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Du you have some quantas for me? (just some questions about the currency)


Rafiki
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1. How will Quantas generate and distributed to the market?

2. Is there an inflation? 

 

3. Is there a way how Quantas can be lost or destroyed for ever and is there a regulation like a minimal tax by the arkship to collect (like destroy) it for reduce inflation or something like that?

 

4. Can i send the digital quantas across the universe to a other player with no delay and no fee?

 

 

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1. There will be some simple "market bots" to help pump money into the economy and control the money supply.

 

2. That depends on how currency sinks and faucets are implemented, but I would guess that there will be inflation over time.

 

3. Maybe. I wish we had more details on this, but I think they are still weighing their options.

 

4. I would assume so. 

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English (Translator used)

 

Hello Rafiki,
I think BOO gives me all their Qunatas.

For where other projectiles see, I see as a banker usable material and material is equal to Quantas.

 

 

German (orginal)

 

Hallo Rafiki,

ich denke BOO schenkt mir alle ihre Qunatas.

Denn wo andere Geschosse sehen, sehe ich als Banker verwertbares Material und Material ist gleich Quantas.

 

 

mfG Die Waldfee

 

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6 hours ago, Rafiki said:

1. How will Quantas generate and distributed to the market?

2. Is there an inflation? 

 

3. Is there a way how Quantas can be lost or destroyed for ever and is there a regulation like a minimal tax by the arkship to collect (like destroy) it for reduce inflation or something like that?

 

4. Can i send the digital quantas across the universe to a other player with no delay and no fee?

 

 

 

1. there will be bots (no NPCs!) who just create buy orders for minerals to generate quanta

2. possibly. Not as much as in eve though, because there is no PVE and respawning mobs/asteroids and such. It all depends on quanta sinks/faucets

3. player leaves DU, possibly by death - if you're speaking of quanta sinks: monthly fee for TCU / market taxes within the arkzone (pay aphelia) and so on

4. it wasn't talked about iirc, but it's the future and convenient - so why not

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Well usualy a really good part of those players are new players and won't leave with a lot of money in their wallet...

the older players that leave the game will or league their money or leave with their money, overhaul, it won't be a huge amount leaving...

We'll have to see in the long run

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1. Bots will pump quanta in the market

2. Bots will control the money supply and print money only when needed, and that means the inflation will be low (NQ has control over it anyway, so they can do what they want)

3. You can't loot quanta from players. Quanta gets lost already when a player stop playing (and has quantas on his account), so there's no need for that: bots will just stop buying stuff from the market when the inflation is too high. 

4. We don't know, but it's possible, since quanta doesn't have a physical form in the game and is a virtual currency.

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1. There will be market bots on the arkship that will buy items (most likely mined resources only) from players. That would mean that the ONLY way to get money in the early days will be to either:

  • mine ore to sell to the arkship bots
  • ...or rob miners of ore that can then be sold to the arkship bots.

 

2. Inflation will start immediately, because the money supply will start increasing immediately.

  • EVE managed to keep the average player shielded from the effects of inflation, even though it has two GIANT money faucets (NPC missions and ratting in belts). That'a because there's a very low barrier to entry in the manufacturing of T1 (common) items in EVE, which means cut-throat competition and low prices across the board, as 100's of player manufacturers all try to undercut each other's prices. However, the inflation in EVE was quite obvious when you looked at the prices of "rare drop" NPC modules though.
  • I have no idea how difficult it will be to become a "manufacturer" in DU, but I get the feeling it will not be as easy as it is in EVE. Mass production is easily accessible to everyone in EVE, which results in huge competition and very low profits on common items.
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37 minutes ago, MaximKammerer said:

 

Or even start selling stuff?

I'd say no, it would compete with the miners. It's not even necessary to reduce inflation, since there's a natural loss of credits overtime due to players quitting the game.

 

6 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

1. There will be market bots on the arkship that will buy items (most likely mined resources only) from players. That would mean that the ONLY way to get money in the early days will be to either:

  • mine ore to sell to the arkship bots
  • ...or rob miners of ore that can then be sold to the arkship bots.

 

2. Inflation will start immediately, because the money supply will start increasing immediately.

  • EVE managed to keep the average player shielded from the effects of inflation, even though it has two GIANT money faucets (NPC missions and ratting in belts). That'a because there's a very low barrier to entry in the manufacturing of T1 (common) items in EVE, which means cut-throat competition and low prices across the board, as 100's of player manufacturers all try to undercut each other's prices. However, the inflation in EVE was quite obvious when you looked at the prices of "rare drop" NPC modules though.
  • I have no idea how difficult it will be to become a "manufacturer" in DU, but I get the feeling it will not be as easy as it is in EVE. Mass production is easily accessible to everyone in EVE, which results in huge competition and very low profits on common items.

 

NQ will disable those bots (or limit them) when the economy will reach the right amount of quanta.

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1 minute ago, Shynras said:

 

 

NQ will disable those bots (or limit them) when the economy will reach the right amount of quanta.

 

I cannot imagine how that will work in practice, unless the DU population starts shrinking.

 

Freezing the money supply freezes economic growth.

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"2. Bots will control the money supply and print money only when needed, and that means the inflation will be low (NQ has control over it anyway, so they can do what they want)"

 

Okay that means NQ try to get a low inflation. thats the goal yes? the goal is good but its sounds like NQ have to interact with manuel regulators and not automatical.

 

i hope there are equations for finance nerds to see through, because i am one of them.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Shynras said:

NQ will disable those bots (or limit them) when the economy will reach the right amount of quanta.

 

Not possible. There is no "right amount". Resources and money supply are always in flux so there will always either be inflation or deflation, and between the two I'm more worried about deflation. There is no magic number for how much money there should be

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if you just look at eve online:

There have been several investigations and all concluded (iirc) that there's no inflation at all, besides PLEX (=DAC in DU).

 

There are enough money sinks (clone upgrades, taxes on markets, fees for contracts, ...) and faucets (ships getting killed, PVE, mining,...) to balance that.

When you start playing eve you only have so much skills so you can only fly frigates for example with T1 equipment - which is cheap. As time passes, your skills increase and you can take on more difficult missions/pve/areas thus increasing your rewards (while risking more) with a more sopisticated ship (cruiser, battleship, T3). Then you start to min/max your earnings (= tuning your ship with expensive modules) because it just makes sense to do a mission in 5min and get 25mil instead of 10min with 35mil reward.

So it's just a natural player loop to flying more expensive ships - start early with 5mil and end up in carriers worth 10bil. That's no inflation there, it's just risk vs reward. But many ppl think it's inflation.

 

Kestrel (T1 frig) - 1 year of market data from jita (biggest trade hub)

https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/602

 

Paladin (T2 marauder) - 1 year of market data from jita (biggest trade hub)

https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/28659

 

Prices are pretty stable, spikes are only people messing with the market or because that ship is prime doctrine of some big alliance. There could be a war too thus people producing less because they focus on defense.

 

 

NQ will test this for sure once markets are introduced - then they just need to balance sinks/faucets and watch it.

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12 hours ago, NanoDot said:

 

I cannot imagine how that will work in practice, unless the DU population starts shrinking.

 

Freezing the money supply freezes economic growth.

Bots active = inflation goes up. When they think it's too much, they disable the bots and the inflation goes down. When they think it's too much, they activate the bots again, and the cycle continues. Alternatively (actually this is more plausible): prices will be convenient at start, but the more the global amount of quanta grows, the worse the price the bots will make, in order to reach a fixed amount of quanta (ideally you'll never reach it, it's asymptotic). It's how bitcoin works.

 

6 hours ago, Lord_Void said:

 

Not possible. There is no "right amount". Resources and money supply are always in flux so there will always either be inflation or deflation, and between the two I'm more worried about deflation. There is no magic number for how much money there should be

The "right amount" is the balance between liquidity and value, and it's the reason I pay 1€ for a baguette instead of 10 €, someone decided to stop printing € when we reached the right amount and tries to keep the value of things stable (inflation) by printing (or not) €. Inflation or deflation are RELATIVE to a certain value per quanta, and the "right amount" is what defines that value.

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5 minutes ago, Shynras said:

The "right amount" is the balance between liquidity and value, and it's the reason I pay 1€ for a baguette instead of 10 €, someone decided to stop printing € when we reached the right amount and tries to keep the value of things stable (inflation) by printing (or not) €. Inflation or deflation are RELATIVE to a certain value per quanta, and the "right amount" is what defines that value.

 

That is still not a "right amount", that is a focus on an arbitrary number. With inflation and deflation it doesn't matter whether the baguette costs $1 or $100 because it still represents the same underlying value. The reason to control inflation/deflation has very little to do with the actual numerical values of the goods, and more to do with the utility of the currency. Without having the currency inflate to match the expansion in the economy which naturally occurs as new resources are tapped, we get deflation which results in an increase of perchusing power for the currency. This isn't bad in the short term, and can actually be good for the consumer, but long term the currency becomes less useful for conducting transactions. See bad money pushing out the good money. Inflation on the other hand does the opposite, reducing the purchasing power and turning the currency into a depreciating asset. 

 

The ideal situation is to have the flow of money correlate with the expansion and contraction of the overall economy. Since the economy is not static, neither can the supply of money be static. Therefore there is no "right amount". If anything it's more like a "right flow".

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5 hours ago, Lord_Void said:

 

That is still not a "right amount", that is a focus on an arbitrary number. With inflation and deflation it doesn't matter whether the baguette costs $1 or $100 because it still represents the same underlying value. The reason to control inflation/deflation has very little to do with the actual numerical values of the goods, and more to do with the utility of the currency. Without having the currency inflate to match the expansion in the economy which naturally occurs as new resources are tapped, we get deflation which results in an increase of perchusing power for the currency. This isn't bad in the short term, and can actually be good for the consumer, but long term the currency becomes less useful for conducting transactions. See bad money pushing out the good money. Inflation on the other hand does the opposite, reducing the purchasing power and turning the currency into a depreciating asset. 

 

The ideal situation is to have the flow of money correlate with the expansion and contraction of the overall economy. Since the economy is not static, neither can the supply of money be static. Therefore there is no "right amount". If anything it's more like a "right flow".

 

Yes, but I wasn't referring to that when I said "right amount", my bad i didn't explain myself well enough. Even if, as you said 1$ or 100$ don't matter because the value is the same, making it so that 1 copper ore is worth 1.500.000 isn't a great idea, because numbers in the game would be huge to a point that they'll be actually hard to read. While if there's shortage of quanta, and on average each player has 5 quanta each (and you can't subdivide), the economy wouldn't even work. Ofc there's not a single "right amount" as you said, but not the entire spectrum is good either. What I meant is that NQ will likely choose the right amount in the good portion of the spectrum, and then control the inflation/deflation relative to that value. 

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56 minutes ago, Shynras said:

 

Yes, but I wasn't referring to that when I said "right amount", my bad i didn't explain myself well enough. Even if, as you said 1$ or 100$ don't matter because the value is the same, making it so that 1 copper ore is worth 1.500.000 isn't a great idea, because numbers in the game would be huge to a point that they'll be actually hard to read. While if there's shortage of quanta, and on average each player has 5 quanta each (and you can't subdivide), the economy wouldn't even work. Ofc there's not a single "right amount" as you said, but not the entire spectrum is good either. What I meant is that NQ will likely choose the right amount in the good portion of the spectrum, and then control the inflation/deflation relative to that value. 

 

Well I guess we are essentially in agreement then :)

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I imagine the money supply in DU will grow MUCH more slowly than it did (and still does) in EVE.

 

Mining is the only way to generate money in DU AFAIK. And mining is all done by hand, from ore that doesn't respawn.

11 hours ago, Lethys said:

if you just look at eve online:

There have been several investigations and all concluded (iirc) that there's no inflation at all, besides PLEX (=DAC in DU).

 

There are enough money sinks (clone upgrades, taxes on markets, fees for contracts, ...) and faucets (ships getting killed, PVE, mining,...) to balance that.

When you start playing eve you only have so much skills so you can only fly frigates for example with T1 equipment - which is cheap. As time passes, your skills increase and you can take on more difficult missions/pve/areas thus increasing your rewards (while risking more) with a more sopisticated ship (cruiser, battleship, T3). Then you start to min/max your earnings (= tuning your ship with expensive modules) because it just makes sense to do a mission in 5min and get 25mil instead of 10min with 35mil reward.

So it's just a natural player loop to flying more expensive ships - start early with 5mil and end up in carriers worth 10bil. That's no inflation there, it's just risk vs reward. But many ppl think it's inflation.

 

Kestrel (T1 frig) - 1 year of market data from jita (biggest trade hub)

https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/602

 

Paladin (T2 marauder) - 1 year of market data from jita (biggest trade hub)

https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/market/link/10000002/28659

 

Prices are pretty stable, spikes are only people messing with the market or because that ship is prime doctrine of some big alliance. There could be a war too thus people producing less because they focus on defense.

 

 

NQ will test this for sure once markets are introduced - then they just need to balance sinks/faucets and watch it.

 

Like I said earlier, you clearly see the massive inflation in EVE when you compare the price of NPC "rare drop" modules. Those modules enter the market very slowly, so more and more money chases them as the money supply increases much faster than the supply of those modules does.

 

The huge competition between player manufacturers very effectively keeps the price of player-made ships and modules low.

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OK.. will jump in on more serious note then.

 

Money is very primitive invention but happened our world operates on this concept and it got to our minds so badly that we simply cannot see anymore that it all comes down to resources.

Money is only an artificial thing to transfer a value of one good for another. But ultimately comes down to... resources.

 

So, I wouldn't be worry about money itself. Inflation deflation you guys sounds like you want to be a banks or run some shady economy businesses in DU based on RL scenarios.

 

This is a game after all and will run as a simplified economic model.

 

It all comes down to demand for resources. If you remove yourself for a moment from money situation... people in DU will need resources to build stuff. Either is a death star or little idea for personal craft. They will dictate demand for it. People want it here and now. So the only thing that slowing them down and make them spend money to save time is the fact surveying and mining itself can be slow operation. In infinite universe when it takes 2 days to travel to next body in the solar system and 2 weeks to next solar system when you running out of some resource that definitely will take care of market needs.

 

What people need resources for? To build whatever they can imagine for sure. But those things serve a purpose. Control, power, territory, domination and ultimately leads to war.

 

War is the way to waste resources that leads to.. more demand for it! You need to rebuild, search for new places and this thing can keep going forever.

 

Now, once you are attached to the money.. you are screwed. You will get cough in waves of grater demand or supply waves.

But when you are attached to resources itself, in infinite universe... it doesn't matter. You need x amount of steel to build your Y battleship. It is constant. Even if there is 10 players left in DU as long as they willing to play that variable will not change for them.

 

It is for money makers that becomes a problem. 

 

Again money is so 21st century, join Homeless! :D. We don't need money, we need resources.

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