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So, when I was figuring out how the Department of Justice for the Terran Union would work I came across a problem.

 

1, how would we enforce player punishments,

2, how would we stop players from committing crimes in the first place.

 

So, I came up with several ideas, each with their own stipulations:

 

1, we imprison players (in cases such as multiple intentional team killings) in special tile sections designed to allow imprisoned persons to spawn there and allow the player to leave the faction at any time but force asset seizure for any items and or ships inside the TU.
2, we create a tier system to limit the privileges of players inside the TU. Such as allowing people to take on certain jobs and such. A person would be promoted and demoted over time in the system and would have certain jobs with-held depending on their rank.
3, we just straight up exile the user in which would be very efficient but extremely hazardous. 
4, we do an asset forfeiture in which their vehicles, materials, or property is seized by the state and transferred into state-funds, almost like a fine.

Any comments on this would be appreciated as I'd like a think tank to just mull it over. 

Ruling Terran Union Supreme Court Justice,
ShaylixLinx

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Just configure your RDMS accordingly and strip him naked of any rights to use/interact with elements/constructs/bases/storage containers from your Organisation. 

 

 

Another topic is how to control other ppl from other orgs in your territory - since you don't have direct RDMS control over them

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2 hours ago, Lethys said:

Another topic is how to control other ppl from other orgs in your territory - since you don't have direct RDMS control over them

Where did it say that RDMS only applies to people in the same organization?  I do not remember seeing that.

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19 minutes ago, Ben Fargo said:

Where did it say that RDMS only applies to people in the same organization?  I do not remember seeing that.

Oh you can apply RDMS rules unto strangers like giving them access to terminals for example or storage. No org would allow strangers access to such  things  though, because ppl would just Take everything out of that storage.

 

And you can't force them to leave or force them to do stuff. Nor can you restrict weapons use afaik. 

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On 8/3/2018 at 2:31 AM, ShaylixLinx said:

 

1, how would we enforce player punishments,

2, how would we stop players from committing crimes in the first place.

 

 

1. I would enforce player punishments by imposing fines on players who commit crimes. Basically if a player commits a crime, then they have to pay a fine. Until they pay I would first lock them out everything using the RDMS, including buy/selling on the Markets, Mining, Building, freeze all assets, seize any ship, and property they have in all TU territory. That would also include any companies they control or run. Player should be allow to offer there Ships, property, or resources like Ore/Material as payment at market value.

 

If the player can not pay, then I would give the option of working to pay off the fine. Basically community service in TU. So they could Mine some Ore for the Org, or do some cargo runs, or Patrol duty with the defense force, etc.... Until the fine is paid off.

 

2. Its hard to prevent players from committing crimes, even with a strong law enforcement structure, and security measures. All you can really do is put policies in place to at as a deterrent, to discourage crimes. Like for minor crimes you could raise the taxes they have to pay on selling in markets. But also the things I mentioned above, could be used to make committing crime the most undesirable thing to do.

 

3. In an extreme case for player that are just career criminals, you can always place a bounty on their heads, and excommunicate them entirely from you're Org with a "Kill on Site" order if they breach you territory, aimed only at those players.

 

So basically if a player commits a crime.

Seize all assets, property, and lock them out of doing business until they pay a fine;

If they can not pay, then community service, and/or handing over assets is offered as an option.

if non of the above works then excommunicate the player, place a bounty on them, and permanently seize all property and assets.

 

As a side note, I would also suggest incentivizing good behavior. Like players who have a great record can get access to perks, or lower taxes in Markets for some rare cases. Even players that take the initiative to stop criminals could get small perks, or some kind of bonus. It doesn't have to be big or elaborate. Never under estimate the power of white knights to help maintain stability.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

 

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1 hour ago, supermega said:

So basically if a player commits a crime.

Seize all assets, property, and lock them out of doing business until they pay a fine;

If they can not pay, then community service, and/or handing over assets is offered as an option.

if non of the above works then excommunicate the player, place a bounty on them, and permanently seize all property and assets.

Those things only work when ppl commit crimes with their main chars though - and are completely useless against alts or others. Ppl will use alts for trading, production, mining and other stuff anyway imho. 

 

But ofc you can restrict at least the mains of the "troublemakers" to do anything, while the player himself isn't restricted at all

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1 minute ago, Lethys said:

Those things only work when ppl commit crimes with their main chars though - and are completely useless against alts or others. Ppl will use alts for trading, production, mining and other stuff anyway imho.

 

That's basically meta gaming, and it happens. All an org can do is track down the alt accounts using various means, then expose them publicly and hit those alts with the same punishments. Meta gaming is a whole other world, but there are players who have experience with that. So Orgs aren't completely helpless against it.

 

But, I wouldn't worry about alts to much. Some players may just want to do pirating on one character, and be a Miner on there Alt characters, Its common. If its all in good fun, it wouldn't be to much of a problem. I would just treat each character accordingly. But, that's really at the Orgs discretion to decide how they want to handle meta gamers.

 

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9 minutes ago, supermega said:

That's basically meta gaming, and it happens. All an org can do is track down the alt accounts using various means, then expose them publicly and hit those alts with the same punishments. Meta gaming is a whole other world, but there are players who have experience with that. So Orgs aren't completely helpless against it.

If they find them, sure. All I'm saying is that such measures like cutting ppl Off from markets or "jurisdiction" as a whole doesn't work that well in Du. Even if ppl find all my alts i can just generate new ones to get access to their markets

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1 minute ago, Lethys said:

If they find them, sure. All I'm saying is that such measures like cutting ppl Off from markets or "jurisdiction" as a whole doesn't work that well in Du. Even if ppl find all my alts i can just generate new ones to get access to their markets

 

I think its really up to the Orgs on how they choose to handle meta gamers. Some Orgs may not care about alts, as long as the character you're using is law abiding. Other orgs may track you down all over internet and/or real life, and expose you. You can create as many alts as you want, and orgs can always eventually track them all down if they chose, its your time and money if you choose to play the Meta game. I personally avoid that sort of thing, and just play games to have fun. To each his own. Meta gaming is a deep rabbit whole, and it gets dark down there sometimes lol.

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10 hours ago, supermega said:

freeze all assets, seize any ship, and property they have in all TU territory

Not sure how you can firstly identify all the assets, nor 'seize' them. (Besides physically picking up a space ship and hauling it off to some sort of holding yard.)

 

Seems like a lot of effort to cover a possibly small fine.

 

Secondly, not sure how you would lock them of from all markets. Maybe from some you run but you cant block them from all markets.

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17 hours ago, supermega said:

You can create as many alts as you want, and orgs can always eventually track them all down if they chose[...]

 

I realize you probably had specific scenarios and situations in mind as you wrote it, but on the other hand I just sat there and thought: "It's not like organizations can really do much in that regard if you keep quiet."

 

Of course, it again depends on many aspects, factors and the specific situation in the end but, say, if our friend Lethys here gets banned (on his known 'main') from, say, the markets of a trading outpost or even a big city where a number of people always come by, then he can just circumvent that by making a new character. If bans can only be applied to characters and not user accounts (encompassing all their characters), he can literally run up there and interact again. If he doesn't give it away himself and if the managers of that place do not demand each one to whitelist with specific criteria including a voice sample (even that can be faked), then how will they 'track him down'? :P

 

I do not speak about what would be illegal measures here in reality, on that note. "Tracking down" only really becomes possible in my eyes if enough hints are dropped and / or if there was an integrated mechanic to identify what character belongs to what forum or account user. And even then it kinda stops there if you use a different account altogether.

 

Unless you have specific things in mind in how orgs "can always eventually track them all down if they chose", I think it's really easy to circumvent such restrictions with new alts.

 

But...

 

17 hours ago, supermega said:

Meta gaming is a deep rabbit whole, and it gets dark down there sometimes lol.

 

... I would agree that this is indeed a deep dark hole. At times.

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@CoreVamore

Why wouldn't you be able to identify the assets of an Org member? Even though you really wouldn't technically need to identify all assets, maybe just enough so it hurts? Although, using RDMS you can lock any player out from basic things in a controlled territory. Just a thought.

 

I wasn't think of "hauling of property, I was imagining there are other options to dealing with asset acquisition like: encasing property in voxels, cutting the power, destroying it, or hacking the RDMS if that's an option.

 

I'd was imagining that the crime would fit the punishment, so no extreme measure for a small fine. lol

 

I didn't say anything about locking all markets, just markets for the Org in which they committed the crime. It could also effect Allies depending on Org polices. I would imagine Allied Orgs would look out for each out.

 

Overall, its up to the Orgs to decide how they would dictate and enforce their policies.

 

 

 

@Warden

I kind of all ready covered a few of the things you mentioned, and I could talk all day about the flaws in you're arguments, but its seems like were just talking in circles at this point. lol

 

Alt accounts are fine, but I'm not a fan of the whole meta-gaming thing to avoid game mechanics and consequences. Meta gaming just seems like a form of cheating the game, and that's kinda lame, and does nothing but create a breeding ground for trolls. If some people choose to play that why, then to each his own.

 

I feel like this is getting a bit off topic.

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7 minutes ago, CoreVamore said:

I still want to know how you imprison someone. Afaik you cant grab a person which would be the first step to holding them.

 You would not ever imprison anyone, when did I ever say you would? LOL

 

Edit: An why would you want to? I'm against that sort of thing personally.

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Just now, CoreVamore said:

Its the topic of this thread....

Oh right, fair point lol.

I'm personally against imprisonment, I think Orgs should use other creative means for punishments.

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10 minutes ago, supermega said:

Why wouldn't you be able to identify the assets of an Org member? Even though you really wouldn't technically need to identify all assets, maybe just enough so it hurts? Although, using RDMS you can lock any player out from basic things in a controlled territory. Just a thought.

Unless the rdms system made said assets glow/change colour then yes it would be hard to identify a members items. On the other hand if items acted like they do in Second Life where u can return all items to the member you better hope none of his/her items arent core components of your org....

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@CoreVamore

 

I see, I just imagine that an organized Org would be aware of at least major projects and constructs in there territory. An locking them out using RDMS would create a barrier for them to get assets, Even if you can't locate them.

 

For identification I imagine you can always do it manually by just walking up an scanning the core unit. But, really it wouldn't be necessary to get all assets, just the major expensive stuff that could be found, and leave the rest up to free game. Its really based on the situation. Like, If the Org member in question is a high profile member, with lots of assets, power, and influence. Then most likely that would result in a all out Org Civil War anyway lol.

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4 minutes ago, supermega said:

An locking them out using RDMS would create a barrier for them to get assets, Even if you can't locate them.

Just pray they dont have lua access to their constructs etc or they might be able to do something similar to you.... for example if they were the builder that built your high security buildings and removed group access from all the doors.... or shuts down the power supply (or self destructs it).... or  turns the large city gun systems to raise the city to the ground....

 

Just saying  :)

 

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2 hours ago, supermega said:

and I could talk all day about the flaws in you're arguments,

By all means, do so - if you want. It's part of a debate. Sometimes counter-arguments can clarify misunderstandings or create room for more debate. Maybe I missed things prior, in turn. Overlooked them or "did not get them".

 

I'd still like to know how "orgs can always eventually track them all down if they chose", if you know how, that is.

 

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@Warden  Was just trying to help the OP by giving some ideas/suggestions, so no need for a debate. Take it as you will.

 

Anyway, the original topic is about "Imprisonment and Judicial Punishments". So far you haven't added anything of substance to that topic. I would love to know your ideas for how an Org can handle that sort of thing.

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@supermega

 

If you look at the context earlier, it fits well to the general topic in my book. If we ask how we can punish players, then debating alts and circumvention of punishments are related aspects because it could then allow you to question effectiveness of punishments you come up with in the first place. On that note: How could organizations detect alts (eventually), what do you think? I'll coax it out of you eventually! :P

 

---

 

As for the "first step", I find most things people could come up with so far to be questionable. I tried to come up with some ideas myself when it became a potentially pressing matter for the future due to a police related side project. But unless the game mechanics end up like in first person shooters (which is relatively ruled out by now), classic mechanics like "stop, frisk, confiscate" are out of the picture. So is potential "imprisonment" unless the game, in its own frame, allows such mechanics to be forced on other players.

 

If not, all I think you can hope for is "voluntary imprisonment" or "(voluntary) forced labor" - next to just excluding people from services, of course - or as a way to let them redeem access or reputation.

 

In a nutshell, for me it's this for now, more or less:

 

- Measures of punishment are relatively uncertain yet

- Intrusive measures seen in other games or mods are likely out of the question until proven otherwise

- Toughest punishments players could expect is being banned from membership or services as far as I know

- Regaining access might be accompanied by fines or certain actions you have to go through, in which the incentive to do so would be regaining certain privileges or access to services, but forcing such measures may not be guaranteed

 

Less abstract, someone f...s up in a city and you make it so that they perhaps can still run around in the city, but cannot use most services that are vital. Maybe you can also ban them from entry into the zone altogether via the right construction methods (needing to get through the right doors whitelisted or not blacklisted) or in general as it is a gameplay feature that bans entry automatically as soon as you try to step into the area in question, like an invisible shield.

 

And that could be it in most situations. That would perhaps be already punishment (enough). And if some want to regain access, they have to do certain things, in which the incentive to do labor or sit in prison comes from the own players, which to me is like a "voluntary sentence".

 

The question is, can you force this through other measures as there likely won't be any active gameplay mechanics for this? That would be up to how you do it as player (faction). You can also try doing the same by threatening bounties and making their life miserable if they don't go through with whatever you have in mind for them, like prison or manual labor.

 

If that works just as well, I don't know. Probably not as well or often as when you, as banned person, develop the own incentive to basically get yourself unbanned.

 

 

 

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On 8/4/2018 at 6:21 PM, CoreVamore said:

Secondly, not sure how you would lock them of from all markets. Maybe from some you run but you cant block them from all markets.

3

The purpose isn't to block someone from a marketplace (even though that is exactly what is happening) but to make it inconvenient. To make it feel as if they are not wanted here and should just give up and go somewhere else.

 

Early on in the game or in areas where certain services are sparse this tactic could be very effective since it could require a big sink of time or resources just to go to another planet or system to access another service. Of course, later on, or in high-density locations, this might be ineffective since you might just need to cross the street (into another hex) to be able to use those same services.

 

Who's to say the ripple effects this could have if the owner of one hex were to try and influence a nearby hex to convince them to restrict the criminal's access so as to better enforce their will. Maybe a bruised ego, maybe the final straw on the road to war.

 

Then again, there is always the underground and black markets that will inevitably pop up. It might cost you a little more, but if it is worth it, then you'll reason with yourself appropriately.

 

Check that, this is of convenience and value. Some people value their time or quanta and don't want to see it go to waste, they might submit and turn themselves in while others could give two shlacks and run since they have all the time and quanta in the world.

 

This is all in a game, yes, but time can be a tangible item.

 

How much value do you place on it?

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5 hours ago, DarkHorizon said:

Early on in the game or in areas where certain services are sparse this tactic could be very effective since it could require a big sink of time or resources just to go to another planet or system to access another service. Of course, later on, or in high-density locations, this might be ineffective since you might just need to cross the street (into another hex) to be able to use those same services.

 

Pretty sure all planets will have markets outside of the enforcers influence, so yes it would be an inconvenience for the the bad guy, but not as severe as people think it will be.

 

 

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Paying a 15-20 dollar membership for a game that is meant to be fun to be in... prison?

This is a pretty bad idea and the best option is to just not do prisons.

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