Jump to content
KurockNotabi

Pay-2-Win: Does it have a definition at all?

Recommended Posts

@mrjacobean and @Lethys replies pretty much cover all the main points. To summarize: Anything a DAC can get you, you can get in game in another way (e.g. Diplomacy). DAC's don't create resources from nothing. The resources have to exist in game already and be in a decently near proximity to be useful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, mrjacobean said:

* 'paying to win' is the act of throwing money at something to do something. P2W mechanics are built for this exact purpose, but other mechanics can be used to achieve the same effect. DACs can be used to do this, but they are not a pay to win mechanic, since it wasn't built for the exact purpose of allowing those with money to win easier. It's purpose is to allow those either without money or without time to play the game, which after all is a plus since: players = content.

Which is exactly what I have said!

 

DACs are not p2w, DACs have the potential to be p2w.

 

So, as DACs can be turned into p2w, I suggested ways to make this more difficult, and if possible to prevent that altogether. Which frankly is highly unlikely, but it doesn't hurt to try

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Lethys said:

So let's assume both are on the same planet.

The normal guild would just mine, produce, build - everything on their territory, protected by shields. Standard DU tactic.

The whales would need to buy dacs, possibly with an alt, sell them On the market (which may be far away!). They now have money. Great. They need resources.....

So they send a convoy to the market - buy resources, load them into the trucks, have to organize a defensive force, fly back to their territory and then start building.

 

I have nothing against regulations, in fact they need to regulate that market as dacs are the index for economy. 

 

It's not that easy in DU to just condemn dac as p2w, because there are many many other factors you have to consider like: markets, sell orders of resources, economic growth of markets and Minerals, supply of minerals, location of markets, pirate threats in that area, intelligence of the player, demand of dac (yeah, you stillshould haven't answered that),...

 

 

 

As I said, numerous mechanics in DU will make it difficult for the DAC to become p2w, but the (small) potential is still there. As such I just suggested to regulate the DAC market to make this even more difficult. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

I am glad that we agree that the DAC market would be beneficial to be regulated

 

PS

 

I don't understand what part I haven't answered!

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Phaethonas said:

So, as DACs can be turned into p2w, I suggested ways to make this more difficult, and if possible to prevent that altogether. Which frankly is highly unlikely, but it doesn't hurt to try

However, it is not necessary to do so. The damage trying to improve the system will cause and the effort put into improving it outweighs the benefit of trying. From a business standpoint, its not a risk worth taking and from a game-play perspective, it won't improve anything noticeable. In fact, with the way the economy works (e.g. non-respawning resources), the chances of abuse are so low that there is no point trying to lower them more. Instead, try to look at other aspects of the game that could be improve in such a way as to be profitable. For example, what about the bounty system, or researching new technology...

 

P.S. You can't kill all bacteria without killing the thing it's on...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, mrjacobean said:

However, it is not necessary to do so. The damage trying to improve the system will cause and the effort put into improving it outweighs the benefit of trying. From a business standpoint, its not a risk worth taking and from a game-play perspective, it won't improve anything noticeable. In fact, with the way the economy works (e.g. non-respawning resources), the chances of abuse are so low that there is no point trying to lower them more. Instead, try to look at other aspects of the game that could be improve in such a way as to be profitable. For example, what about the bounty system, or researching new technology...

 

P.S. You can't kill all bacteria without killing the thing it's on...

 

No it is not necessary to do so. But if you don't you will have a system that can be turned easily to p2w. Now will this p2w element determine the outcome of wars? No-one knows, but my estimation (judging from other games) is that it will.

 

Pay special attention here that I distinguish how easily DAC can be turned to p2w (which will be very much so without any regulation), and the effect it will have (e.g. "big", "small", "will determine conflicts" etc).

 

Those said, I will point two things;

 

1) Regulating the DAC market correctly will not hurt the game what-so-ever. Think about it, what is the purpose of the DAC? The answer is for players who don't want to pay for subscription time with real money, to have an alternative. If all these people get their DAC then the DAC system is not hurt. Regulations, not only may not affect that negatively, but also could affect it positively. For example, imagine that the various restrictions, overall, could guarantee that the DACs won't be stockpiled,  but instead reach those who want to buy their sub time in-game! And this is possible.

2) You wanna talk business stand point? OK, let's do that. What do you think will happen when DU launches and people start abusing the DAC system? As I said earlier it is very easy to do so; You buy 10 DACs for 180 euro and you make a shit ton of quanta (did I spell that right?). Now depending the severity of this (e.g. how much more powerful the person or the organization that traded DAC in order to get quanta, is) people who are not p2winners won't like it. The moment a conflict between two medium sized organizations is won because the winning organization bought quanta via the DAC exchange, people will quit the game! And as I said before, DU is not EVE nor WoW to survive something like that. Most people don't like p2w. When DAC turns p2w, even on a medium severity, people will leave the game. So, please do tell me, that there is no need to regulate the market, even if you look at this from a business stand point and nothing else!

 

Or do something else, that will move the DAC all the way out of the p2w area. Regulating the DAC market was an idea, nothing more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Phaethonas said:

Or do something else, that will move the DAC all the way out of the p2w area.

I think you might misunderstand the nature of P2W. It's 'value' (effect on the game) can never equal zero. There will always be some presence that those who spend money will get an easier time than those who don't. Even if the DAC system is regulated perfectly (which it won't), there are things, like hiring other people for real money, upgrading your computer's hardware and connection, and using alt accounts, that have a higher P2W 'value' than the DAC system has. If you want to reduce the P2W 'value', then look elsewhere. The only way it would be zero is if the game replaced everything else (like 'The Gam3' by Cosimo Yap).

 

Main point: DAC is an acceptable distance away from P2W for the vast majority of players. Any effect it has can be countered by a reasonable good player.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Phaethonas said:

s I said, numerous mechanics in DU will make it difficult for the DAC to become p2w,

 

9 hours ago, Phaethonas said:

But if you don't you will have a system that can be turned easily to p2w.

What

 

Also: you always come back to the narrative of "player buys quanta and wins the game" which isn't that easy and true, as I explained

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, the casual forum cancer is still present I see.

@Phaethonas

 

You have spewn so much bullshit on this thread, I am genuinely surprised you haven't gone into septic shock already.

 

You can't understand that the "poor people" who buy DACs in-game for in-game money, are the ones who REALLY win the game, not the other way around. The people in EVE who buy PLEX, are Common Joes who got like 1 day or half that a week to play, but a lot of money, so they buy PLEX with IRL money and sell it for currency on someoen who has no life but a lot of in-game money, so the Common Joe can afford to buy chepa expendanble ships to go out and have some 1vs1 action in PvP. 

And guess from whome those Common Joes buy ships with the money they earned from their PLEX? 

That's right, the same people who they sold their PLEX to just a few moments ago. 

So, since we establsihed your knowledge of financies is non-existent, you can feel free to stay quiet on subjects you have no experience with.

 

The next segment in in Greek, as homeboy over here is also greek.

@Phaethonas

 

Σταμάτα να ντροπιάζεις την Ελληνική κοινότητα στα forums, εδραιώνεις το στερεότυπο του κλαρινογαμπρού Ελληνάρα που δεν έχει ιδέα από οικονομικά αλλά συνεχίζει να ωρύεται ότι έχει δίκαιο. Δεν έχεις δίκιο, είσαι μέρος του προβλήματος και το μόνο που κάνεις είναι να στιγματίζεις μια ολόκληρη κοινότητα.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 16/09/2017 at 0:07 AM, Phaethonas said:

Also, I want my game p2w free thank you very much.

 

So, since in your opinion DU is P2W and as you state you want your game to not be P2W, how are you here when the mechanic of DACs has been established and know for a long time and you can really only have come into the game while knowing this, especially when DACs are part of the backers 'rewards'?

 

Oh.. wait, you are not a backer. So again, why  are you here exactly? As I see it you are only here to argue your (IMO) nonsense opinion for the sake of argument as you claim there's (plenty) of games that do not offer what you consider to be P2W. You know what, there's a word for the likes of yourself and it generally is pointless to feed the likes of you so I'll just leave it at that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

So, since in your opinion DU is P2W and as you state you want your game to not be P2W, how are you here when the mechanic of DACs has been established and know for a long time and you can really only have come into the game while knowing this, especially when DACs are part of the backers 'rewards'?

 

Oh.. wait, you are not a backer. So again, why  are you here exactly? As I see it you are only here to argue your (IMO) nonsense opinion for the sake of argument as you claim there's (plenty) of games that do not offer what you consider to be P2W. You know what, there's a word for the likes of yourself and it generally is pointless to feed the likes of you so I'll just leave it at that.

I am somewhat dismayed that people are reduced to their forum/pledge titles.

This forum is intended to provide the opportunity to ask questions and to get to know the future players. But with this bevahiour... I'm not sure if we get this done.

 

About the topic:
As long as you can pay monthly fees with DAC, it is still no p2w, everything else will be seen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Paying RL money for ingame advantage is a standard feature in most modern MMO's. 

 

In reality, it has always been a feature in MMO's, it just used to be "illegal" previously (i.e. buying "gold" from third-party gold-sellers or buying rare weapons on EBay).

 

Things like PLEX and DAC are relatively benign, because it spreads the "advantage" around a bit, so it's easier to justify.

 

Player A buys DAC from player B with ingame money. Player A saves themselves some RL expenditure on the monthly sub, while player B gains a chunk of game cash to increase their purchasing power ingame. Player A is happy to give player B an advantage in game play, because player A gets to play for "free", which is more important to them than being financially powerful in the game world.

 

Let's face it, nobody would buy PLEX and DAC for RL money if there wasn't an advantage to be gained ! :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@NanoDot

 

You confuse "benefit" with "advantage".

Having dental insurance is a benefit, it doesn't give your teeth the advantage of being able to chew through steel.

 

Yes, DAC/PLEX have a benefit to them, or nobody would buy them and it's a feature WoW adopted i nthe form of WoW tokens. Is WoW P2W? Cause the best gear in the game drops or is earned in high-end PvP rankings - which you can't get unless you are skilled. So people in WoW who buy Tokens to sell for in-game money, are people who - again - have no time to waste on grinding dailies to buy enchants / potions / flasks / glyphs for raids.

Same thing is for DAC. It's a convenience, not P2W. You pay a person in-game with a gamecard in exchange for in-game money. For all intents and purposes, the person who pays with in-game money for their gametime is the one getting the better end of the bargain.

 

@blazemonger

 

Backer or not, a concern is a concern and should be heard of.

However, my countryman Phaethonas, should actually stop talking, not because he's not a backer, but because he's argueing with no real facts to back it up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The ultimate advantage in buying Plex in Eve from someone who sells it for ingame currency is the chance to avoid grinding several billion isk for pvp and skill books.

 

This is in a game with more than a decade of content and history.

 

Dac in a brand new environment with limited player base, content and mined resources offers a much smaller potential to avoid grinding so isn't worth as much, especially if the stocks of what you need is too far away or non existent in general.

 

People and the devs need to ensure they don't get too carried away with the market opportunity as having finite resources is going to be strange as the habited zones get turned into barren wastelands and people live further away from everyone else to have some sort of buffer zone, or the quantities are so large that finite doesn't much.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any system that allows payment of RL money for an in-game advantage has the potential to become p2w. Am I worried that this will happen in DU? No. Simply because NQ listens to its players and the players that have posted in this topic would be among the first to point out anything that may negatively effect the game. (Just be a little nicer about it guys ;) )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

@NanoDot

 

You confuse "benefit" with "advantage".

Having dental insurance is a benefit, it doesn't give your teeth the advantage of being able to chew through steel.

 

Yes, DAC/PLEX have a benefit to them, or nobody would buy them and it's a feature WoW adopted i nthe form of WoW tokens. Is WoW P2W? Cause the best gear in the game drops or is earned in high-end PvP rankings - which you can't get unless you are skilled. So people in WoW who buy Tokens to sell for in-game money, are people who - again - have no time to waste on grinding dailies to buy enchants / potions / flasks / glyphs for raids.

Same thing is for DAC. It's a convenience, not P2W. You pay a person in-game with a gamecard in exchange for in-game money. For all intents and purposes, the person who pays with in-game money for their gametime is the one getting the better end of the bargain.

 

 

 

Yes, I agree that it's very "convenient" to be able to increase your ingame purchasing power by spending some RL cash !

How else could you gain a little extra "edge" over other players in the market auctions, for instance ? ;)

 

"These are not the advantages you're looking for..."

 

PLEX/DAC work because some players feel that saving the monthly sub fee is more important than being wealthy ingame. The PLEX/DAC sellers see it the other way around, of course. The buyers and sellers just have different priorities, which means both groups believe they're getting "the better end of the bargain". As long as both sides are happy with the outcome, all is well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@NanoDot

 

It's a subject that you got to experience to see if it's true. I personally have lost more than 15 billion in isk when it comes to ship in EVE, I never once said "omg, the other person had XYZ I can't have due to PLEX". Nor I ever received a message saying "omg noob, you bought shit with PLEX, you p2w scum".

Skill topples gear in EVE's PvP system. If you suck at reacting to what happens you can have a 2 billion isk ship vs a 500 million ship, it won't change the outcome, your 2 billion ship will just go up in flames. Same will end up going down in dU.

Will people try to "win" by buying a lot of DACs? Sure they will, but once the markets adjust, they will end up with LESS money, due to price adjusttments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

@NanoDot

 

...
Skill topples gear in EVE's PvP system. If you suck at reacting to what happens you can have a 2 billion isk ship vs a 500 million ship, it won't change the outcome, your 2 billion ship will just go up in flames. Same will end up going down in dU.

Provided the player in the PLEX-financed 2 billion isk ship isn't also highly skilled, in which case you're toast. But that's not something we want to think about, is it, because it spoils the fairytale... ;) 

 

Only n00bs and the clueless will sell DAC for ingame money, so there's nothing to worry about !

 

Quote

Will people try to "win" by buying a lot of DACs? Sure they will, but once the markets adjust, they will end up with LESS money, due to price adjusttments.

Who cares ?

A skilled player will turn that early cashflow advantage into a significant ingame power base. The fact that they could have earned ten times more Quanta by selling their DAC 3 months after launch is irrelevant, it's just a cost of business. By then, their ingame power will in all likelihood more than compensate for the perceived loss in RL terms. Besides, nothing stops them from selling more DAC at the higher exchange rate... other than their RL disposable income.

 

The competition is not over who has more money in their RL wallets after X months, it's over who has more power in the game after X months.

 

Selling DAC is a way to transfer wealth from other players to yourself without involving any ingame effort. You don't have to perform services for them, or rob them, or scam them, or outwit them with clever market deals. You just simply buy their Quanta from them indirectly with RL cash. No PVP required...

 

I don't object to PLEX/DAC, but I have no illusions as to what they represent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

 

@blazemonger

 

Backer or not, a concern is a concern and should be heard of.

However, my countryman Phaethonas, should actually stop talking, not because he's not a backer, but because he's argueing with no real facts to back it up.

 

Raising a question/concern is not the issue here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@NanoDot

 

Yet, noone ever in EVE won a war cause they had more IRL money. In-game money, sure, but never due to IRL money.

How do we know? Cause the market would flip and burn if people thrw thosuands of dollars in-game to get an edge as an alliacne. Wea re talking hundred of thosuadns of dolalrs to run an alliance if you were to do it via PLEX.

It's a teamgame in the end.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

@NanoDot

 

Yet, noone ever in EVE won a war cause they had more IRL money. In-game money, sure, but never due to IRL money.

How do we know? Cause the market would flip and burn if people thrw thosuands of dollars in-game to get an edge as an alliacne. Wea re talking hundred of thosuadns of dolalrs to run an alliance if you were to do it via PLEX.

It's a teamgame in the end.

In truth, we have no idea what the effect of PLEX is on EVE's warfare, because we don't know where the cash redistributed via PLEX is going. It may serve to prop-up some marginal empires for years, or perhaps tip the scales in a close battle, but we'll never really know. Perhaps the cash is spread around so broadly that it has no nett effect on anything. There's so much active ISK in the EVE economy by now that I doubt PLEX sales move any significant % of it around.

 

PLEX arrived in EVE around 5 years after launch iirc. By then, power bases were already well-established, so changing the balance of power purely by spending on PLEX would probably have been prohibitively expensive by then (as it would be now).

 

But in DU, the DAC will be a part of game play from day 1, so it's influence will undoubtedly be a factor in establishing the initial power bases. Any org that supplements their ingame activities with DAC sales will have more market clout than an org that doesn't. Will it be a significant advantage ? Who knows, but it will undeniably be an advantage.

 

PLEX and DAC are a "force multiplier", not a replacement for ingame activity. It's a means to increase your wealth in addition to the increase you will have due to normal game play. It gives you an edge, not an "I win" button. How well you use that edge is what counts.

 

There are countless examples of games nowadays where some players spend thousands of dollars per month to gain advantages for themselves or their guilds/clans. It's a fact of modern online gaming. I can't see any reason why DU would be exempt from the phenomenon.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@NanoDot

 

Still, you miss the point, unlike EVE, you DO NOT need money in DU, as the limited resources CAN be used as currency.

If an organisation stands on a mountain of Unobtanium-1337 and they DENY to sell you so they can use to make top tier ships and be strogner, your DACs mean nothing. THEY control the price of the DAC, not you - at least in their territory.

We do know the impact of PLEX in EVE, people who study the in-game markets keep track of how where the PLEX is sold and is delviered to. And still, NOBODY ever won wars due to PLEX, no alliance leader said "spend money on PLEX or we'll lose". 

For the longest time in EVE, the CFC were the richest and most powerful coalition in the game. Why? NOT because of PLEX, but because they did market schems, buying all ships of one kind, while manipulating the palyerbase to buy said ships - which is what marekting is to begin with. They also had a monopoly on Technetium - which was used to make top-end ships.

How did CCP react to the CFC's domiance of the market? Not with reducing how much PLEX can be in the markets, but by changing the entire resource system so the CFC would not be permanent kings due to their marekt lockdown - which led to one of the most ninfamous wars in eVE, the Fountain war.

Do you know what people didn't say through all of those battles? " Oh man, if we sink 1000 USD in PLEX, we will win ".

1000 USD back then was 50 Billion Isk. You may think "that's P2W", truth is, 50 Billion can  afford a solo player 10 Thanatos carriers, but 10 Thanatos carriers - for a WAR between coalitions of thousands of players - mean nothing, not to mention no sane individual ever sunk 1000 USD in EVE Online and "won". 

 

Your scenarios are at best outlandish. 

Also, anyone who will sell DACs on day-1 or month-1, is stupid. The game will take quite a while post launch to get going as of money in circulation. Those who will establish mining operations at first will be the ones to "win" the early game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

@NanoDot

 

Still, you miss the point, unlike EVE, you DO NOT need money in DU, as the limited resources CAN be used as currency.

...

I didn't "miss the point", I just see the bigger picture.

 

As far as we know, in DU money only serves to provide commercial liquidity...  and a 100% risk-free way to store wealth.

 

Having access to a nice pile of money has some advantages though, it makes you more agile in the market AND reduces your risk (resource stocks can be stolen or destroyed, money cannot). Therefore money will always be highly desirable.

 

Resources in DU are only limited in a given area, the supply is limitless in reality, because the amount of systems in the galaxy is "infinite". Resources HAVE to be infinite whatever happens, because if the resources REALLY run out, DU immediately stops working as a game. A single group can only temporarily monopolise a resource in DU, players will just go and find that resource in a new system and make a killing supplying it to desperate customers.

 

As for selling DAC to get an early advantage, you say players will be stupid to do that, I say they'll be stupid NOT to do it. It will be interesting to see who's theory prevails ! :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/17/2017 at 0:17 AM, mrjacobean said:

I think you might misunderstand the nature of P2W. It's 'value' (effect on the game) can never equal zero. There will always be some presence that those who spend money will get an easier time than those who don't. Even if the DAC system is regulated perfectly (which it won't), there are things, like hiring other people for real money, upgrading your computer's hardware and connection, and using alt accounts, that have a higher P2W 'value' than the DAC system has. If you want to reduce the P2W 'value', then look elsewhere. The only way it would be zero is if the game replaced everything else (like 'The Gam3' by Cosimo Yap).

 

Main point: DAC is an acceptable distance away from P2W for the vast majority of players. Any effect it has can be countered by a reasonable good player.

 

Well for starters if you hire other people for real money to manage and play your account you are violating most games' TOS, which is a bannable offense (if you are caught of course). If this is what you mean by "hire people", and not let's say, the "meta game" that EVE has.

 

Even so, the more important thing is that the DAC as is, is not an acceptable distance away from  p2w for the vast majority of players. And truth be told, neither of us has any real evidence on their statements, like an official and representative poll. So we won't find out till some months after launch (assuming that the DAC remains as it is), in which case people will speak their minds in public forums, social media and the like. And even then, I am sure that many people will still disagree on the matter, but unfortunately for them, reality will kick in. If indeed the DAC system (as is now) proves to be considered p2w by the vast majority of players, then they will simply leave and DU will die. Which will be unfortunate. As so many times I have said, DU is neither WoW, nor EVE to survive such a hit.

 

Although I don't have hard evidence for my statement, that the vast majority of MMO players associate the PLEX system with p2w, like a representative poll, I do have some arguments; a) the moment crowfall announced its PLEX version (called VIP membership) and its version of skill injectors (called skill tomes), some of its more hardcore fans/supporters rushed in defense of crowfall "assuring" people that it is not p2w. Even before anyone suggesting that it is p2w!! Hence, we understand that people associate p2w negatively and that people associate these mechanics with p2w, and b ) what has been written about EVE. And there is so much ink there. People have argued in both sides, but as to which one is prevailing, that is to the eye of the beholder I suppose, as long as there is no representative poll among the MMO community, something of course which is really hard to do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/17/2017 at 9:06 AM, Lethys said:

 

What

 

Also: you always come back to the narrative of "player buys quanta and wins the game" which isn't that easy and true, as I explained

 

I have made a distinction between the effect of the DAC and how easily it is going to be to turn it into p2w. Taking quotations from different comments (and different contextes) is natural to confuse you.

 

Let me explain;

 

People will be able to turn DAC into p2w easily cause they can simply buy it with real money and get relatively easily quanta for it. Yes, they will wait for them to be sold and yes in DU they will need to be near the market. But that is relatively easy.

 

The other is the severity of p2w. So, OK now someone made 1 million quanta fairly easy, how much power did he acquire? You are correct, ""player buys quanta and wins the game" is not that easy, and that is the "second easy". Perhaps "easy" is not the best word after all (despite being used by the both of us), but instead "weak"/"strong" is better.

 

So, the DAC is "easily" abused as a p2w element, but it is a "medium" p2w element in its severity, because of the DU gameplay.

 

As such, if we make it "difficult" to be abused, combined with its "medium" p2w potential in severity, the DAC is becoming almost no p2w or as mrjacobean put it,  it gets to "an acceptable distance away from P2W for the vast majority of players".

 

Now my suggestion to regulate the DAC market revolves around this "difficulty". Make the DAC more difficult to be abused and used out of its purpose, as a p2w element.

 

Lastly, the severity won't be "weak" or anything near that cause to put it simply, quanta seems that will have real value. It won't be like SWTOR's credits for example.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...