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Am I alone in thinking that Stargate Probes are a bad idea?

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You asked "what is freeform travel? Is it like in eve where they move from star to star without jumpgates"

I answer: "roughly, but you may not move instantly between stars"

 

Where is that not an answer?

 

I then asked for clarification, "Do you mean any form of interstellar travel that does not require stargates?" and for some reason you refused to simply say "Yes."

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If interstellar travel is limited to stargates only, how would you ever get out of the first solar system?  Are you advocating for pre-made stargates?  I would be strongly against that.

 

Furthermore, what is the point in a continuous single shard universe if you can't actually go to the space in between star systems?  You may as well forget the continuous part and make separate shards for each system like in Eve.

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If interstellar travel is limited to stargates only, how would you ever get out of the first solar system?  Are you advocating for pre-made stargates?  I would be strongly against that.

 

Furthermore, what is the point in a continuous single shard universe if you can't actually go to the space in between star systems?  You may as well forget the continuous part and make separate shards for each system like in Eve.

they already said it will take weeks to get off the planet we start in, it's safe to assume players will spread on the four winds after the first system by building stargates, or the arkship "crew" having built stargates for us to leave the first system (somehow). I know that I for example, will plunge myself on a star to see my face melt for starters.

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they already said it will take weeks to get off the planet we start in, it's safe to assume players will spread on the four winds after the first system by building stargates, or the arkship "crew" having built stargates for us to leave the first system (somehow). I know that I for example, will plunge myself on a star to see my face melt for starters.

 

I am pretty sure there are no premade stargates planned.  I understand what DU are planning for expansion beyond the first planet.  I am just asking about this "no freeform travel" idea.

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I am pretty sure there are no premade stargates planned.  I understand what DU are planning for expansion beyond the first planet.  I am just asking about this "no freeform travel" idea.

You know what would be really cynical on the devs part? :P

 

To let us travel the first time with normal speed to the next system and then instantly grant us the knowledge of building STargates, with an in game mail saying "this is why you don't go the slow way from system to system" xD

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You know what would be really cynical on the devs part? :P

 

To let us travel the first time with normal speed to the next system and then instantly grant us the knowledge of building STargates, with an in game mail saying "this is why you don't go the slow way from system to system" xD

 

 

I think what the devs have planned is good.  I just think the initial journeys to new systems should be done by actual players, not probes, and that the space in between systems should be rich with content.

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I think what the devs have planned is good.  I just think the initial journeys to new systems should be done by actual players, not probes, and that the space in between systems should be rich with content.

Not to sound a bit abnoxious, but it's "vacuum of space" for a reason :P 

 

There's pretty much nothing between systems. What content could exist, away from a possible habbitat? What would "rich content" if not a new star system. I mean, I hardly think many people will bother leaving the starting planet if they find a nice spot by the sea and begin building non-stop. Especailly players who expected Landmark to not be so much of a turd. (We all know it's true tho).

 

Freeform travel should be in the game, yes, absolutely, it's part of the whole "single shard, dynamic splitting" idea tthe game got going for it, but not freeform for FTL is my point, for all the gameplay reasons I explained on jump-points being like gates on a castle. If someone wants to go over your wall, they'll have to work for it hard. That's my case on the subject.

 

 

And please do clarify on "rich content" between stars, cause I can only think of comets with rare resources only. :/

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If interstellar travel is limited to stargates only, how would you ever get out of the first solar system?  Are you advocating for pre-made stargates?  I would be strongly against that.

 

Furthermore, what is the point in a continuous single shard universe if you can't actually go to the space in between star systems?  You may as well forget the continuous part and make separate shards for each system like in Eve.

Well, i've been suggesting for a while now that stargates could act as "catapults" for ships.

You dont require an arrival gate to get anywhere, but a jump without artival gate needs larger amounts of energy and complex calculations and high scanning effort of the star system you want to jump to.

 

So you can get to new star systems with a departure gate only, but it needs time to calculate the jump, larger generators and possibly a more complex gate than gate to gate jumps.

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Not to sound a bit abnoxious, but it's "vacuum of space" for a reason :P 

 

There's pretty much nothing between systems. What content could exist, away from a possible habbitat? What would "rich content" if not a new star system. I mean, I hardly think many people will bother leaving the starting planet if they find a nice spot by the sea and begin building non-stop. Especailly players who expected Landmark to not be so much of a turd. (We all know it's true tho).

 

Freeform travel should be in the game, yes, absolutely, it's part of the whole "single shard, dynamic splitting" idea tthe game got going for it, but not freeform for FTL is my point, for all the gameplay reasons I explained on jump-points being like gates on a castle. If someone wants to go over your wall, they'll have to work for it hard. That's my case on the subject.

 

 

And please do clarify on "rich content" between stars, cause I can only think of comets with rare resources only. :/

 

The outer reaches of our solar system are populated with dwarf planets, icy rocks (which incidentally are where comets come from), possibly even a brown dwarf.  These are theorised to extend out to at least a light year from the sun, possibly much further.  That is a significant portion of the distance to the next star.  If all solar systems are surrounded by such an assortment of rocks, small planets, and other bodies they can provide stepping stones between systems.

 

It is thought that there are more rogue planets in the milky way than there are stars.  The space in between systems can be populated with these rogue planets.  Other possibilities are vast asteroid clusters, dense gas clouds, alien ship wrecks, other cosmic phenomenon, and anything else you can think of.  TBH this is not the first time I've brought this up https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/499-interstellar-space/?hl=interstellar  And I shared a cool article about rogue planets a while ago too https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/547-rogue-planets/?hl=%2Brogue+%2Bplanets.

 

Having this kind of content in interstellar space would make the DU universe truly unique and "continuous".

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The outer reaches of our solar system are populated with dwarf planets, icy rocks (which incidentally are where comets come from), possibly even a brown dwarf.  These are theorised to extend out to at least a light year from the sun, possibly much further.  That is a significant portion of the distance to the next star.  If all solar systems are surrounded by such an assortment of rocks, small planets, and other bodies they can provide stepping stones between systems.

 

It is thought that there are more rogue planets in the milky way than there are stars.  The space in between systems can be populated with these rogue planets.  Other possibilities are vast asteroid clusters, dense gas clouds, alien ship wrecks, other cosmic phenomenon, and anything else you can think of.  TBH this is not the first time I've brought this up https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/499-interstellar-space/?hl=interstellar  And I shared a cool article about rogue planets a while ago too https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/547-rogue-planets/?hl=%2Brogue+%2Bplanets.

 

Having this kind of content in interstellar space would make the DU universe truly unique and "continuous".

If it's like a PvE content thingy , akin to "rare elites" in WoW, then sure, I can see a reason for people to venture in deep space. But I'll stick on a planet, going around, having myself getting in trouble. I said so repeatedly, I am into Dual for the ground and planets involed, not the space stuff :P

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The solo players ought to be even more well off then, in terms of immersion. If you were to consider the real world, a single person in most cases is not going to be able to get very far in anything just by him/herself. The same carries over here. This is an MMO, a massively multiplayer online game, designed to facilitate and encourage interaction and sociality. There is absolutely no problem in players enjoying a lone wolf playstyle in MMOs, but the MMO at its core is not designed to cater to these solo players.

I never said or implied that working with other people is not more immersive. I simply gave an fairly obvious answer to the question as to why people like to play solo in an MMO, which is their choice and is not right or wrong. As far as to why a game developer should offer enough content for these solo players, that is an easy answer as well. It makes the developer more money though a larger player base.

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And how will allowing for "freeform" travel accommodate the immersion of having worlds feel alive, if everyone can just immediately fly off into deep space without ever needing to interact with another player? If everyone can just have their own planet without any real effort, there won't be any of that immersion.

 

I never debated this, or care to. I simply answered your question as to why people like to play solo in MMO's.

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Don't get sucked into Twerk's B.S.  Just throw him on ignore.  Not worth anyone's time.

 

I had only read two of his posts to conclude this.

Salt : it's what fuels me.

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Absolutely agree with this! If SG system will be realized in this way, the game will be realy boring! There will be no events for months. Politics, trading, will just stuck in developing. I thing that players should be able to travel much more quicker. Not months, but days, at first time, then hours when technologies are progressing. There also should be a lot of interesting in deep space like anomalies, rare resources, technologies that can be only found in ruins of ancient civilizations, and cant be researched anywhere. So players sould have advantages in exploring and traveling.

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Absolutely agree with this! If SG system will be realized in this way, the game will be realy boring! There will be no events for months. Politics, trading, will just stuck in developing. I thing that players should be able to travel much more quicker. Not months, but days, at first time, then hours when technologies are progressing. There also should be a lot of interesting in deep space like anomalies, rare resources, technologies that can be only found in ruins of ancient civilizations, and cant be researched anywhere. So players sould have advantages in exploring and traveling.

They said that mega-ships will be able to have warp-drive bubbles for an entire fleet or a part of it to warp. So yey for "tunneling" to your enemy's homeworld. They said that it might take a month or two to unlock for the players so the Devs can avoid haivng problems with balance.

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They said that mega-ships will be able to have warp-drive bubbles for an entire fleet or a part of it to warp. So yey for "tunneling" to your enemy's homeworld. They said that it might take a month or two to unlock for the players so the Devs can avoid haivng problems with balance.

Ok. Its much better idea. But how about smaller ships? For example exploration ships controled by small crew or even one person? They also should be able to go in warp. I dont see any problems in giving this ability to smaller crafts.

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Ok. Its much better idea. But how about smaller ships? For example exploration ships controled by small crew or even one person? They also should be able to go in warp. I dont see any problems in giving this ability to smaller crafts.

If all ships could have warp bubbles that would defuse the point of having star-gates to begin with, or borders, or any safe haven for players. to build their cities. Not all want to fight all the time you know.

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If all ships could have warp bubbles that would defuse the point of having star-gates to begin with, or borders, or any safe haven for players. to build their cities. Not all want to fight all the time you know.

Dont see any connection betwen this two statements. Why ability to move in space can destroy borders or lead to endless wars!? War should be expensive thing. So nobody will engage in war just fow fun.

 

If star-gates will be working in this way that would defuse the point of having endless universe in this game. What sence to have giant procedural generating universe with milions of planets if you can move betwen them so hardly? So after years of gameplay you will see only 10-15 of them.

 

And why everybody must sitting in one place for months and years? It is boring. Nobody will play space MMO without space.

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If star-gates will be working in this way that would defuse the point of having endless universe in this game. What sence to have giant procedural generating universe with milions of planets if you can move betwen them so hardly? So after years of gameplay you will see only 10-15 of them.

 

Dont see any connection betwen this two statements. Why ability to move in space can destroy borders or lead to endless wars!? War should be expensive thing. So nobody will engage in war just fow fun.

 

And why everybody must sitting in one place for months and years? It is boring. Nobody will play space MMO without space.

Because for an Empire to exist, you'd need borders and if warp could be aqcuired by everyone, there would not be a reason to have a continuous single-shard server but an EVE-like fragmented series of servers that emulates a continuous world.

 

And any form of empire would be irrelevant, since you could go to their capital world not to mention any trading routes would be impossible to keep safe. 

 

 

Stealth? Throw it out of the window, it doesn't matter.

 

Keeping your empire's lines protected? Don't bother, it won't matter, captain xXx_ProMLG09_xXx is going to bring his goons at your doorstep and destroy your cities.

 

 

And a starship so large it can house a warp-bubble generator would be seen from miles away as spies would leak the information to an Empire to make them lay an ambush. If anyone can have a warp-bubble, with unlimited range, it would mean nothing in the long-run.

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Because for an Empire to exist, you'd need borders and if warp could be aqcuired by everyone, there would not be a reason to have a continuous single-shard server but an EVE-like fragmented series of servers that emulates a continuous world.

And stargets is not  emulates continious world? Its the same. You are in one solar system, then you are in other. 

 

And any form of empire would be irrelevant, since you could go to their capital world not to mention any trading routes would be impossible to keep safe. 

 

Stealth? Throw it out of the window, it doesn't matter.

 

Keeping your empire's lines protected? Don't bother, it won't matter, captain xXx_ProMLG09_xXx is going to bring his goons at your doorstep and destroy your cities.

There can be sensors which are able to detect any ship in system. There also can be cloaking device that can hide small ships, so thay can do some scouting before the fleet. But biger ships cant be hide easely. Also it takes some imes to fly across the star systems. Few hours for example. And there would not be any unexpected invaders. And of corse there would not be any xXx_ProMLG09_xXx who can destroy your city. I dont think that one person can do this.

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And stargets is not  emulates continious world? Its the same. You are in one solar system, then you are in other. 

 

There can be sensors which are able to detect any ship in system. There also can be cloaking device that can hide small ships, so thay can do some scouting before the fleet. But biger ships cant be hide easely. Also it takes some imes to fly across the star systems. Few hours for example. And there would not be any unexpected invaders. And of corse there would not be any xXx_ProMLG09_xXx who can destroy your city. I dont think that one person can do this.

Stargates are there for ease of passage, not ease of ganking. While you can travel the inbetween space for however it may take, a warp is there to be a trick for your entire-fleet to go from one place to another, like a jetpack would be for a ground-trooper to scale a fort's wall without going through the front game. A Warp Bubble would be a powerful tool, meant for powerful empires, not for the common joe.

 

Adding sensors means nothing if your enemy can go from their capital to your capital within minutes, bypassing any defense along the way.  The same concept in reverse is applied to stealth. Small ships can have a module that decreases their signature on the map, making them able to go through enemy territory to go onto a suicide mission on destroying a factory.

 

Hindering your enemy or ganking trading routes is not the same as giving EVERYONE the ability to headshot their enemy with one move. Let Warp-Bubbles be for the powerful and dedicated players, like Titans are on EVE. And stealth-bombers would work to saboage such a super-ship to be destroyed pronto, in order to negate any such advantage on one side, similar to how "Wonders" worked in the original Age of Empires, since such SUPER-SHIPS would be a very, VERY powerful weapon to have on your side.

 

 

As a wise saying goes "if everyone is Superman, there's no need to claim you are one".

 

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Stargates are there for ease of passage, not ease of ganking. While you can travel the inbetween space for however it may take, a warp is there to be a trick for your entire-fleet to go from one place to another, like a jetpack would be for a ground-trooper to scale a fort's wall without going through the front game. A Warp Bubble would be a powerful tool, meant for powerful empires, not for the common joe.

 

Adding sensors means nothing if your enemy can go from their capital to your capital within minutes, bypassing any defense along the way.  The same concept in reverse is applied to stealth. Small ships can have a module that decreases their signature on the map, making them able to go through enemy territory to go onto a suicide mission on destroying a factory.

 

Hindering your enemy or ganking trading routes is not the same as giving EVERYONE the ability to headshot their enemy with one move. Let Warp-Bubbles be for the powerful and dedicated players, like Titans are on EVE. And stealth-bombers would work to saboage such a super-ship to be destroyed pronto, in order to negate any such advantage on one side, similar to how "Wonders" worked in the original Age of Empires, since such SUPER-SHIPS would be a very, VERY powerful weapon to have on your side.

 

 

As a wise saying goes "if everyone is Superman, there's no need to claim you are one".

 

SG realized in this way is frakking bullshit. And please stop using pink font colour.

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SG realized in this way is frakking bullshit. And please stop using pink font colour.

Would you ask a person on a wheelchair to stop making clinking sounds as he rolled his chair? Cause I'm colorblind and pink font is the only way I can keep track of people quoting me. If you have a problem with my arguement, don't focus on them.

 

Your arguements make ganking easy and seeing as you are part of a pirate organisation, I can see why. And being a pirate is impossible, when a trader ship can warp from one system to another, without any risk being taken. But you didn't think that through, did you?

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Personally I think that all FTL should be done via instantaneous teleportation. But have the methods defined by logistics and security.

 

-----------------------------------

Method 1) Jump Envelope.

The warp generator creates a bubble a certain distance around itself and teleports everything inside to a location a preset distance away along a straight line. You plug in the distance for each jump and it takes you there. The jump requires an enormous amount of power which registers as a spike on any sensor in the star system. The generator then has to recharge before it can jump again. It does not work in gravity wells.
The size of the Jump envelope is dictated by the number and placement of warp generators on the ship. One is enough for a small corvette sized ship (Serenity, Millennium falcon). Anything outside the field is left behind.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Method 2) Jump envelope + beacon

You can set up a beacon that anybody can align and jump to with a standard jump envelope. The beacon requires warp generators to build and consumes them in its operation. While burning the beacon is visible on sensors within a few light years.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Border Countermeasure: using a warp generator plus some other components you can create a teleport area denial node (TAD). This creates a minor distortion in local space which prevents the use of jump envelopes within a several thousand kilometer bubble (exact distance subject to balancing). TADs require constant power to operate and are detectable within the same system (although they don't light up nearly as much as jump signatures)

 

-------------------------------------

Method 3) Jump Gates

Using several warp generators mounted to a physical gate and an ungodly supply of energy you create a stable portal between two locations. You need a gate at each end. An active gate is a huge continuous sensor spike in the system it is operating in.

 

The size of a gate is dictated by the width of the arch and the number of warp generators used. One warp generator is enough for a person sized portal. For ships you need many, many, more.

A gate is the only way to teleport within a gravity well and is unaffected by TADs. It is also the only continuous portal, with no recharge time due to its immense power input.

------------------------

Logistics

Warp generators require huge quantities of exotic materials to make. A single warp generator is a big investment for a small operation. Enough to build a capital class gate along with the associated power infrastructure is a gigantic undertaking. 

A single generator gets you mobile between planets, but it takes a lot of trial and error and more importantly, time. Multiple generators allows you to either bring a bigger ship or jump more often depending on use.

Putting together a gate permanently connects two locations with instantaneous travel from the orbit or surface of one planet to another. It's the most expensive option, but the most beneficial for trade and troop movements.

 

Lighting a beacon allows you to jump somewhere reliably without the use of a gate, but is extremely costly. (still doesn't work in a TAD)

 

Security

You secure your borders with TADs by creating a large 'dead zone' around the places you want to keep secure. Between that and monitoring stations to detect and triangulate jump signatures you can keep your space locked down pretty tight. Would be attackers would need to jump far out of system and slowboat in from an unexpected angle, or find a way to drop a section of the zone through espionage. Either way it puts them on the back foot.

 

(credit goes to schlock mercenary for the teraport area denial system http://www.schlockmercenary.com/)

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