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Demeter=DU has failed in fundamental game design requiring either a full rebuild or re-kickstart


Warlander
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27 minutes ago, Zeddrick said:

You can only see about 1 tile in any direction?  Surely the most you ever need for that is 7 tiles.

Do the maths.  Alioth has about 60,000 tiles.  If every player has 20 then we can only get about 3,000 players on Alioth before it fills up.  Less in practice unless they arrange themselves nicely.  And if all those players can just leave and keep their tiles forever, how long before the game is full of dead land like certain other dead MMOs out there?  Was it ever realistic to think that island was yours forever?

Depending on your account type, though, you might be able to make all 20 into HQ tiles.  I have the cheapest pre-beta backing package which gave me 2 extra beta keys.  I can have 15 HQ tiles with that, which is close to your 20.  With 4 accounts (even cheaper now you can sub them for 1 month each) you can make all the tiles into HQ tiles forever ...

Alioth has almost 260,000 territories. Divided by 20 territories, there would be 13,000 players on Alioth alone. This number corresponds to a normal to full server in other games, sometimes even overcrowded servers (depending on the game).

DualUniverse has no problem, even if each player has 100 tiles, there are still enough free planets and moons to occupy. Even if with 1,000,000 players there will be new solar systems....it's not a problem how many tiles a player has, but a problem that DualUniverse cannot handle so many players and so many constructs.

Currently, there are over 920,000 territories in the solar system. So enough for everyone, especially since most planets are not even 40% full. (Sanctuary with 37% is the maximum). 

Screenshot (4030).png

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4 minutes ago, Zeddrick said:

Depending on your account type, though, you might be able to make all 20 into HQ tiles.  I have the cheapest pre-beta backing package which gave me 2 extra beta keys.  I can have 15 HQ tiles with that, which is close to your 20.  With 4 accounts (even cheaper now you can sub them for 1 month each) you can make all the tiles into HQ tiles forever ...

Do you really think that all beta keys will remain free forever? At the latest with the release of the game, all beta keys may be converted into normal subscription accounts. There will be a flood of orphaned multiaccounts because players would suddenly have to pay real money.

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Every demographic of player in this game is dying and im not debating that.

 

I have seen and explored the builds of large orgs, watched their streams when this game was in alpha/beta before most lost interest, and regonize the monumental effort collectively it took to make massive industries, builds etc along with all the resources many were sitting on.

 

Any of them could come back IF/WHEN NQ turns this around unless they do things like create a tax grief loop designed to loot and kick out dead tiles and consolidate power further. Oh wait.

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1 hour ago, Zarcata said:

Do you really think that all beta keys will remain free forever? At the latest with the release of the game, all beta keys may be converted into normal subscription accounts. There will be a flood of orphaned multiaccounts because players would suddenly have to pay real money.

No.  But you can make 5 HQ tiles with each account and those do not get lost when you stop paying tax.  If you only want some of the territories for the view you can just make them HQ tiles for un-subbed accounts.

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1 hour ago, Zarcata said:

Alioth has almost 260,000 territories. Divided by 20 territories, there would be 13,000 players on Alioth alone. This number corresponds to a normal to full server in other games, sometimes even overcrowded servers (depending on the game).

DualUniverse has no problem, even if each player has 100 tiles, there are still enough free planets and moons to occupy. Even if with 1,000,000 players there will be new solar systems....it's not a problem how many tiles a player has, but a problem that DualUniverse cannot handle so many players and so many constructs.

Currently, there are over 920,000 territories in the solar system. So enough for everyone, especially since most planets are not even 40% full. (Sanctuary with 37% is the maximum). 

Screenshot (4030).png

OK, that's a bit bigger than I remembered.  But still there's a problem with infinite tile ownership because all the central areas get claimed by people who aren't playing and the active player base is forced out away from the centre and fragmented.

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10 minutes ago, Zeddrick said:

OK, that's a bit bigger than I remembered.  But still there's a problem with infinite tile ownership because all the central areas get claimed by people who aren't playing and the active player base is forced out away from the centre and fragmented.

which centre? We, the active players, determine the centre. If market 6 is suddenly surrounded by empty tiles and no one wants to sell there anymore, it is easy to simply move on to other markets to build up a supply there.

Alioth was mostly chosen because it was free and easy to get there at the beginning and at any time from Santuary after the start of the game, and also because it is a more friendly planet, unlike Madis.

Another feature: it is located in the confirmed permanent safe zone. Therefore, it is probably not an option for many players to settle somewhere else, because all other moons and planets eventually fall victim to PvP.

If there is another solar system (if that should ever come again), this could be a new attempt to choose a new home there, should there be a safezone, if it is nicer or more interesting there than on Alioth.

But I think many players really just want to build for themselves to relax and enjoy their free time. Why the developers now feel an urge to tell players how to play just shows that they don't know what playing is anymore. Unfortunately, a lot of people in our society are just dead beings who follow their 0815 daily routine.

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3 hours ago, Zarcata said:

which centre? We, the active players, determine the centre. If market 6 is suddenly surrounded by empty tiles and no one wants to sell there anymore, it is easy to simply move on to other markets to build up a supply there.

Alioth was mostly chosen because it was free and easy to get there at the beginning and at any time from Santuary after the start of the game, and also because it is a more friendly planet, unlike Madis.

Another feature: it is located in the confirmed permanent safe zone. Therefore, it is probably not an option for many players to settle somewhere else, because all other moons and planets eventually fall victim to PvP.

If there is another solar system (if that should ever come again), this could be a new attempt to choose a new home there, should there be a safezone, if it is nicer or more interesting there than on Alioth.

But I think many players really just want to build for themselves to relax and enjoy their free time. Why the developers now feel an urge to tell players how to play just shows that they don't know what playing is anymore. Unfortunately, a lot of people in our society are just dead beings who follow their 0815 daily routine.

 

Honestly I kind hope NQ makes setting up rings around markets come with some kind of property value to the rings around the market hexes so that it inceases the tax rate slightly to all connected tiles regardless of org as long as they touch each other so that living next to the market costs a lot more or to purposely denies HQ tiles to some kind of region cluster like 25-50 tiles from the central market tile so you have to pay.

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8 hours ago, Zarcata said:

This works until they move the markets again. It wouldn't be the first time that the markets were changed from the position.

 

Honestly im surprised with the markets that they just didnt flatten all the terrain to make a 1km flat landing strip and paint the ground with building voxels where they wanted instead of building platforms everywhere with all the voxels and everything that adds stress vs a flat market type space bazaar.

 

Now that they have a tax system they really need to start charging people per week for just leaving ships at the market like all the box stacks and everything there or it defaults and gets abandoned.

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I am not going to lie, I am 100% in dual universe for the experience of 'landmark online but in space' and I hope that 'free' ore over time will mean more people build random fun things . I do worry that larger builds will not have the needed materials 

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On 11/19/2021 at 11:39 AM, Zeddrick said:

You can only see about 1 tile in any direction?  Surely the most you ever need for that is 7 tiles.

Do the maths.  Alioth has about 60,000 tiles.  If every player has 20 then we can only get about 3,000 players on Alioth before it fills up.  Less in practice unless they arrange themselves nicely.  And if all those players can just leave and keep their tiles forever, how long before the game is full of dead land like certain other dead MMOs out there?  Was it ever realistic to think that island was yours forever?

Depending on your account type, though, you might be able to make all 20 into HQ tiles.  I have the cheapest pre-beta backing package which gave me 2 extra beta keys.  I can have 15 HQ tiles with that, which is close to your 20.  With 4 accounts (even cheaper now you can sub them for 1 month each) you can make all the tiles into HQ tiles forever ...


First of all we both know you can see a lot further than 1 tile, so don't be a troll. Secondly, not every player wants to build a large location based project. But what I was doing was protecting my view from someone putting a damn ugly penis space tower right off my front porch which happened to me and was why I moved to BFE of Alioth.

Now since you want to crap on me about my resort and tell me to "do the math" on how unrealistic I was for wanting to have a goal that doesn't revolve around hoarding quanta and flying the biggest penis in the space/sky, consider this...

1. Alioth has 259,472 territories not 60,000... (looks like you yourself can't do math).

2. Between all 12 planets you have approximately 730,000 - 750,000 tiles in the solar system not counting moons, which they themselves have 3,000 - 5,000 tiles each. So you have enough tiles for 37,500 players to have 20 a piece. Considering EVE online has 22,000 active players... you would be talking about DU being twice as popular as Eve.

This also excludes the 111,632 territories which we can all have one of on Sanctuary... which only 41,455 have ever been claimed....

3. I never protested having taxes, I protest the rates cause I don't want to slave to the game and optimize my real life schedule around in game timers to maintain what I spent two years to build.

4. Additionally unlike you and those that exploit the mission system for self gain, I am not here to play Alt Universe.

Looks like my math is pretty solid, at least way better than yours...

 

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6 hours ago, Creator said:


First of all we both know you can see a lot further than 1 tile, so don't be a troll. Secondly, not every player wants to build a large location based project. But what I was doing was protecting my view from someone putting a damn ugly penis space tower right off my front porch which happened to me and was why I moved to BFE of Alioth.

Now since you want to crap on me about my resort and tell me to "do the math" on how unrealistic I was for wanting to have a goal that doesn't revolve around hoarding quanta and flying the biggest penis in the space/sky, consider this...

1. Alioth has 259,472 territories not 60,000... (looks like you yourself can't do math).

2. Between all 12 planets you have approximately 730,000 - 750,000 tiles in the solar system not counting moons, which they themselves have 3,000 - 5,000 tiles each. So you have enough tiles for 37,500 players to have 20 a piece. Considering EVE online has 22,000 active players... you would be talking about DU being twice as popular as Eve.

This also excludes the 111,632 territories which we can all have one of on Sanctuary... which only 41,455 have ever been claimed....

3. I never protested having taxes, I protest the rates cause I don't want to slave to the game and optimize my real life schedule around in game timers to maintain what I spent two years to build.

4. Additionally unlike you and those that exploit the mission system for self gain, I am not here to play Alt Universe.

Looks like my math is pretty solid, at least way better than yours...

 

 

I have seen our tower from as far out as 15km and our spacestation from like 5.5km away. Just depends on the patch.

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On 11/19/2021 at 8:59 PM, Zarcata said:

which centre? We, the active players, determine the centre. If market 6 is suddenly surrounded by empty tiles and no one wants to sell there anymore, it is easy to simply move on to other markets to build up a supply there.

Alioth was mostly chosen because it was free and easy to get there at the beginning and at any time from Santuary after the start of the game, and also because it is a more friendly planet, unlike Madis.

Another feature: it is located in the confirmed permanent safe zone. Therefore, it is probably not an option for many players to settle somewhere else, because all other moons and planets eventually fall victim to PvP.

If there is another solar system (if that should ever come again), this could be a new attempt to choose a new home there, should there be a safezone, if it is nicer or more interesting there than on Alioth.

But I think many players really just want to build for themselves to relax and enjoy their free time. Why the developers now feel an urge to tell players how to play just shows that they don't know what playing is anymore. Unfortunately, a lot of people in our society are just dead beings who follow their 0815 daily routine.

When the game had a critical mass of players that was fine.  All 10 market districts were active and sell orders regularly sold in other markets.

Since 0.23 there aren't really enough people playing any more to support this.   I've actually tried setting up alternative market hub locations (setting up about 70 orders in one place for complementing things) and the sell orders rarely sell anything at all until inflation makes them ridiculously cheap (at which point someone probably just re-lists them at district 6).

But really by 'the centre' I meant 'the place where new players spawn and start out'.  Because if new players start in a planet which is 80% occupied and all the remaining tiles are bad then they have a big hill to climb before they can start having fun.

I do completely agree that telling the players how to play was the single biggest mistake NQ ever made.  Instead of looking at the game which was emerging and building on it JC decided things were not emerging in the way he wanted and we got 0.23.

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13 hours ago, Creator said:



2. Between all 12 planets you have approximately 730,000 - 750,000 tiles in the solar system not counting moons, which they themselves have 3,000 - 5,000 tiles each. So you have enough tiles for 37,500 players to have 20 a piece. Considering EVE online has 22,000 active players... you would be talking about DU being twice as popular as Eve.

 

Really?  You're going to compare this with EVE?  Eve online has 22,000 *concurrent players logged in at any one time* from a pool of over 400,000 *active subscribers*.  Since the game has been running for a very long time, the number of players who have ever been subscribed is going to be well over 1 million.

DU could be a fraction as popular as EVE and run out of tiles.

I do take the point that there are more tiles than I thought, and of course people can use all the planets or DU can add more solar systems.  But there are big advantages in locating people close to one another and allowing huge chunks of the game to be locked away like this risks DU becoming more like Wurm online than EVE .  You'd log in and have to spend hours finding a distant sanctuary tile then grind to get enough money to afford a ship which can take you far enough out of the starting area to find space to build in which is near active players.  And if you play long enough you're surrounded by unsubbed players and need to move in order to be in an active area again.

 

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2 hours ago, Zeddrick said:

Really?  You're going to compare this with EVE?  Eve online has 22,000 *concurrent players logged in at any one time* from a pool of over 400,000 *active subscribers*.  Since the game has been running for a very long time, the number of players who have ever been subscribed is going to be well over 1 million.

DU could be a fraction as popular as EVE and run out of tiles.

I do take the point that there are more tiles than I thought, and of course people can use all the planets or DU can add more solar systems.  But there are big advantages in locating people close to one another and allowing huge chunks of the game to be locked away like this risks DU becoming more like Wurm online than EVE .  You'd log in and have to spend hours finding a distant sanctuary tile then grind to get enough money to afford a ship which can take you far enough out of the starting area to find space to build in which is near active players.  And if you play long enough you're surrounded by unsubbed players and need to move in order to be in an active area again.

 


My point overall is we are in violent agreement, none of us want to see dead planets with abandoned of junk all over. Where I take issue is when the system punishes someone with gaming goals that are community based trying to build an event location for player created gameplay, and logs in nearly every day for two years. (the very concept we were sold on). Especially when it doesn't solve the problem the Dev's are trying to fix, people exploiting the game and hurting future players. 

I had before this update my little tiny pocket of the universe. (approximately 0.0026% of it.) People get all up in arms about me being a land hoarder, when we know damn well there are people exploiting the game in various ways the dev's aren't doing a thing about, that hold billions of quanta and hundreds of tiles just to lock other players out of resources.

Pretty sure I'm not the problem, so I get pretty salty when people act like I am ruining their gameplay, when I had dedicated so much time to trying to make a place that could give them more to do than scoop ore.

( Also yes I took a couple months off at one point to take a break from DU due to RL life schedule, just want to throw this in there before some petty asshole goes digging up some old post or something somewhere, saying... YOU DIDN'T LOG IN EVERY DAY!!!!) ?

 

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56 minutes ago, Creator said:


My point overall is we are in violent agreement, none of us want to see dead planets with abandoned of junk all over. Where I take issue is when the system punishes someone with gaming goals that are community based trying to build an event location for player created gameplay, and logs in nearly every day for two years. (the very concept we were sold on). Especially when it doesn't solve the problem the Dev's are trying to fix, people exploiting the game and hurting future players. 

I had before this update my little tiny pocket of the universe. (approximately 0.0026% of it.) People get all up in arms about me being a land hoarder, when we know damn well there are people exploiting the game in various ways the dev's aren't doing a thing about, that hold billions of quanta and hundreds of tiles just to lock other players out of resources.

Pretty sure I'm not the problem, so I get pretty salty when people act like I am ruining their gameplay, when I had dedicated so much time to trying to make a place that could give them more to do than scoop ore.

( Also yes I took a couple months off at one point to take a break from DU due to RL life schedule, just want to throw this in there before some petty asshole goes digging up some old post or something somewhere, saying... YOU DIDN'T LOG IN EVERY DAY!!!!) ?

 

 

NQ created the hoarding mindset by promising PvP and Territory Wars that is basically the whole reason people are hoarding mass amounts of resources and Quanta for whenever your ship(s) get ganked or eventually NQ lets the PvP crowd come kick down your sand castle and steal your shovels and castle molds.

 

NQ at the same time never created a scanning system as much as making it so you could potentially run around with 3 scanners at once or dropping blueprints of ships doing the same thing scanning mass tiles, buying up juice tiles, or easily identifying mega nodes by showing numbers rather than imposing limits to aid in strip mining and haording.

 

with all the loopholes, expoits, and compounding the mindset of you need 1000 times more than you think you do since the losses are harsh when you lose ships or eventually your base(s). Its the build up to throwing away everything you own that drives it since it takes so long to amass wealth, progress via talents/possessions, build an industry to support yourself, and a base to opperate out of before you can ever really think about PvP unless you get a big score. Those days are long gone since PvPer chased off most if not all the prey.

 

 

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1 hour ago, HangerHangar said:

Considering people are complaining about running out of tiles, I’m assuming NQ has officially announced that they aren’t doing multiple systems anymore or even the most devoted to the game don’t have faith we’re ever getting multiple systems.

 

I could be wrong but I believe I remember seeing JC talking about how he wasnt happy with how the hexes lined up and wanted the geometry reset to fix an issue that worked just fine the way it was and making the geometry more complex along with more complex vertex manipulation along with adding flora props pretty much killed the chance of having other systems.

 

Had they reset the world geometry, kept vertex manipulation as was, got rid of teraforming or had a system that carved out cores when dropped and filled them back in or just adapted the landsape within a certain heigh with an auto foundation that cost dirt, snow, stone, or some kind of voxel you wanted it to place that also was removed when you pick up the core/TU. If they added harsh voxelmancy limits with the system they have per tile it would have saved enough perforamance which they claimed was why this needed to happen in in the first place without adding it back in and making it worse without any real limitation that wont eventually lead to bad performance even if mining isnt in the game beyond asteroids since its the same system just in space leading to the same performance hits.

 

Any new system is basically doubling the performance hits and will never happen or if it does a ton of limitations, red tape, sinks, etc will come into the game to make it happen.

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5 hours ago, HangerHangar said:

Considering people are complaining about running out of tiles, I’m assuming NQ has officially announced that they aren’t doing multiple systems anymore or even the most devoted to the game don’t have faith we’re ever getting multiple systems.

 

Probably just not a priority which makes sense, the current system is plenty large enough for the population.

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On 11/19/2021 at 12:45 PM, Zarcata said:

Do you really think that all beta keys will remain free forever? At the latest with the release of the game, all beta keys may be converted into normal subscription accounts. There will be a flood of orphaned multiaccounts because players would suddenly have to pay real money.

 

Just using the tile number of here as an example since the new geometry update who knows how that will change the numbers and dont want to log on PTS to check.

 

say there are 259,472 tiles on Alioth. Every other planet is smaller with moons smaller then that. If every tile was grabbed as a cluster there would still be 37,067 people needed to grab a single cluster. Even if the people there just grabbed a tile for Malachite, Limestone, and Acrinite and nothing else there is still 86,491 tiles. Say people build a cluster around each of those 3 mats providing there is enough for 86k people to have a tile for all 3 mats and they put down a cluster its still 12,355.8 people it can support just on Alioth which is more than this game can support in most cases.

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