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If we balance let's balance


XKentX

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1 hour ago, Musclethorpe said:

While not yet implemented, it is based around territory control. Everything up to is a means to this end.

 

NQ's definition is quite different. Combat is part of the array of mechanics that make up DU and in that context I'd agree territory warfare is certainly front and center. Overall though, it's "just" one of the pillars that make up the game. NQ has actually said (and I share that thought) that combat is not a goal in itself, it is a means to the end of settling disputes where no other options exist. Their vision is that combat results from reasons to use it and will come with heavy cost in resources, planning and strategy. An din it's execution it will always be the defender who will be favored over the offender.

 

pillars.png

 

 

And I do not buy your carebear trashtalk at all, in fact I expect that it will be a good portion of the "PVP" player group making the most noise about how unfair it is they have to work so hard to get their pewpew on. But we'll know by this time next year how that worked out.

 

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2 hours ago, blazemonger said:

...in fact I expect that it will be a good portion of the "PVP" player group making the most noise about how unfair it is they have to work so hard to get their pewpew on. But we'll know by this time next year how that worked out.

If Elite: Dangerous is any sort of litmus test, this won't be the case. There are numerous PvE hoops one needs to jump through before one can be viable in PvP in that game, and I don't see anyone in that crowd making a peep about it.

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27 minutes ago, Musclethorpe said:

If Elite: Dangerous is any sort of litmus test, this won't be the case. There are numerous PvE hoops one needs to jump through before one can be viable in PvP in that game, and I don't see anyone in that crowd making a peep about it.

ED isn't a fair comparison. It is a well established game of many (6) years. There are options of Solo Play with no PvP whatsoever, as well as Arenas for full slug outs. Plus you get PvP training, regular broadcasted community goals for PvE and PvP alike. All systems are in place and work. No reason for them to peep.

 

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14 minutes ago, Deintus said:

ED isn't a fair comparison. It is a well established game of many (6) years. There are options of Solo Play with no PvP whatsoever, as well as Arenas for full slug outs. Plus you get PvP training, regular broadcasted community goals for PvE and PvP alike. All systems are in place and work. No reason for them to peep.

 

1) Solo has no bearing on the entrance barrier to PvP, if PvP is what you want do. You can complete the entire grind in open play and likely see very few people, and those that you do see are easy enough to avoid.

 

2) Arenas were dead on arrival, and continue to be. Even with the implementation of the in-game queue, it has made almost no difference.

 

3) I am not sure what you call PvP training, but if you are referring to fighting NPC's, it's not even close to combating an actual player. The occurrence of PvE heroes entering PvP and getting smashed to their own surprise is common.

 

4) Again, PvE content like CG's have no bearing on the hurdles faced gaining entrance to PvP, which was your original comment on having to work hard to get into PvP.

 

Having been entrenched in the ED PvP community since its inception, and still a bit to this day, I can tell you there is significant PvE buy-in from PvPers that have nothing to do with anything you brought up in your last comment. First and foremost is the money grind; purchasing, and A-rating, a ship. Then comes the 4-week reputation grind (per special module, of which you need at least 3) in regards to Powerplay. After that is the unlocking of engineers, with the subsequent significant grind for materials of varying grades to apply the engineer's effects. If you aren't intimately familiar with all of these steps, even the descriptors I have used fall flat in face of the grind requires to be viable in PvP.

 

Even through all of this the complaints of the PvP community are less than, if not just equal to, that of the PvE crowd. The PvP crowd in this game will be just fine, if based on anything, that this game will provide a PvP environment no other game has really offered thus far (if NQ pulls this off).

 

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2 minutes ago, Musclethorpe said:

1) Solo has no bearing on the entrance barrier to PvP, if PvP is what you want do. You can complete the entire grind in open play and likely see very few people, and those that you do see are easy enough to avoid.

 

2) Arenas were dead on arrival, and continue to be. Even with the implementation of the in-game queue, it has made almost no difference.

 

3) I am not sure what you call PvP training, but if you are referring to fighting NPC's, it's not even close to combating an actual player. The occurrence of PvE heroes entering PvP and getting smashed to their own surprise is common.

 

4) Again, PvE content like CG's have no bearing on the hurdles faced gaining entrance to PvP, which was your original comment on having to work hard to get into PvP.

 

Having been entrenched in the ED PvP community since its inception, and still a bit to this day, I can tell you there is significant PvE buy-in from PvPers that have nothing to do with anything you brought up in your last comment. First and foremost is the money grind; purchasing, and A-rating, a ship. Then comes the 4-week reputation grind (per special module, of which you need at least 3) in regards to Powerplay. After that is the unlocking of engineers, with the subsequent significant grind for materials of varying grades to apply the engineer's effects. If you aren't intimately familiar with all of these steps, even the descriptors I have used fall flat in face of the grind requires to be viable in PvP.

 

Even through all of this the complaints of the PvP community are less than, if not just equal to, that of the PvE crowd. The PvP crowd in this game will be just fine, if based on anything, that this game will provide a PvP environment no other game has really offered thus far (if NQ pulls this off).

 

1) Point taken, i was just mentioning it because it demonstrates that you can play the game without ever seeing another player or even attempting to engage in PvP if you so chose.

 

2) They work well with predetermined groups and friends. Queue for one? Forget about it... but it is there and available.

 

3) The initial NPC fights are only the first step. It teaches you to control a ship and keep a lead on a target. Get with your friends and practice in other areas. I have yet to meet a griefer or troll there since I left the starting planet 4 years ago. Again, Arena, that selection called social.

 

4) Maybe it's me. Getting started in PvP on ED was easy, simple, fairly quick.

 

Great that you have 2 years over me in ED. So? To me the grind doesn't feel like a grind... explore, trade, mining, bounty hunt, powerplay, I do whatever I feel like doing and make money at it. The engineers of course are required to become a real threat (viable) to everyone in the galaxy solo. But wings help curtail some of that. The bigger battles are always far more fun imo.

 

I didn't make my comment to argue details of ED. Most here probably don't care. My point stands...

using ED as a sole comparison of PvP against DU is not fair. DU is an unfinished product by far. Nor does it mean ED is the only one out there to compare it with. Currently there is no comparison. Few have serious complaints in ED because it's a finished product.

 

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The problem as I see it is that NQ isn't balancing the game the way it was supposed to be done. The principle idea behind DU was to give the players tools and a set of world rules (physics etc.), and then let it play out with emergent gameplay. But that idea quickly got abandoned by NQ, since it requires that they actually need to know in detail how the game is supposed to work. Much quicker and less work to just add lots of quick patches and special rules for problems as they occur instead. Even if they break the universal world rules, and ignores that most of the balancing issues are because we don't have the tools and world rules needed for a complete ecosystem yet. It should be obvious to NQ that the reason why everybody is doing industry, is simply because that is the only part of the game that works proper and there are no alternatives. Just as it should also be obvious that people would build PvP ships as small and economical as possible, based on the size and weight of L weapon elements.

 

And it also turns out that JC seem to have some very specific ideas about how this game is supposed to be played after all..

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9 hours ago, Musclethorpe said:

If Elite: Dangerous is any sort of litmus test, this won't be the case. There are numerous PvE hoops one needs to jump through before one can be viable in PvP in that game, and I don't see anyone in that crowd making a peep about it.

That is not the argument.

 

PVP players will start complaining about the options non combatants will have to mitigate attacks without actually engaging. I'm talking ECM here. Jamming, radar lock breaking, stealth, decoys and the likes. PVP players will also start complaining about people placing TU underground, burying them and/or enclosing them with voxel material to prevent access by hostile forces. All available and permitted actions. Players wil build bases underground making it extremely hard to get to and PVP plyers will complain it's an unfair advantage to build into the ground and be that hard to get to.

 

The most heard complaints currently are form PVP players about warp and even attempts to make using safezones around planets to get up to speed as exploits.. 

 

Now, how is the care bear in those instances? The smart non combatant or the "I want my killz but please no effort included or required" pewpew brigade.

 

NOTE: I know there's genuine PVP players out there and you know who you are, this does not apply to you nor will it I hope.

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21 hours ago, GraXXoR said:

Ah.. I see, by carebears you mean the people actually doing the hard work extracting the resources and building the civilization rather than the ones intent waving their micro penises around and pissing on everything? 

 

got it. ?

Since when are the fighers the ones with the micro penis? ? Everyone will contribute into building the civilization including the pvpers. Where will the pvpers get the resources they need to fight ? In a healthy community you will need them and they will need you.

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8 hours ago, Rimezx said:

Since when are the fighers the ones with the micro penis? ? Everyone will contribute into building the civilization including the pvpers. Where will the pvpers get the resources they need to fight ? In a healthy community you will need them and they will need you.

Did you read the quote I... err.. quoted...? I was just paraphrasing the chump who posted in front of me. He made an assumption using a blanket disparagement so I just replied using a blanket disparagement. Nothing to do with how I actually feel...

 

Interesting that you mention “fighers” (sic)... a lot of quote-unquote “pvpers” enjoy it far more when the person they are “pvping” is unable to actually fight back rather than confronting another actual pvper who would present a real challenge.
 

They are often challenged enough in real life to not need any more challenges in game hence the immense need to feel empowered and validated in a role playing scenario such as a 2D computer game.  They feel the need to win at something, even if it’s not real. 
 

This is a forum about a single poorly executed and iffy game with some great ideas that keep us here, not something real-life-important like COVID or the US election one month Clingon debacle so no need to actually say what one actually feels. It’s just for lols entertainment?

 

enjoy. 
 

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Currently the PVP community is vocal because NQ literally robbed them of 21$ or so.

 

Game is being advertised as PVP while in fact, PVP is completely pointless and impossible to find even if you do it just for fun. No one flies outside the safe zones. Everyone warps back and forth. There is no way to intercept them.

Those that don't warp go to 30k in 2.5SU safe zone and good luck trying to catch-up.

The only pvp cubes of the previous patch are sitting 1su away from safezone and run there if there is any danger. There is no commitment so PVP goes to "we fired at them, they fired at us. We now both sit and repair our ships".

There is no way to be a "pirate". The transport ships don't need to do much to avoid you. IQ>40 is usually enough to fly in complete safety anywhere.

 

I am not talking "1v1 white knights PVP", If I want that there are games that do it better. I am talking about sandbox "surprise buttsex PVP".

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7 hours ago, GraXXoR said:

Interesting that you mention “fighers” (sic)... a lot of quote-unquote “pvpers” enjoy it far more when the person they are “pvping” is unable to actually fight back rather than confronting another actual pvper who would present a real challenge.

Well i agree with you that in the current state of the game pvp cannot really function as it should. The game is nowhere near completion. What i would like to note by quoting that part is that it's not only about enjoyment. What you are referring to is piracy, which is one kind of pvp. Yes i know its pretty much the only pvp activity right now. Since piracy is also about profit, logic dictates that you go for an engagement that minimizes risk and maximizes the reward. Yes you can go fight against an equally powerful opponent that can fight back but what will that earn you right now?

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1 hour ago, Rimezx said:

Well i agree with you that in the current state of the game pvp cannot really function as it should. The game is nowhere near completion. What i would like to note by quoting that part is that it's not only about enjoyment. What you are referring to is piracy, which is one kind of pvp. Yes i know its pretty much the only pvp activity right now. Since piracy is also about profit, logic dictates that you go for an engagement that minimizes risk and maximizes the reward. Yes you can go fight against an equally powerful opponent that can fight back but what will that earn you right now?

Exactly.

You fight another PVP guy and win(which doesn't even happen so much - in most cases he runs to safezone):

1) Your guns are 1/3

2) His guns and all elements are complete trash

3) There is zero point in doing so

 

If I would like to just build something and fight equally balanced ship there are games especially for that, they usually have "To Battle" on top of the main screen... That's not what I came to the sandbox for.

 

I get that we need safezone garden, that's the safezone triangle but why we have all those warps and safezones IN SPACE of the outer planets wtf.

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43 minutes ago, XKentX said:

I get that we need safezone garden, that's the safezone triangle but why we have all those warps and safezones IN SPACE of the outer planets wtf.

It cannot work any other way right now. Think about it. The pvp system in this game is not ready for this change. If it happened now it would be an even grater disaster than 0.23. Welp i think the game is dead already so i don't even know why I am even considering its future. 

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3 hours ago, XKentX said:

Currently the PVP community is vocal because NQ literally robbed them of 21$ or so.

There is no way to be a "pirate". The transport ships don't need to do much to avoid you. IQ>40 is usually enough to fly in complete safety anywhere.

I can't tell if we agree entirely or disagree mildly.

 

Depends on whether you're talking broadly about the game or solely since the patch.

Before the patch there was plenty of pirating. If you haven't already seen it check out Blitz Squadrons Piracy Musuem. It's accessible via VR on 'Band of Outlaws Piracy Museum.' It's small and since the patch doesn't look like it'll be growing due to the lack of economy in claiming wrecks anymore even if you can catch them. Plug plug plug.

There was good money and good eating in piracy and BOO got plenty of cubes with military engines and good spec ammo knocking over the escorts as much as the haulers.

 

It's quite unfair to say that only stupid people got killed, a lot of very smart haulers got caught, the mechanics of the game aren't foolproof.

Everything's risk/reward. Just because someone loses once in a while doesn't mean they were wrong.

 

Without any irony the changes to the way cores/claiming wrecks have come out, not to mention the utterly insane conservation of momentum only when observed (how does that even work? An object is stationary then suddenly accelerates to 10,000 km/h when you get close to it? That's far less logical than it was before) have post-patch eliminated piracy.

If that's your point we ought to agree completely.

 

I'd add to the point that the new industry limitations means a lot of people will be flying inferior ships. If there's only two XL engines on the market and the only other one you can afford is on another planet then I guess you won't have a four engine ship like you wanted. Can't afford warpcells? Well, if you were a billionaire you could make your own. Guess not. Slowboat for you.

 

This ought to be a golden age for piracy. People are flying crap ships cobbled together during this recession and are more reliant than ever on slowboating between planets for supplies they can no-longer produce in house or locally.

But the patches other changes have made that uneconomical and sucked what remains of the profit, let alone fun out.

 

On 12/11/2020 at 10:53 PM, Musclethorpe said:

While not yet implemented, it is based around territory control. Everything up to is a means to this end.

 

Doesn't feel like it to a plurality of the games population - maybe even to a majority.

What's there to control? Who wants territory?!

The mega nodes are gone, the prime mining spots are gone.

JC has explicitly said he doesn't believe the game should have big, giant factories or massive ostentatious bases. He seems to think we should all go play second life if we want more than the starter hovel we get on Sanctuary.

It's all supposed to be specialised fabrication in small factories dedicated to a single purpose and not exceeding it.

 

With the changes to schematics very few people are operating mega-giant factories, people aren't building these huge HQ complexes with ten types of honeycomb and hundreds of screens and hundreds of plants and toilets and decoration for its own sake. I know a number of people (including myself) who were who have now had to abandon the idea. Their stuff's unfinished and never will be. The economy and grind doesn't justify building these megastructures any more just for the ambition of it.

 

Why would anyone want to take over territory in this game? The only thing worth taking is the schematics and they can be flown out in someone's inventory.

 

If you say NQ have a long term plan... cool. Perhaps they do. Again, no sense of that so far, I see a knee-jerk reaction to stem gameplay that JC hasn't approved of.

Whatever they introduce from now on is going to struggle to incentivise people to place it in places it'll be at risk of being taken when ever Territory warfare is introduced if it ever is.

 

They're going to have to come up with some wizardly clever new feature to get anyone interest in wanting to take over any one specific tile in the game - and even then, it'll just be the mega-giant alliances taking it over and keeping it.

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43 minutes ago, Interscene said:

<cut to save space>

Wreck stops:

If you approach a wreck to 1km it instantly gains "(old speed) - 5%" so it flies away from you, you approach it again and it happens again, rinse and repeat until you can kinda make it slow.

It's not immersion breaking, it's immersion eliminating. The damn thing just jumps like a frog.

 

BOO:

I am the guy that was piloting ANH monstruosa, S Core with 24 L guns during the doomsday event, firing almost non stop on that BOO golden thingy until they crashed. Our ship survived to be dismantled for parts now. There was no way for BOO to lose it as if they would get any near the destruction they could just run to the safe zone + BOO made alliance IN THEIR OWN EVENT(4 S cores with AXE tag during the event are not BOO but BOO "mini alliance" they did for the event) with one of the Russian alliances as they were scared to go alone. So much PVP elite pirates lol. (Common BOO, you will not deny it would you?) Doomsday for everyone, "safe pvp" for BOO.

I will check out their graveyard and compare to mine. I didn't open mine to visitors yet, damn wrecks get slapped to one another so there is no way to kinda arrange them to look like anything meaningful but I have some cool samples.

 

Piracy:

Before the patch it was "you should know the meta", now it's "you know the meta + have to play meta + do all illogical stuff while jumping on left leg" or you don't get anything. Even if you get something it is a complete trash. The warp cell cost for ore transports is lower, they can sell 5% of their ore to bots (that are present at all planets and have higher prices now) and get enough for warp cells. Everybody and his grandma is mass producing cells already and the prices dropped lower than before the patch. Everyone just warps back and forth.

 

PVP balance:

We will be rolling L-Core with L guns now shooting everything we see. How many noobs can afford L-Cores ? Nothing else doesn't stand a chance, it will be almost instantly evaporated. Look at the HP on the medium guns and compare it to L-Guns. (Tip: Railgun M doesn't survive 1 Railgun S hit). So newbro friendly entrance to the most glitchy part of the game...

Before, it was damn fun to roll on XS cores with 2 guys kiting and ace-piloting to hold yourself out of lock range. You knew you can't kill the larger ships (you will just run out of ammo) but at least you wouldn't get evaporated in seconds. You could learn to fly, get used to it etc. That's not possible now.

 

So at the end, no piracy as everyone warps, no "fights" as it's either not worth it or heavily one-sided.

 

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