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Black Market, Illegal goods, Drugs, etc...

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So I already browsed the referenced link, and instead of posting to an older post decided to try this conversation from a different angle.

 

Assuming the game mechanics allow it eventually there is a good chance we will have a black market associated with illegal goods. Illegal goods in one area may be legal in another depending on the organization that governs the area. The government decisions to permit one substance as legal versus illegal will have various consequences, which can add additional content and suspense to playing the game.

 

It would be fun to find/manufacture/procure/obtain said substances and have that risk/reward feature that may result in large rewards at the risk of loosing your ship or a steep fine, etc...

 

This will also have a balancing feature where the organization may establish basic bounties on those in possession on illegal goods.

 

I know that there is a lot of passion behind this topic, so please provide constructive idea generation, or perhaps this will help you spawn a completely new idea in a new post. :)

 

 

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Its pretty hard to make people *fear* drugs on a online game. Why would a cooperation ban it?

 

 

side effects that linger more depending on usage, with cure being costly material wise. Thus, to avoid paying for your members' detox, just ban drugs on your marketplace.

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side effects that linger more depending on usage, with cure being costly material wise. Thus, to avoid paying for your members' detox, just ban drugs on your marketplace.

Isn't that sorta the user's fault?

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Isn't that sorta the user's fault?

Isn't Medicare a Politics thing? If my org doesn't provide me with certain commodities... why would I even bother with its politics?

 

You see now the complexity of having drugs that have staggering effects when not active on the user. I made a suggestion on this on my Trauma mechanics thread. Check it out if you want, it's in there somewhere.

 

 

Black markets can work without drugs, it's just that drugs themselves - with an expensive detox medicine - add a whole new dimension to the game's politics. Black markets' main point is to evade taxation, the secondary function is to circulate and deliver difficult to obtain goods.

 

If I manage to sneak materials for explosives past a city's checkpoint and into it, then the Black Market works. It's that simple.

 

The game is not geared towards children, that's been stated by the Devs. I guess it comes down to if NQ is planning on letting people RP as junkies .. errr, whatever the politically correct term for a drug user is.

 

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Good commentary so far... also try to expand your thoughts beyond drugs... there are many other items that a governing body (organization) may want to make illegal in their jurisdiction, e.g. (explosives/certain weapons, embargoed goods, perhaps exotic goods...we will be in another part of the galaxy, let your imagination go wild.) :)

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Good commentary so far... also try to expand your thoughts beyond drugs... there are many other items that a governing body (organization) may want to make illegal in their jurisdiction, e.g. (explosives/certain weapons, embargoed goods, perhaps exotic goods...we will be in another part of the galaxy, let your imagination go wild.) :)

That's what smugglers are for. To get explosives where explosives shouldn't be allowed. You know.. for "fireworks" and "excitement". Or... you know, a death squad in general. These bombs won't blow themselves up.

 

In fact, if people don't figure out a proper and safe way of black market delivery without sacrificing a toon in the process via ban, I will be thoroughly disappointed.

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Beyond the side effects that would (hopefully) accompany drug usage, I can see organizations banning them just for the principle of the thing.

 

The tricky part of black markets, regardless of what you are selling, will be networking. As a seller, you want to sell your deviously-obtained goods, but you don't want to unknowingly sell them to a police officer.

 

Vice-versa, as a buyer, you don't want to inadvertently attempt to buy illegal goods from an officer performing a sting operation.

 

So how will you know the difference? Reputation I suppose, but even that can be shaky, since if a dealer gets a "good" enough reputation, you can bet the authorities will be lining up a raid on his stash!

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Without laws enforced by AI, there won't be any smuggling.

 

You cant prohibit a player from purchasing or owning a specific item.

 

VERY few players in an org will want to spend their time patroling some border as customs enforcement

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Without laws enforced by AI, there won't be any smuggling.

 

You cant prohibit a player from purchasing or owning a specific item.

 

VERY few players in an org will want to spend their time patroling some border as customs enforcement

You are right, very few people would want to catch someone, carrying a very small but expensive cargo, in a ship meant for speed not combat. No matter what Han Solo may had you believe, spacetrucks / freighters don't have that much firepower or protection.

 

Nobody would ever want to catch the lottery. You stand correct.

 

Oh wait... you thought of it as a job. I am betting people will line up for customs enforcement just for the privilege of shutting down illegal trade... and that bit about "civil forfeiture".

 

But, oh well, what the heck do I know about people and what makes them tick...

 

Cheers!

 

P.S. : Smugglers are first and foremost out for avoiding taxation and brokers' fees. And to deliver death squads, like the world's sneakiest Uber drivers.

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You are right, very few people would want to catch someone, carrying a very small but expensive cargo, in a ship meant for speed not combat. No matter what Han Solo may had you believe, spacetrucks / freighters don't have that much firepower or protection.

 

Nobody would ever want to catch the lottery. You stand correct.

 

Oh wait... you thought of it as a job. I am betting people will line up for customs enforcement just for the privilege of shutting down illegal trade... and that bit about "civil forfeiture".

 

But, oh well, what the heck do I know about people and what makes them tick...

 

Cheers!

 

P.S. : Smugglers are first and foremost out for avoiding taxation and brokers' fees. And to deliver death squads, like the world's sneakiest Uber drivers.

Really hope there is a new stations or something to tune and listen too to pass time

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Really hope there is a new stations or something to tune and listen too to pass time

If it's a system with a trade hub, you bet people will actually try to slip past to deliver goods without going through the marketplace -- that is taxed by the owners of it. Music stations won't be necessary :P  . 

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What org in their right mind would outlaw the possession of specific items.

 

Therefore no contraband.

 

What kind of laws are you going to pass to force specific player behaviour.

 

All your doing is coming up with an excuse to blow the other player away. Just do it and steal their cargo. Stop being a pussy by justifying the act.

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You're describing a P2P gankfest.

 

Thats not smuggling

 

How is he describing that at all? You want to get maximum profit out of your products, and you're trying to sneak it passed the TU's border patrols guarding their home system. If successful, you get to the black market on the homeworld's moon and sell for maximum profit. Considering that people going to a black market in such a heavily patrolled area are probably desperate for the item you can mark it up a bit too. This isn't about PvP, or P2P (who are you giving money to in this situation?), it's about being clever and evading superior enemies.

 

What org in their right mind would outlaw the possession of specific items.

 

Therefore no contraband.

 

What kind of laws are you going to pass to force specific player behaviour.

 

All your doing is coming up with an excuse to blow the other player away. Just do it and steal their cargo. Stop being a pussy by justifying the act.

 

Organisation X has decreed that only merchants registered with its new Trade Agency will be allowed to transport weapons throughout their territory and sell it in their markets. The taxes are lenient, but the heavy price for registering increases all costs on weapons in the territory. A clever smuggler can pass weapons around while pretending to cargo rice between planets, make a profit, and have buyers who won't have to pay as much.

 

It's not going to be "drugs are bad, m'kay, we've banned them". It's going to be organisations' bureaucracies trying to squeeze more money out of their economy, and people who want to combine the danger of espionage with the profits of trading to make some money.

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Outlawing a product in your territory wont create a black market and increase its price.

 

All the org is acomplishing is depriving itself from salestax. I'll just buy it somewhere else at a cheaper price.

 

Why buy at an inflated price when I can purchase the same product cheaper in the neighboring territory?

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Limyaael described a pretty good reason for a black market to exist, in my opinion. It doesn't necessarily mean the goods themselves are illegal, ( although they could be,) just that the seller avoided paying the proper fees.

Yes, you could always buy it elsewhere....unless it's a rare item or material, or you are hunted.

 

Honestly, there are all sorts of rules and laws that will surface as the game progresses, some will work, others won't.

But let's not dismiss the creativity of some people to find ways around them.

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Outlawing a product in your territory wont create a black market and increase its price.

 

All the org is acomplishing is depriving itself from salestax. I'll just buy it somewhere else at a cheaper price.

 

Why buy at an inflated price when I can purchase the same product cheaper in the neighboring territory?

 

Because people are LAZY AS FUCK

 

I was the prime seller of drones in Dodixie (~3,5million isk) in eve online for some time. I squelched all other players, diminishing their profit and got my own drones sold. 5 Jumps away those drones were 2million isk cheaper (travel time ~5min). I charged them DOUBLE the price and they happily paid me.

 

In every game at a certain point when people stop caring about money because they have enough people get lazy. They don't want to waste gametime on getting a gun cheaper when they buy those in a nearby system. They want that gun NOW and they want to get on with it. That's why Black Markets will prosper if some org has a fierce grip on economy. Bring those goods to the players and they will pay you (because as you said: people are greedy little bastards and always want the best price) but yet again are lazy.

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Because people are LAZY AS FUCK

 

And it's more than just this. Travel in DU isn't as easy as Eve. Or at least as easy as other people have made it seem.

 

Getting to another system will involve:

1) Starship capable of warptravel

2) A crew for said ship (I doubt if you're going to get a lot of cargo that it will be a tiny soloable starfighter)

3) Stargates between the origin and target systems (especially relevant if you live in an isolated empire that restricts international travel)

 

You might want to buy the restricted gun from a foreign system, but it'll involve you getting out of your own system and smuggling the weapon back yourself. Isn't it just easier to pay someone else?

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You're describing a P2P gankfest.

 

Thats not smuggling

Smugglers are pirates, in the sense that they work by screwing people over tax-wise. Nobody is gonna gank the trader coming and moving from a stargate, only the ones popping up fro a jump out of nowhere inside a system. Those guys, are smugglers.

 

 

Running a gauntlet of pirates and pk'ers isnt the same thing as smuggling.

Runninga gauntlet of border patrols, is though smuggling. If you take taxation and regulations off, border patrols and pirates are the one and the same, only of them work for you, the others are freelance.

 

Or you thought the original pirates were anything but that? They were spanish, british and any other naval officers who realised they can inteercept enemy countries' galleys and make a far higher profit than by doing it for the crowns.

 

Welcome to the real world, where people are complex.

 

 

 

What org in their right mind would outlaw the possession of specific items.

 

Therefore no contraband.

 

What kind of laws are you going to pass to force specific player behaviour.

 

All your doing is coming up with an excuse to blow the other player away. Just do it and steal their cargo. Stop being a pussy by justifying the act.

As you ignored my first post, go ahead and re-read it. You make drugs have heavy withdrawl effects, then you add a cure that's highly costly and time-consuming to produce, then you got factions who are like "yeah, don't use drugs, cause you'll be far less effective when a battle comes and the withdrawl debuffs last for weeks" . But hey, don't stop common sense ruining your jam man. And you are wrong, I don't need excuses to blow others away. :D

 

 

 

Outlawing a product in your territory wont create a black market and increase its price.

 

All the org is acomplishing is depriving itself from salestax. I'll just buy it somewhere else at a cheaper price.

 

Why buy at an inflated price when I can purchase the same product cheaper in the neighboring territory?

You seem quite disconnected from reality, to think that Black Markets are physically based. That's like asking the cops to bust down your door and drag you to prison. Black markets are just a network - an org in DU's case. Smugglers are just the delivery boys. If you sell stell at 1000 spacebucks the m3, and I can fetch steel at 500 spacebucks the m3 on a black market, becuase the black market guys bought it from pirates who looked to pawn loot quick so they don't have to worry about upseting production, I will get it from a black marketeer just to avoid increasing MY costs. 

 

Also, you still confuse drugs prices and drug trafficing, with smuggling. Volumes is where's at, not quality. If a region is in need of, let's say, implants, because the local twerp is selling them at 400% their price and the same guy with the monopoly has guys on his payroll to check the borders for anyone SMUGGLING in implants, and I succeed at getting cheaper implants in the guy's turf's circulation, I won, I got market shareholding, and I just dealt a one-two on the guy's face. 

 

That's called economic warfare by the way. Oh, yeah, I'm gonna just shred markets like that xD, just so I see how station trader adapt, it's my favourite passtime in EVE right now.

 

 

 

How is he describing that at all? You want to get maximum profit out of your products, and you're trying to sneak it passed the TU's border patrols guarding their home system. If successful, you get to the black market on the homeworld's moon and sell for maximum profit. Considering that people going to a black market in such a heavily patrolled area are probably desperate for the item you can mark it up a bit too. This isn't about PvP, or P2P (who are you giving money to in this situation?), it's about being clever and evading superior enemies.

 

 

Organisation X has decreed that only merchants registered with its new Trade Agency will be allowed to transport weapons throughout their territory and sell it in their markets. The taxes are lenient, but the heavy price for registering increases all costs on weapons in the territory. A clever smuggler can pass weapons around while pretending to cargo rice between planets, make a profit, and have buyers who won't have to pay as much.

 

It's not going to be "drugs are bad, m'kay, we've banned them". It's going to be organisations' bureaucracies trying to squeeze more money out of their economy, and people who want to combine the danger of espionage with the profits of trading to make some money.

Also, good sir, nobody in their right mind would build a black market and broadcast where the po-po can bust them. That's not how... any black market works :P They DELIVER goods to you, you don't actually go and meet a merchant.

 

But yes, brokers are the main reason people will be smugglers. Brokers are the authorised traders with said agency - not a merchant, as they are they who sell brokers stuff at bulk prices, there's a difference between the two. So a smuggler, is a merchant or a hauler that circumvents tthe local tradeing conventions.

 

Unlike a merchant, a broker is not limited to physical goods, information can be traded as well, hence why stock-brokers and investors are not quite the same thing.

 

 

 

Because people are LAZY AS FUCK

 

I was the prime seller of drones in Dodixie (~3,5million isk) in eve online for some time. I squelched all other players, diminishing their profit and got my own drones sold. 5 Jumps away those drones were 2million isk cheaper (travel time ~5min). I charged them DOUBLE the price and they happily paid me.

 

In every game at a certain point when people stop caring about money because they have enough people get lazy. They don't want to waste gametime on getting a gun cheaper when they buy those in a nearby system. They want that gun NOW and they want to get on with it. That's why Black Markets will prosper if some org has a fierce grip on economy. Bring those goods to the players and they will pay you (because as you said: people are greedy little bastards and always want the best price) but yet again are lazy.

Lethys-senpai stands correct, through his teachings I just roll in iskies in EVE. :D

 

 

 

And it's more than just this. Travel in DU isn't as easy as Eve. Or at least as easy as other people have made it seem.

 

Getting to another system will involve:

1) Starship capable of warptravel

2) A crew for said ship (I doubt if you're going to get a lot of cargo that it will be a tiny soloable starfighter)

3) Stargates between the origin and target systems (especially relevant if you live in an isolated empire that restricts international travel)

 

You might want to buy the restricted gun from a foreign system, but it'll involve you getting out of your own system and smuggling the weapon back yourself. Isn't it just easier to pay someone else?

Well, one technicality, system-to-system warpdrives are called jump drives as of Sci-Fi nerd conventions :P 

 

Technically, if I deliver blueprint copies, I can deliver them on a star-fighter, like bike couriers in most cities. Add a cloak on that bad boy and you're not risking re-enacting Fallout : New Vegas all over again. In fact, in EVE, frigates and shuttles are used to buy and / or deliver BPCs and BPOs (BluePrint Copies / BluePrint Originals) because of the speed required, with some BluePrint  Copies going for hundreds of millions, that demand a fast ship or a cloaky ship to deliver safely to one's manufacturing facility.

 

What people in general fail to understnad, is that priates, just by being pirates and operating in systems they shouldn't be, will need black markets to live off of, since, you know, they will be blown to bits the moment they show their mug on a market-place. And  I mean, we all know legit businessmen, would ever want to sell at pirates, despite doing that at a profit of not having to deal with taxes.

 

I mean... they are pirates, so there's the risk I guess, but they are depending on you for fuel, ammunitions, repair materials etcetera, so you are covered, as long as you don't overstay your welcome (or inflate the prices).

 

But on the flip-side, hey, they are pirates, so they got to sell at a lower price than whatever is on the market to compete (as they have no production to upset on their price).

 

 

 

Also, Emergent Undercover Cops. Pretend to be a pirate, to catch the black market agents in your system.

 

And I know what nay-sayers will say. "That's bullcrap, that won't happen."

 

Worse things have gone down in EVE. Undercover Cops infiltrating a black market is the most logical thing to happen.

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This game is going to be SO easy to dominate if everyone is so economically illiterate.

 

Guess you don't want to enlighten us eve online market alt noobs then? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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This game is going to be SO easy to dominate if everyone is so economically illiterate.

You are living proof of that. You just can't understand that tax evasion is the prime objective of a black market. Money laundering is to whitewash said black money, in a tax form of mitigated taxation as a whole -- because orgs should TAX a player's income as well, not just market transactions.

 

And we haven't even gotten into off-shore dummy corporations and money laundering, if orgs DO tax people and member orgs on their income.

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I think a black market is a great idea to sell things cheaper then the organization market (only if the organization chooses to tax members or the politics control the amount that goods can be sold at) if those two things aren't happening then a black market would be pointless in a game like this one.

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