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Underhook

Ore Refining Mass Broken? Devs please look

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I think the mass(kg) of ore v's mass(kg) of  pure is broken.  That said its possible I'm missing something obvious.  Let me explain and maybe the community can let me know if this is an issue or if I'm just seeing this wrongly.

Lets take Coal as our example:

1L of Coal has a mass of 1.35kg

1L of Carbon has a mass of 2.27kg  (I do appreciate that a refined ore should have more mass.  but keep reading)

We make 45L of Carbon from 65L of Coal Sooooooo

Coal  1.35kg x 65L = 87.75kg

Carbon  2.27kg x 45L = 102.15kg

difference is 14.4kg

So, we threw away 20L of volume and gained 14.4kg total mass.  As far as I am aware that's impossible.  The total mass would have to be lighter.

Why does this matter.  Well I was watching a bit of Markee Dragon on youtube today and he was trying to decide whether or not to refine ore on the planet he mined it on before transport.  Very important to maximise profits especially if you are using warp cores.  He was having a really hard time understanding which was better, comparing litres vs mass etc.  Thats when it hit me.  Half the pures have more total mass in 45L  than the 65 litres they were refined from.  

Have I got it wrong or is this an issue?

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1 hour ago, ZeeckZero said:

well 1 liter volume of feathers is lighter than 1 liter volume of lead

So 1L of material x does not weigh the same as 1L of material y

 

Please read my post again.  I understand that say 1L of "y" (refined product) will weigh more than 1L of "X" What is happening here is  the final product weighs more than all of the inputs combined.  So lets say 20L of feathers with a combined weight of 10kg makes 1L of lead weighing 15kg.  Assuming 100% efficiency that's still a magic 5kg of lead.

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Good catch! The mass conversions are off. Mass should not increase with conversion. If anything mass should be lost due to conversion inefficiencies.

 

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2 hours ago, JayleBreak said:

In the DualUniverse, conservation of mass is not a hard and fast law of nature.

I guess that could be the fudge answer that one could use.  

Here is the thing.  If miners refine on remote planets because it increases profit.  It gives a chance for pirates and PvP play.  So, if they fix it.  Game play options increase and the universe makes sense.

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I found this out by mistake the third day of soft release because I was thinking logically. If I mine it and refined it I should be able to fit more in the container, nope, every time you refine, you gain more refine material without skills, plus the oxygen and nitrogen. Even more with skills cause you use less ore and yield more refine. So in reality you are better off just packing an L container with ore, then refine it into 2 L containers (oxygen and nitrogen in the second container plus the extra refine ore). Didn’t really bother me that much even tho logically refined product should yield less not more.

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6 hours ago, Underhook said:

I think the mass(kg) of ore v's mass(kg) of  pure is broken.  That said its possible I'm missing something obvious.  Let me explain and maybe the community can let me know if this is an issue or if I'm just seeing this wrongly.

Lets take Coal as our example:

1L of Coal has a mass of 1.35kg

1L of Carbon has a mass of 2.27kg  (I do appreciate that a refined ore should have more mass.  but keep reading)

We make 45L of Carbon from 65L of Coal Sooooooo

Coal  1.35kg x 65L = 87.75kg

Carbon  2.27kg x 45L = 102.15kg

difference is 14.4kg

So, we threw away 20L of volume and gained 14.4kg total mass.  As far as I am aware that's impossible.  The total mass would have to be lighter.

Why does this matter.  Well I was watching a bit of Markee Dragon on youtube today and he was trying to decide whether or not to refine ore on the planet he mined it on before transport.  Very important to maximise profits especially if you are using warp cores.  He was having a really hard time understanding which was better, comparing litres vs mass etc.  Thats when it hit me.  Half the pures have more total mass in 45L  than the 65 litres they were refined from.  

Have I got it wrong or is this an issue?

Is it really an issue? It gives you a choice - haul ore - so you have less weight for the same volume or haul pure element so you have more use out of the same volume but weight more. All realism (thats a game after all, if i can stomach warp travel, i can stomach mass discrepancies) aside - for me this is fair trade in hauling.  

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1 hour ago, Iorail said:

I found this out by mistake the third day of soft release because I was thinking logically. If I mine it and refined it I should be able to fit more in the container, nope, every time you refine, you gain more refine material without skills, plus the oxygen and nitrogen. Even more with skills cause you use less ore and yield more refine. So in reality you are better off just packing an L container with ore, then refine it into 2 L containers (oxygen and nitrogen in the second container plus the extra refine ore). Didn’t really bother me that much even tho logically refined product should yield less not more.

It depends.  Some ore like quartz.  Its better to refine it first.  

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25 minutes ago, Elrood said:

Is it really an issue? It gives you a choice - haul ore - so you have less weight for the same volume or haul pure element so you have more use out of the same volume but weight more. All realism (thats a game after all, if i can stomach warp travel, i can stomach mass discrepancies) aside - for me this is fair trade in hauling.  

True that the game is science fiction not realism.  Good science fiction in general follows science to some degree to make it feel possible.  When we are getting basic math wrong it kinda breaks a feeling of realism (for me).  The big issue for me though id that the game seems to want us to be smart, to work out ways to get an edge etc.  Refining on a (non safe) planet is a risk.  It means that you either have to accept loss if you get attacked or take measures to protect your assets.  It creates game play.  If  it pays more to just land.  Hide in a hole and fly out again.  Well that seems bizarre.  High risk and effort should give greater rewards, shouldn't it?

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1 hour ago, Underhook said:

True that the game is science fiction not realism.  Good science fiction in general follows science to some degree to make it feel possible.  When we are getting basic math wrong it kinda breaks a feeling of realism (for me).  The big issue for me though id that the game seems to want us to be smart, to work out ways to get an edge etc.  Refining on a (non safe) planet is a risk.  It means that you either have to accept loss if you get attacked or take measures to protect your assets.  It creates game play.  If  it pays more to just land.  Hide in a hole and fly out again.  Well that seems bizarre.  High risk and effort should give greater rewards, shouldn't it?

In that light, you definitely got a point. 

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It makes sense to refine T2+ ores if you are only trying to bring the T2 materials back. If I want just Sodium, I'm going to refine the Natron and bring the pure sodium back while leaving the carbon behind. I'll be able to stuff more pure sodium in my ship.

 

Finally the capacity of many ships is constrained by either volume or weight. So for me, reducing the volume is what I'm going for. I don't care about increasing the weight at all.

 

I get that it breaks fundamental laws of physics - but so do many things in this game like the ability to casually grab hydrogen anywhere.

 

I do think that the current refining 'compacting' the ore at the cost of increasing weight makes sense as a game element - even if it makes no scientific sense. 

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8 hours ago, Underhook said:

Please read my post again.  I understand that say 1L of "y" (refined product) will weigh more than 1L of "X" What is happening here is  the final product weighs more than all of the inputs combined.  So lets say 20L of feathers with a combined weight of 10kg makes 1L of lead weighing 15kg.  Assuming 100% efficiency that's still a magic 5kg of lead.

ahh yes, im sorry i see now what you are talking about, makes no sense to have 5 kg of ore and rock, refine it to get pure ore and end up with 10kg

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13 hours ago, Mordgier said:

It makes sense to refine T2+ ores if you are only trying to bring the T2 materials back. If I want just Sodium, I'm going to refine the Natron and bring the pure sodium back while leaving the carbon behind. I'll be able to stuff more pure sodium in my ship.

 

Finally the capacity of many ships is constrained by either volume or weight. So for me, reducing the volume is what I'm going for. I don't care about increasing the weight at all.

 

I get that it breaks fundamental laws of physics - but so do many things in this game like the ability to casually grab hydrogen anywhere.

 

I do think that the current refining 'compacting' the ore at the cost of increasing weight makes sense as a game element - even if it makes no scientific sense. 

In the case of Sodium and Calcium it is indeed better to process the ore 1st as the final product has less total mass than the starting mass.  However, Chromium and Copper both have more total mass than the sum of all their inputs with even when we account for throwing away the by products.  So, refining them actually incurs a penalty for transport.  Its got to be an oversight as it only applies to half the minerals.

As far as compacting the ore increasing weight.  That makes sense in a n identical volume.  Same volume but more mass so its heavier.  But what we have here makes no sense.  I compact 2 kg of milk and get 4kg of cheese,  where does the extra come from.

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Just to drive home my point that this should be fixed.

Most of us probably know Chromium is heavy 7.19kg/L

Yes its one of the ones where its mass is far greater than the mass of all its inputs  (if we count the iron by product its even worse).

The ore Chromite is just 4.54kg/L

It takes 65L of Chromite to make 45L of Chromium so that's just under 70% of the volume become the pure.

Because this is a heavy product.  Transport (especially in atmo is an important consideration)

Lets say we have a big ship and can carry 10t

10t of Chromium is 1390L

10t of Chromite is 2200L

When we refine 2200L of Chromite we get 1540L of Chromium.

Yes thats right this travisty of physics means that you transport more Chromium in raw for than when its refined not only that but for the one shipment you will also get the 250L of iron by product.

 

 

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