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What do you guys think about having things like shields?

Like shields not only for ships but for players and buildings as well.

 

Sorry if this topic has already been mentioned.

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What I suggestd was for Territorial Claim Units to be acting like dome force fields to protect a city via a powerful shield, which would require the players to go for a ground assault and fight through the city to get to and deactivate the force field intself. Most people cried by that, because they want Dual to be EVE 2.0. .

As for player shields... no, a ship would be able to project those repellent shield screesn with the same tech that can create artificial gravity, I suggest you read a book by Michio Okaku, or see his show on the same topic of shields, Physics of the Impossible (it's on youtube as well I think). He explains why electromagnetic shields would not work as you expect them to, as they would not allow YOU as well to fire back at whatever is firing at you.

So for a player to have the same gravity tech on his gear, it sounds far-fetched iin my opinion. Even Star Wars with its laser swords chose to let stormtroopers die like flies instead of "shields" on them.


ALTHOUGH, A circular, halo-like hoplon shield with an electromangetic screen to be held on one hand by the player like a riot shiled IS a pretty dandy idea.

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What I suggestd was for Territorial Claim Units to be acting like dome force fields to protect a city via a powerful shield, which would require the players to go for a ground assault and fight through the city to get to and deactivate the force field intself. Most people cried by that, because they want Dual to be EVE 2.0. .

As for player shields... no, a ship would be able to project those repellent shield screesn with the same tech that can create artificial gravity, I suggest you read a book by Michio Okaku, or see his show on the same topic of shields, Physics of the Impossible (it's on youtube as well I think). He explains why electromagnetic shields would not work as you expect them to, as they would not allow YOU as well to fire back at whatever is firing at you.

So for a player to have the same gravity tech on his gear, it sounds far-fetched iin my opinion. Even Star Wars with its laser swords chose to let stormtroopers die like flies instead of "shields" on them.

ALTHOUGH, A circular, halo-like hoplon shield with an electromangetic screen to be held on one hand by the player like a riot shiled IS a pretty dandy idea.

Michio whoever is just a daydreamer who's not even aware of how WW2 technology works.

 

Either way, shields will likely exist the same way they work on EVE and Dust.

 

And they're most likely not going to me EM field based, as the field strength v.s. the projectile mass means they would barely drain, and you could sit for hours whilst being shot at, that is, if you have a field strong enough to stop 69grams moving at M1 over several centimeters. I don't think we should look for scientific justification based on real-life tech in a game where you land enormous spaceships by bashing the surface with them :D

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Michio whoever is just a daydreamer who's not even aware of how WW2 technology works.

 

Either way, shields will likely exist the same way they work on EVE and Dust.

 

And they're most likely not going to me EM field based, as the field strength v.s. the projectile mass means they would barely drain, and you could sit for hours whilst being shot at, that is, if you have a field strong enough to stop 69grams moving at M1 over several centimeters. I don't think we should look for scientific justification based on real-life tech in a game where you land enormous spaceships by bashing the surface with them :D

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michio_Kaku

 

You mean that one of the brightest minds of our generation is just a stupid man? A guy who built an atom masher as a teenager, in his garage and was offered a scholarship by Edward Teller, FATHER OF THE HYDROGEN BOMB, is a guy you out-wit with your mass vs shield logic? Do you even physics bruh? No, right... you must also think that having an invisibility field would allow you to see anyone or anything while it's active as well. Wouldn't be surprised.

 

 

And ships will have collision with the ground, so you'll be a regular customer for ships with your "bash the surface". Also, good luck taking off a world with your one metric megaton ship trying to take off with its flimsy thrusters meant for wide arc-like motions. This is not EVE, this is not a point and click adventure in a 2D space. Ships have mass, mass needs powerful thrusters to budge and thrusters need to be positioned properly. This is a physics based game. While you can build a Titan for sure, don't expect it to land on a planet's surface. Gravity would snap it in half. 

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michio_Kaku

 

You mean that one of the brightest minds of our generation is just a stupid man? A guy who built an atom masher as a teenager, in his garage and was offered a scholarship by Edward Teller, FATHER OF THE HYDROGEN BOMB, is a guy you out-wit with your mass vs shield logic? Do you even physics bruh? No, right... you must also think that having an invisibility field would allow you to see anyone or anything while it's active as well. Wouldn't be surprised.

 

 

And ships will have collision with the ground, so you'll be a regular customer for ships with your "bash the surface". Also, good luck taking off a world with your one metric megaton ship trying to take off with its flimsy thrusters meant for wide arc-like motions. This is not EVE, this is not a point and click adventure in a 2D space. Ships have mass, mass needs powerful thrusters to budge and thrusters need to be positioned properly. This is a physics based game. While you can build a Titan for sure, don't expect it to land on a planet's surface. Gravity would snap it in half. 

 

You're right, but there'll be a limited amount of physics in the game, it's still an mmo, not a singleplayer game. Huge Shields with collisions should be quite heavy in terms of performances, same for mass that may influence at this point the thrusters in a non physic way. And still doesn't solve the problem of being griefed while offline.

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You're right, but there'll be a limited amount of physics in the game, it's still an mmo, not a singleplayer game. Huge Shields with collisions should be quite heavy in terms of performances, same for mass that may influence at this point the thrusters in a non physic way. And still doesn't solve the problem of being griefed while offline.

Read the devblog on LUA scripts mate. JC pointed out everything there. Ships have mass and gravity can drag them down if you get near a planet. As it turns out, you won't be able to lift a 1 metric megaton battleship off the face of a world, yey for space shipyards. If you place the thrusters in the wrong way, ship goes illy-willy and flies like a twerking freshman on the dancefloor.

 

 

 

Is it going to be sci-fi game or prediction, vision of possible future tech game? I'm just curious what wise man would say about main DU tool with micro backpack.

Definitetely not a prediction of future tech. It's mostly sci-fi.

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Read the devblog on LUA scripts mate. JC pointed out everything there. Ships have mass and gravity can drag them down if you get near a planet. As it turns out, you won't be able to lift a 1 metric megaton battleship off the face of a world, yey for space shipyards. If you place the thrusters in the wrong way, ship goes illy-willy and flies like a twerking freshman on the dancefloor.

 

Ye I know, I'm not saying that there'll not be physics, but that will probably be simplified a little

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But sci-fi it is prediction of future tech!!!

Well, it is depending on how you approach it. Star Trek is Sci-fi, it uses realism for the most part and is based around actual concepts of physics and did predict the future on many fronts, one of them being the tricorders, known as cellphones today. It's a true fact of histroy that the first cellphone was inspired by the tricorders.

 

On the other hand, Star Wars is science fantasy, or space fantasy. The concept of lightsabers as "laser-swords" is impossible on so many levels. Death Star's also fantasy, given its destructive power to demolish planets.

 

Battlestar Galactica = Prediction of the future.

 

Firefly = Prediction of the future.

 

There's a fine line between the two ideas of sci-fi. And unless Dual doesn't go for, at least, newtonian physics, it's space fantasy to me :P

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Ye I know, I'm not saying that there'll not be physics, but that will probably be simplified a little

Well, in the Devblog JC clearly states that there'll be an actual force on the thrusters' part, so we deal with newtonian aspects for the most part, and the number of the vertical thrusters will have to be managed accordingly to a ship's mass, if you want to take off a planet. Otherwise we'll have to opt for spaceships that cannot land on planets but stay in orbit. Yey for super-carriers,shuttles and ground assault killzones? :P

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Yeah, shields must be in this game. But im wondering, how will be realized. There will be a hit points, or some more complicated system? 

Depends. The game is target and lock-on, which means you have to keep a target in your crosshair to lock them. How the particle effects will work or if there will be cluster of hits recognition on each ship, it's up for debate. And given the turrets cannot shoot at something they can't turn and face, it's safe to assume an AoE "area of effect" witchcraft trickery, like WoW's AoE spells work, will be in place to emulate voxel destruction on ships during firing runs. Prepare to get stop-watches people, you'll need them for firing runs :P

 

 

So yeah, shields could be in the game, scaled to your power core(s) to match power output on them.

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Love the idea of shields, and though I really dislike CaptainTwerkmotor I have to agree with him there should not be personal shields unless something like a riot shield, I also agree about the TCU concept of a bubble around the city. In one of the blog post (here) they said there will be a TCU in the game and the ground claimable by a person or faction should be shielded if sufficient power is provided to the TCU. Ship shields on the other hand i think should be handled differently, something like from the depths you can place a shield and select a size for said shield and you will need multiple shields one or more for each side.

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On the realism front there really isn't any known method that will give us something like scifi shields, at least as far as acting like a barrier generated in empty space outside your vehicle (or whatever you're trying to protect).  There simply is no real-world process which will replicate the effects.  A magnetic field might offer some protection against particle radiation (potentially including particle beam weapons) but that's about it; they would be useless against projectile weapons and lasers.  It might interfere with missile guidance but then missiles will be designed with that in mind anyway and launch a dumb projectile from a greater distance or just follow the magnets.  But hey, DU has some weird space/time geometry compression going on, artificial gravity and FTL travel.

 

As far as the DU version is concerned I figure a shield's "hit points" could be explained as a charge in a capacitor bank.  The shield isn't on all the time, it flickers on only when it sees an incoming projectile, stays on long enough to block it and shuts off the rest of the time, waiting to intercept the next bullet.  This both explains why the shield demands more power when under fire and why it does not stop outgoing weapons.  The shield draws power faster than most power plants can supply it so if you hit it enough times in a row the capacitor gets depleted and the shield won't have enough energy available to stop the next shot.  Give it a chance to recharge and it's back to full strength.  This way the shield is really three different components: The power supply, the shield generator and the capacitor bank.  The type and placement of generator affects the shield geometry, how strong of an attack it can actually prevent, whether it is more efficient against strong or weak attacks and how much of your construct is actually protected.  The capacitor bank affects how many hit points that shield has.  The power plant determines how quickly the capacitor bank can be recharged.

 

The capacitors open up another element of design strategy in general since railguns, coilguns, pulse lasers and particle beams will also need capacitors to supply power.  You might have one big capacitor bank that can run everything, giving you more flexibility, but then firing your railguns eats your shield HP.  Alternately you might compartmentalize, giving dedicated weapon and shield banks so one won't interfere with the other.  Crafty designers might install a switch between the two banks so they are normally isolated but you can occasionally tap your shield reserves for several rapid shots or shut off weapons to extend your shield's HP.

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As far as the DU version is concerned I figure a shield's "hit points" could be explained as a charge in a capacitor bank.  The shield isn't on all the time, it flickers on only when it sees an incoming projectile, stays on long enough to block it and shuts off the rest of the time, waiting to intercept the next bullet.  This both explains why the shield demands more power when under fire and why it does not stop outgoing weapons.  The shield draws power faster than most power plants can supply it so if you hit it enough times in a row the capacitor gets depleted and the shield won't have enough energy available to stop the next shot.  Give it a chance to recharge and it's back to full strength.  This way the shield is really three different components: The power supply, the shield generator and the capacitor bank.  The type and placement of generator affects the shield geometry, how strong of an attack it can actually prevent, whether it is more efficient against strong or weak attacks and how much of your construct is actually protected.  The capacitor bank affects how many hit points that shield has.  The power plant determines how quickly the capacitor bank can be recharged.

 

The capacitors open up another element of design strategy in general since railguns, coilguns, pulse lasers and particle beams will also need capacitors to supply power.  You might have one big capacitor bank that can run everything, giving you more flexibility, but then firing your railguns eats your shield HP.  Alternately you might compartmentalize, giving dedicated weapon and shield banks so one won't interfere with the other.  Crafty designers might install a switch between the two banks so they are normally isolated but you can occasionally tap your shield reserves for several rapid shots or shut off weapons to extend your shield's HP.

 

 That is a really good idea, though you are missing a component. How do your shields "see" incoming fire? branching from this you would need an additional radar  system for the shields. But being a combat ship you most likely would already have this.

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 That is a really good idea, though you are missing a component. How do your shields "see" incoming fire? branching from this you would need an additional radar  system for the shields. But being a combat ship you most likely would already have this.

 

For that I was thinking a weaker version of the shield with a longer range than the proper shield boundary.  My thinking was that any impact on the shield would be transmitted to the generator.  This weaker shield wouldn't be powerful enough to actually stop a projectile but it would still generate enough force feedback for the projector to detect a projectile crossing it.  When that happens it determines where and when it will strike the main shield and triggers the appropriate section just long enough to stop that projectile.  It might be interesting to have to weigh the consequences of various detection shield ranges, with a short range not giving the main shield enough time to react after detection and a long range susceptible to projectiles fired from inside its perimeter, but it would probably be easier to just use this in the lore and assume the detection field is built into the same shield generator assembly.

 

As for lasers force feedback doesn't help much here but the entire hull can be lined with temperature sensors.  When a laser strikes the hull the temperature at the point of impact will increase rapidly.  The shield will be programmed to trigger accordingly.  Depending on how quickly the shield reacts the laser might get anywhere from a few nanoseconds to a few milliseconds on target before the shield triggers and blocks the rest of the burst.  For most practical purposes this probably isn't enough time for a laser to do any real damage.  Of course if we're talking Star Wars style blasters all bets are off; the perimeter feedback field would probably work just fine.

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 That is a really good idea, though you are missing a component. How do your shields "see" incoming fire? branching from this you would need an additional radar  system for the shields. But being a combat ship you most likely would already have this.

They did explain a construct, either a building, ship or protection, would need radars for its weapons to fire, therefore, a radar system would detect a ship in orbit ready to fire and time the force-field on a 0.01 seconds frequency of occurance and since a city has a greater power source and grid structure, the force-field would repell or even negate any attack from orbit. This will give it a flickering effect as well, as it goes on and off and LUA, can replicate this concept.

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For that I was thinking a weaker version of the shield with a longer range than the proper shield boundary.  My thinking was that any impact on the shield would be transmitted to the generator.  This weaker shield wouldn't be powerful enough to actually stop a projectile but it would still generate enough force feedback for the projector to detect a projectile crossing it.  When that happens it determines where and when it will strike the main shield and triggers the appropriate section just long enough to stop that projectile.  It might be interesting to have to weigh the consequences of various detection shield ranges, with a short range not giving the main shield enough time to react after detection and a long range susceptible to projectiles fired from inside its perimeter, but it would probably be easier to just use this in the lore and assume the detection field is built into the same shield generator assembly.

 

As for lasers force feedback doesn't help much here but the entire hull can be lined with temperature sensors.  When a laser strikes the hull the temperature at the point of impact will increase rapidly.  The shield will be programmed to trigger accordingly.  Depending on how quickly the shield reacts the laser might get anywhere from a few nanoseconds to a few milliseconds on target before the shield triggers and blocks the rest of the burst.  For most practical purposes this probably isn't enough time for a laser to do any real damage.  Of course if we're talking Star Wars style blasters all bets are off; the perimeter feedback field would probably work just fine.

A pulse laser firing system would be a great gameplay and counterplay between defensive utilities contructors and weapons manufacturers. Also, a spy in your enemy's city you want to take over, especially if that hex in the planet is the Capital of the world, would make the need for precise sequences to be leaked to the enemy for the laser to go through a flickering force field to be penetrated.

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What do you guys think about having things like shields?

Like shields not only for ships but for players and buildings as well.

 

Sorry if this topic has already been mentioned.

 

I'd really love to see shields of some kind. On ships, I think it's a given that many people would like that in some form, but on buildings, yes I'd really the ability to do that. I wouldn't expect it easy to either obtain or build the technology for it, but it's something I'd consider worth obtaining. 

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I'd really love to see shields of some kind. On ships, I think it's a given that many people would like that in some form, but on buildings, yes I'd really the ability to do that. I wouldn't expect it easy to either obtain or build the technology for it, but it's something I'd consider worth obtaining. 

 

Shields are a given.  There will need to be two types of shielding - physical and E/M.  The physical shielding will be the physical hit points of the craft, and the E/M shielding will be created by a shield generator.  Different types of weapons will affect shields differently - that's where the devs need to make some sort of semi-future realistic sci-fi decisions on how they work.  

 

Here's a quick example of how this could be accomplished:

Particle accelerators (guns)                 Low Tech                Cheap           Short Range          Good against E/M shields bad against physical shielding

Missiles                                                Medium Tech          Expensive     Long Range           Average against both physical and E/M shielding

Laser                                                    High Tech               Cheap           Short Range          Good against Physical shields, bad against E/M shielding

Plasma weapons                                  High tech                Expensive     Long Range           Good against both E/M and Physical shielding

 

The short range weapons could act as point defense against long range weapons as well.  Again the guns could be good against missiles and lasers good against plasma weapons.

 

Additionally Ion weapons can be used to take out E/m shields for a period of time as well.

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Shields are a given.  There will need to be two types of shielding - physical and E/M.  The physical shielding will be the physical hit points of the craft, and the E/M shielding will be created by a shield generator.  Different types of weapons will affect shields differently - that's where the devs need to make some sort of semi-future realistic sci-fi decisions on how they work.  

 

Here's a quick example of how this could be accomplished:

Particle accelerators (guns)                 Low Tech                Cheap           Short Range          Good against E/M shields bad against physical shielding

Missiles                                                Medium Tech          Expensive     Long Range           Average against both physical and E/M shielding

Laser                                                    High Tech               Cheap           Short Range          Good against Physical shields, bad against E/M shielding

Plasma weapons                                  High tech                Expensive     Long Range           Good against both E/M and Physical shielding

 

The short range weapons could act as point defense against long range weapons as well.  Again the guns could be good against missiles and lasers good against plasma weapons.

 

Additionally Ion weapons can be used to take out E/m shields for a period of time as well.

Refer to good sir Archer's post on why these shields can't work. He's a rocket scientist and showed me the error of my ways through unmitigated facts on many occasions. The devs aim for a realistic type of shields (if any), that would be raw force fields, which would only scale by power cores given the LUA script DPUs will need to be wired in a proper fashion for the scripts to work and shields, would not be an exception.

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