If we balance let's balance

[XKentX]

So you can't put L guns on XS cores.

 

Why you can put L containers on XS cores ?

Why you can put Warp drive L on XS cores ?

 

What's the point of it? You are nerfing PVP even more.

 

If you want to balance, balance it. Make only L cores warp-capable (Warp Drive L), only L-Cores to be able to have L containers etc. Sounds fair.

 

 

[Daphne Jones]

I suspect this is a placeholder for the final system in which you will be able to put a L gun on an XS core, but the necessary power might leave only enough for a single xs engine - i.e. trade-offs. We don't have trade-offs atm.

 

As for balance. Combat needs balancing... cargo hauling is already balanced by physics. Sure, you can put a L container on an XS core, but fill it with gold nuggets and see how far you get.

 

In the previous patches, i was locked out of combat since my well designed combat-capable haulers had 0 chance of getting in lock range of the meta-griefer-ships before being destroyed. I would have had to build to the meta (including no atmo engines/wings and no cargo) in order to have a chance, which defeats the purpose of a hauler of course. Now, if the griefers come after me, I'll at least be able to shoot back.

 

I expect we'll eventually see XS cubes built on L cores as the new meta, but considering the billion quanta cost of the first L dyn core you make, we may have a few weeks before those are flying.

 

[XKentX]

1 hour ago, Daphne Jones said:

I suspect this is a placeholder for the final system in which you will be able to put a L gun on an XS core, but the necessary power might leave only enough for a single xs engine - i.e. trade-offs. We don't have trade-offs atm.

 

As for balance. Combat needs balancing... cargo hauling is already balanced by physics. Sure, you can put a L container on an XS core, but fill it with gold nuggets and see how far you get.

 

In the previous patches, i was locked out of combat since my well designed combat-capable haulers had 0 chance of getting in lock range of the meta-griefer-ships before being destroyed. I would have had to build to the meta (including no atmo engines/wings and no cargo) in order to have a chance, which defeats the purpose of a hauler of course. Now, if the griefers come after me, I'll at least be able to shoot back.

 

I expect we'll eventually see XS cubes built on L cores as the new meta, but considering the billion quanta cost of the first L dyn core you make, we may have a few weeks before those are flying.

 

OK but what about the warp drive ?

Why we allow XS cores, small ships to instantly appear on the other end of the solar system with 1 click ? Let's make it L core only so you actually need to invest if you want that "i win button" and you pay more for actually warping. ATM it just doesn't makes sense to put more restrictions on the PVP side for "balancing" while PVP is the least popular and worst implemented part of the game.

 

[Daphne Jones]

1 hour ago, XKentX said:

OK but what about the warp drive ?

Why we allow XS cores, small ships to instantly appear on the other end of the solar system with 1 click ? Let's make it L core only so you actually need to invest if you want that "i win button" and you pay more for actually warping. ATM it just doesn't makes sense to put more restrictions on the PVP side for "balancing" while PVP is the least popular and worst implemented part of the game.

 

Just the size of a warp drive makes it difficult for an XS core. I have a warp courier that had to upgrade to an S core to make space for the warp drive. I expect power concerns will also manage the use of warp drives eventually. Maybe I'll have to down size my engines to keep the warp drive in my courier ship when power comes in.

 

Mean time, it's no where near an "I win button". Sure, it allows us to avoid the really horrible so-called combat that's in game... but when it involves a transport ship, combat is just griefing. Warp lets me avoid your meta-ship "I win button".

[XKentX]

21 minutes ago, Daphne Jones said:

but when it involves a transport ship, combat is just griefing. Warp lets me avoid your meta-ship "I win button".

when combat involves transport ship it's piracy. Core part of any space game.

[Daphne Jones]

3 minutes ago, XKentX said:

when combat involves transport ship it's piracy. Core part of any space game.

Sure... when the game gives the transport ship some mechanism for defense. That doesn't exist in the combat system of the recent patches - meta ships could hammer a transport while staying out of range of whatever guns it had... and stay out of range since they certainly had more acceleration. 

 

Compare to say, Star Citizen, where your pirate ship may be faster and more maneuverable, but I have bigger guns and a tankier ship. Still not a fair fight, but I have a chance. In DU, avoiding the battle is the only chance. (And don't go spouting BS about escorts cause everyone knows that doesn't work).

[XKentX]

3 minutes ago, Daphne Jones said:

Sure... when the game gives the transport ship some mechanism for defense. That doesn't exist in the combat system of the recent patches - meta ships could hammer a transport while staying out of range of whatever guns it had... and stay out of range since they certainly had more acceleration. 

 

Compare to say, Star Citizen, where your pirate ship may be faster and more maneuverable, but I have bigger guns and a tankier ship. Still not a fair fight, but I have a chance. In DU, avoiding the battle is the only chance. (And don't go spouting BS about escorts cause everyone knows that doesn't work).

That was removed this patch, now the freighter can lock and shoot the same way as the attacker. All cores lock ranges are equal, XS cannot have L guns. With all this, let's make warp drive require L core.

[Daphne Jones]

Just now, XKentX said:

That was removed this patch, now the freighter can lock and shoot the same way as the attacker. All cores lock ranges are equal, XS cannot have L guns. With all this, let's make warp drive require L core.

Yes. I should have added, it remains to be seen whether the current stop-gap will work. I expect once the griefer orgs get their L core production lines going, I'll be up against L weapons and radar, but now limited to M weapons and radar myself and the issue will be the same. They'll be shooting from out of my max range and they'll be able to stay out of my max range. And now I won't be able to afford warp cells to avoid the fight.

[XKentX]

2 minutes ago, Daphne Jones said:

Yes. I should have added, it remains to be seen whether the current stop-gap will work. I expect once the griefer orgs get their L core production lines going, I'll be up against L weapons and radar, but now limited to M weapons and radar myself and the issue will be the same. They'll be shooting from out of my max range and they'll be able to stay out of my max range. And now I won't be able to afford warp cells to avoid the fight.

So PVP should be paused up until the point you decide to get the L radar you say ?

 

Or up until you have enough warp cells ?

[Daphne Jones]

1 minute ago, XKentX said:

So PVP should be paused up until the point you decide to get the L radar you say ?

 

Or up until you have enough warp cells ?

No. But in it's current state (seriously dysfunctional) I should be able to avoid it. Once it's close enough to be worth testing, I'll be glad to jump in with an easily replaceable ship and try it out, but it would just be a waste of my time right now. (Although I have still done it as crew in other people's ships - that's how I know how bad it is now - as of a few patches ago).

[XKentX]

8 minutes ago, Daphne Jones said:

No. But in it's current state (seriously dysfunctional) I should be able to avoid it. Once it's close enough to be worth testing, I'll be glad to jump in with an easily replaceable ship and try it out, but it would just be a waste of my time right now. (Although I have still done it as crew in other people's ships - that's how I know how bad it is now - as of a few patches ago).

Game is advertised as open world pvp with piracy that's per NQ. "I should be able to avoid it" doesn't fit that.

[Penwith]

12 minutes ago, XKentX said:

Game is advertised as open world pvp with piracy that's per NQ. "I should be able to avoid it" doesn't fit that.

Yes, it does, otherwise it would be EVE.

 

For every action, there is a counter, or should be/needs to be. Avoidance of combat is even more effective than any armor ever devised, as a means to survive.

 

The game is not designed or intended to funnel every hauler into the pathway of people whose sole intent is to take and destroy the fruits of their labors.

[Daphne Jones]

24 minutes ago, XKentX said:

Game is advertised as open world pvp with piracy that's per NQ. "I should be able to avoid it" doesn't fit that.

First, when combat actually works as intended and is balanced, I will hunting you pirates.

 

Second, avoidance is a valid tactic. Sun Tze even recommends it in the Art of War. Right now, combat is unbalanced - if you fire a shot at me you win, but if I try to avoid the fight, I succeed. I'm just saying let's keep both imbalances until combat is balanced - you can still practice against willing opponents until that balance comes. I may be out there practicing too, but it will be in cheap ass ships that I can easily restore from a BP (in the current patch, that probably won't ever happen of course, because money is tight and everything is financially out of reach).

[Musclethorpe]

6 hours ago, XKentX said:

Game is advertised as open world pvp with piracy that's per NQ. "I should be able to avoid it" doesn't fit that.

I wouldn't call this "piracy" at all. Basically it's PvP with looting. Piracy would require me to have some tools to coerce cargo/money from people without having to kill them. As it stands I can barely text chat a threat to some one, and even if I could how would I get anything from them? This game has a LONG ways to go if we want real piracy. Disabling tools, a way to forcibly board ships and break containers without having to pew pew everything to bits first. You know, finesse type stuff.

[Helediron]

This thread is apples to oranges comparison. You want our carebear ships to have as many L containers as possible.

[XKentX]

8 hours ago, Musclethorpe said:

I wouldn't call this "piracy" at all. Basically it's PvP with looting. Piracy would require me to have some tools to coerce cargo/money from people without having to kill them. As it stands I can barely text chat a threat to some one, and even if I could how would I get anything from them? This game has a LONG ways to go if we want real piracy. Disabling tools, a way to forcibly board ships and break containers without having to pew pew everything to bits first. You know, finesse type stuff.

I am ok with pew pew to bits until rest is implemented. Just worried there won't be enough shit flying around post patch.

[Elitez]

19 hours ago, XKentX said:

So you can't put L guns on XS cores.

 

Why you can put L containers on XS cores ?

Why you can put Warp drive L on XS cores ?

 

What's the point of it? You are nerfing PVP even more.

 

If you want to balance, balance it. Make only L cores warp-capable (Warp Drive L), only L-Cores to be able to have L containers etc. Sounds fair.

 

 

Limitations are bad, are bad for creativity. Patch is needed right now but everything will be back to normal when Energy system will be here.

[blazemonger]

18 hours ago, XKentX said:

when combat involves transport ship it's piracy. Core part of any space game.

Shooting a hauler does not equate to piracy unless you have a purpose beyond shooting a hauler.

As a pirate, shooting should be the last thing to do as getting the loot would be your objective as it is what you live off of.

 

I certainly get that at this stage there is really no option for a pirate to "be a pirate" as all you really can do is shoot your opponent but that does not make the above argument incorrect.

 

I would strongly disagree that a player hunting and shooting a hauler is griefing, that is just nonsense. It's really unfortunate that NQ pretty much have said that it will be many months before any significant changes will come to PVP and I think that prioritizing industry over PVP as they have was a mistake as the time spent would have been far more beneficial for the game if it was put into PVP and I simply do not buy that the decision was not at all linked to performance issues with the backend specifically.

 

Pushing out PVP changes so far and so close to where the game should "release" IMO is a mistake and a risk NQ should not want to take

[Musclethorpe]

3 hours ago, blazemonger said:

Pushing out PVP changes so far and so close to where the game should "release" IMO is a mistake and a risk NQ should not want to take

Having a game which is based around PvP, be it ship vs ship or territory vs territory, release the majority of that content in the late stages of development is a huge mistake. The game has already become infested with carebears who will lose their minds when their sandcastles get knocked over.

[blazemonger]

DU is not "based around PVP" so that is not an argument. What is an argument is that the combat in game is currently lacking to the extent that it is not providing the incentive and mechanics to be meaningful unless you agree on a "meet at the sun"  scenario.

 

And "knocking over sandcastles" will be quite a bit tougher than many think. My expectation will be that most of the "complaints" will be due to that and due to the ways a TU may be protected  from attack. And to knock over anything you will first need to get to and deactivate the TU..

[Musclethorpe]

5 hours ago, blazemonger said:

DU is not "based around PVP" so that is not an argument.

While not yet implemented, it is based around territory control. Everything up to is a means to this end.

 

Regardless of the difficulty, these sand castles will be knocked over, and people will be upset that it was even possible.

[GraXXoR]

6 hours ago, Musclethorpe said:

Having a game which is based around PvP, be it ship vs ship or territory vs territory, release the majority of that content in the late stages of development is a huge mistake. The game has already become infested with carebears who will lose their minds when their sandcastles get knocked over.

Ah.. I see, by carebears you mean the people actually doing the hard work extracting the resources and building the civilization rather than the ones intent waving their micro penises around and pissing on everything? 

 

got it. ?

[Musclethorpe]

44 minutes ago, GraXXoR said:

the ones intent waving their micro penises around and pissing on everything?

Carebear talk if I've ever seen it, and I never said every PvEer was a carebear did I? Apprently you can't enjoy PvP without having some kind of mental deficiency according to people like you. Every PvPer is probably a ganker to you too, right?

[GraXXoR]

10 minutes ago, Musclethorpe said:

Carebear talk if I've ever seen it, and I never said every PvEer was a carebear did I? Apprently you can't enjoy PvP without having some kind of mental deficiency according to people like you. Every PvPer is probably a ganker to you too, right?

Defensive talk if ever I've seen it. I was just reversing the rhetoric... I never said every PvPer was a dick waving pee pee fan, did I? Apparently you can't read a forum post without having some kind of mental blowout according to the way you write. Every poster against your viewpoint is probably a wanker to you, right?
 

[Musclethorpe]

5 minutes ago, GraXXoR said:

I was just reversing the rhetoric...

Yet you reversed noithing, and your implication was clear. Backpedal all you like.

 

7 minutes ago, GraXXoR said:

Apparently you can't read a forum post without having some kind of mental blowout according to the way you write.

Then you use hyperbole because...you don't like my tone?