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New mass:max speed/rotation curve is perfect.


TobiwanKenobi
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Good job NQ. Thanks for listening to the feedback. The new max speed changes bring M-core and L-core pvp ships into a better position compared to S-cores, and single-package mission running will be less painful. The rotation changes feel really nice as well. My M-core hauler doesn't feel stiff and annoying to fly anymore.

 

Just wanted to express my appreciation. Keep up the great work.

 

Edited by TobiwanKenobi
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It is now necessary to Remove the possibility of putting M or L shields on an S core.
And an L shield on an M core.

And the meta may be playable with ships that may end up looking like a few things.
 

For the moment we are going to have a release with a Meta where the XS edge cubes are replaced by core S sticks. 😂

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39 minutes ago, Knight-Sevy said:

It is now necessary to Remove the possibility of putting M or L shields on an S core.

I disagree entirely. M shield is the only thing keeping S-cores remotely competitive. They already have less than half of the effective hp of a L-shield M-core, even when accounting for cross section and hit chances. Limiting shield sizes to core size will just make the time-to-kill even lower. Ships already die very quickly. Limiting shield size to core size will halve the time-to-kill.

 

The voxel buffs are more than enough to make M-cores and L-cores dominant again. I think the new dominant meta ship is a 600t M-core with a L-shield. So much hp, good dps, and you can have S-weapons on a backup seat to deal with S-cores.

I think we just need XL shields for L-cores. 20M hp, about 500t.

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There is just too much cumulative advantage on core S sticks
 

Take advantage of the higher maximum speed
Take advantage of your immunity to stasis
Take advantage of better chance of hitting
Take advantage of better tracking
Take advantage of low manufacturing cost
Benefit from a low maintenance cost
I forgot others
 

And also be the one with the best armor thanks to the big shield + cross section combo...

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2 hours ago, Knight-Sevy said:

And also be the one with the best armor thanks to the big shield + cross section combo...

This is where I disagree. S-cores have 1/3 of the survivability of a ship with a L-shield and some voxel armor. S-cores die very quickly when focused. They do have a lot of advantages, but they're so fragile. If they had to use S shields they would die in 30 seconds of being targeted by even a few ships. Same thing with M cores with M shield. They would die so fast.

And don't forget to list the other big disadvantage of S-cores:
Short range

 

Also, these items aren't advantages that are exclusive to S-cores:

Take advantage of better chance of hitting
Take advantage of better tracking

 

Since L and M cores can equip S weapons as well. IMO, S-cores are very easily countered just by equipping M-cores and L-cores with a backup set of S cannons. Getting attacked by S-cores that are too close to hit? Just switch to your S cannon gunner seat and drive them away easily. Any M- or L-core that doesn't have a set of S weapons just isn't complete.

Edited by TobiwanKenobi
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I wish cross section wasn't the be all end all of hit probabilities. That would also make stasis weapons more important and we could keep things how they are with S cores using L shields even if they want. And would create more diversity.  Like railguns and such would also factor in faster you going, more miss chances. But if you have L rail and that S core is slowing down to reverse burn, BAM he gets hit hard. Stuff like that. And missiles are pretty weak now, so maybe since missiles can be seen as "computer guided" they aren't really effected by speed.  This tweaks of how hit chance is calculated and how different guns effect that could add greater diversity and planning.  A few L cores could be viable if proper use of stasis webs or timing. 

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Either way it sounds like weapon damage needs better balancing and variety.  The honeycomb changes may be related but something isn't adding up to hear this conversation. 

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Stasis weapons needs to be redone too.  1 stasis per gunner seat.  Take out the calculation based on mass of your target.  It's completely ass backwards. It's easier to hit bigger target but that target is already going slow or even at min speed of 20km.  So make It hit anything the same, with some cross section calculation for hit chance.  Make the cone really small and range small like 15km. But if it hits the effect lasts 20 seconds, and you Fire it every 10. Lets reduce server calculations where they aren't needed.  This makes them effective, but you also loose a whole gunner seat of dps. But it could also add lots of DPS allowing M and L to apply dmg to smaller cores. Gives way more options to form fleets. 

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19 minutes ago, Wyndle said:

Either way it sounds like weapon damage needs better balancing and variety.  The honeycomb changes may be related but something isn't adding up to hear this conversation. 

 

I think it would be interesting if weapon types did different base damage against shields then voxels. So for instance lasers would do amazing dmg against shields. But then do piss poor vs voxels and elements.  You could still core a ship with only lasers but if they had any decent or even minimal voxel protection it would take a lot to kill. Maybe even a ship could get a vent off.  Same thing reverse with cannons. Very low shield dps, but crazy insane voxel dps.  Once shields go down if someone puts cannons on you in range you might be toast, even with decent voxel protection.  Stuff of that nature would mean rounding out your fleets more. And how you focus targets would matter, etc.

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21 hours ago, TobiwanKenobi said:

This is where I disagree. S-cores have 1/3 of the survivability of a ship with a L-shield and some voxel armor. S-cores die very quickly when focused. They do have a lot of advantages, but they're so fragile. If they had to use S shields they would die in 30 seconds of being targeted by even a few ships. Same thing with M cores with M shield. They would die so fast.

And don't forget to list the other big disadvantage of S-cores:
Short range

 

Also, these items aren't advantages that are exclusive to S-cores:

Take advantage of better chance of hitting
Take advantage of better tracking

 

Since L and M cores can equip S weapons as well. IMO, S-cores are very easily countered just by equipping M-cores and L-cores with a backup set of S cannons. Getting attacked by S-cores that are too close to hit? Just switch to your S cannon gunner seat and drive them away easily. Any M- or L-core that doesn't have a set of S weapons just isn't complete.


 

You say to use voxels on M and L.

But that you absolutely want to keep the M and L shields on your S ships without voxels because otherwise they are too fragile.

Why there is not the same answer:

Put voxels on your S ships?

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Don't get me wrong, I'm really happy to now have to play with a mix of S and M/L core on a PvP flett.
The ratio is to be determined but 4 core S for 1 core M or L seems interesting.

What I really don't like and makes me vomit is the completely mind-boggling obligation in a creativity / build game to see and suffer these voxelless stick S cores that play only on the use of a shield M or L.

They must not be able to completely ignore the use of voxels.

This is why it is necessary at least to block the use of shields like weapons on core sizes.

Your S dies too quickly? Damn: Uses voxel.

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33 minutes ago, Knight-Sevy said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm really happy to now have to play with a mix of S and M/L core on a PvP flett.
The ratio is to be determined but 4 core S for 1 core M or L seems interesting.

What I really don't like and makes me vomit is the completely mind-boggling obligation in a creativity / build game to see and suffer these voxelless stick S cores that play only on the use of a shield M or L.

They must not be able to completely ignore the use of voxels.

This is why it is necessary at least to block the use of shields like weapons on core sizes.

Your S dies too quickly? Damn: Uses voxel.

 

i understand what you saying, but that would also need complete rework of element HP.  Its out of whack compared to L guns and stuff. Taking some voxel dmg to tank is all fine in theory, if i also dont lose 90% of my guns, a large portion of adjusters, and 3 engines after 10 seconds of being shot.  Not to mention radars on the outside? 1 bullet and BAM im flying blind now.  Kinda ruins the gameplay.  So there is a ton of work that would need to be prepped before you begin to think about making shields tied to their size and core.

Edited by CousinSal
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6 hours ago, Knight-Sevy said:

Put voxels on your S ships?

 

6 hours ago, Knight-Sevy said:

Your S dies too quickly? Damn: Uses voxel.

Voxel won't do anything for S ships. Shields down = S dead or disabled.

Anyway, artificially limiting elements by core size is the wrong way to go. Better to have an energy system that limits elements by forcing the builder to make trade-offs. If a S-core wants a L-shield, it can only fit a partial set of S guns. If a M-core wants a L-shield, it can only fit one set of M guns and one set of S guns - not two sets M guns, with two L radars.

 

Fit limitations based on an energy system would be much more dynamic and interesting than just shoe-horning ships into specific builds. Until we get something like that, I'd prefer it if element selection remained more free. I don't even see a reason to limit gun sizes to core size right now as well, since having L guns doesn't give an inherent advantage like it used to.

Edited by TobiwanKenobi
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Locking shields to core sizes won't even accomplish anything. I can build the exact same S core on an M core and the only difference is a slightly heavier core element. S ships need to be fast to survive; I don't think voxel is out of the question on them but you really need to think about it and, more importantly, judge what other people are flying. If you want to force voxel on ships there would need to be some amount of shield bleed. Scaling the probability of a shot bleeding through a shield based on the current HP of the shield could also add interesting gameplay around venting early to keep the shield in a better state for longer. It would also let you add small passive regeneration to shields without being obnoxious.

 

I do think we should see where the current changes go, however, before something like that is added.

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