowly regenerating - so that it won’t be that profitable to control deposits.

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43 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Problem though: if it's mineable and used in certain elements too, ppl will seize control of deposits asap, control the market (sit on that element, make it even rarer), and may form cartels. See eves moongoo cartel - that didn't turn out so well

yes, but those moons had endless resources - DU is not as such. Pirate mining operations can still be a thing, as they are IRL.

Not all diamond / gold / silver operations are legitimate in the real world - and those rose to circumvent the IRL Cartels.

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