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dw_ace_918

Politics, Government and Player Voting Power

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@Nanoman I did read those devblogs. I have looked into different orgs also. I agree that there are large possibilities and options already planned for orgs. For me, the main focus of the game is Civilization Building, and rebuilding Civilization as well as a strong focus on community and player created content. I saw this from the kickstart to the devblog. Organizations don't seem to final and complete at this stage. I think a lot is assumed based on the standard player expectations and desires, which obviously have to be strongly considered into every aspect of the game I suppose. They did say there is a lot of risk they are talking in general to the creation of the game itself.  I also understand that it would be impassable to please everyone.

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@virtuozzo I can see the value of the quote tool if it's use well for small point on point organization in a response. You're alright man, you always have a lot to add to the conversation. I don't know if I'm the best person to argue those points. Does anyone think there's any value, in any way to this idea of community org or suggested tools?

Finally, I'll end with a quote:

"A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."

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On 5/1/2018 at 6:42 PM, CoreVamore said:

Um, just nope, it imposes limits on a sandbox game, which by its nature is open ended and can end up being communist, capitalist, democratic, fascist, demonic,. angelic, religious, agnostic etc etc etc.

 

The worlds/systems will be what they will be, and just like in the real world as DU expands, I'm sure there will be a mixture of the above throughout DU

 

If you want the above then join an org that wants the above. :D

 

Simplz ;)

 

Making rules about leader ship does impose limits on a sand box game you are totally right! but this does make me wonder, why the lack of automation ability? Lets look at this from another perspective, real world vs dual universe. The real world did have lots of manual workers manning large machines individually but that was in the industrial age, where coal power was the main source of electricity and steam was the main work horse of factories. Dual universe is on a much grander level of existence, there are space ships for crying out loud! I do see the reason for limiting pvp AI but as far as workers go, I think that AI or at least automation/ drones should be allowed. In the United States we have issues with employment and wages. This is because of the automation in blue color jobs like manufacturing and mining. However these are jobs people want because they make money from them. In dual universe you will be paying a subscription fee every month to play the game. Now I must ask this question, why would people pay to play a game every month where they do menial tasks. the point of Dual universe as I see it is to make a economy, this economy does not rely on people getting resources, it depends on people playing the game, and trading among-st each other. having menial jobs will not encourage people to play the game. The end result will be no-mans sky, a huge universes with no players to inhabit it.  Lets now look at other games, first of all Planet Side 2. Why does this game work? It is free to play but pay to win, those who play for free are grunts in an army. Those who pay are commanders or especially powerful players. Shooting and fighting is much more fun than mining resources with no end in sight. Next game: Minecraft. this is a game that dual universe is often compared to. so what is the point of mine craft? once again automation. mods are created in mine craft to have an even higher ability to automate mining and resource production. The economy's in Dual universe should not be based on man power but instead ingenuity and automation. although LUA script is somewhat limited it is still powerful enough to make simple AI's and is most defiantly powerful enough to control autonomous robots and drones. I made a LUA AI that learned in 5 generations how to play tetris almost perfectly. And I have also made robots do simple tasks With LUA. 

 

My final thought is that Automation will be what makes, or what breaks, the player count  in dual universe. 

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24 minutes ago, Thainz said:

Making rules about leader ship does impose limits on a sand box game you are totally right! but this does make me wonder, why the lack of automation ability? Lets look at this from another perspective, real world vs dual universe. The real world did have lots of manual workers manning large machines individually but that was in the industrial age, where coal power was the main source of electricity and steam was the main work horse of factories. Dual universe is on a much grander level of existence, there are space ships for crying out loud! I do see the reason for limiting pvp AI but as far as workers go, I think that AI or at least automation/ drones should be allowed. In the United States we have issues with employment and wages. This is because of the automation in blue color jobs like manufacturing and mining. However these are jobs people want because they make money from them. In dual universe you will be paying a subscription fee every month to play the game. Now I must ask this question, why would people pay to play a game every month where they do menial tasks. the point of Dual universe as I see it is to make a economy, this economy does not rely on people getting resources, it depends on people playing the game, and trading among-st each other. having menial jobs will not encourage people to play the game. The end result will be no-mans sky, a huge universes with no players to inhabit it.  Lets now look at other games, first of all Planet Side 2. Why does this game work? It is free to play but pay to win, those who play for free are grunts in an army. Those who pay are commanders or especially powerful players. Shooting and fighting is much more fun than mining resources with no end in sight. Next game: Minecraft. this is a game that dual universe is often compared to. so what is the point of mine craft? once again automation. mods are created in mine craft to have an even higher ability to automate mining and resource production. The economy's in Dual universe should not be based on man power but instead ingenuity and automation. although LUA script is somewhat limited it is still powerful enough to make simple AI's and is most defiantly powerful enough to control autonomous robots and drones. I made a LUA AI that learned in 5 generations how to play tetris almost perfectly. And I have also made robots do simple tasks With LUA. 

 

My final thought is that Automation will be what makes, or what breaks, the player count  in dual universe. 

Always be careful in establishing analogies between the real and the virtual world. Yes, it is a sandbox, so it is a pressure cooker of human behaviour served with a sauce of environment and a few touches of mechanical spices. But the real world is already being made, and has been subject to that for a great while. This virtual world isn't even there yet, so choices for development paths remain. 

 

In regards to automation:

 

1. Effort makes for a deeper game experience

2. It promotes a lot of people towards teaming up

3. It stimulates others to invest in multiple accounts

4. The game is in its infancy so there is no real roadmap yet as to what players will be enabled to in regards to automation

 

One of the potential pitfalls of DU is in its crafting / voxel system. In terms of implementation it attracts a lot of player types who lean towards solo / introverted gameplay. Good game design can overcome that, and DU is outlined to be pretty open and brutal so a lot of that can easily be overcome by means of positive stimuli for such player types towards multiplay / organisational play. 

 

Automation is a big part of discussions on that. But that is NQ's domain really. Their currently available statements and information on LUA scripting do appear to provide interesting opportunities in these regards. But it will be a fine line to walk between human engagement and automation of processes. Labour in DU strikes me as not so much a balance between the two, but a combination. I guess we'll find out somewhere during beta. 

 

The same is likely to apply to economics. But there it does get a bit more murky. Every game attracts abuse. DU will attract people who try to abuse the economics angle, and since NQ gets to learn from quite a few previous sandboxes and their historic challenges on these matters I'm getting the idea that economics is more likely to be a domain of teamwork, rather than individual + automation. 

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3 hours ago, dw_ace_918 said:

I also understand that it would be impassable to please everyone.

 

2 hours ago, dw_ace_918 said:

Does anyone think there's any value, in any way to this idea of community org or suggested tools?

 

This brings me back to my earlier question. I still don't see what you are proposing that isn't already possible with regular orgs, so I don't know what value you are trying to add in the first place, or in what way you are trying to please that isn't already planned for. I'm not sure you know either, actually.

 

Honestly the only thing I can think of is that you are trying to make the whole game conform to what you want, which of course is never going to happen. I'm not saying that you can't have what you want, but you can't make everyone else conform to it. Maybe I'm just reading you wrong. That's why I asked.

 

About automated production, that is planned for the game. There will be factory units and such for mass production even when you are offline.

Source: https://dualuniverse.gamepedia.com/Industrial_Unit

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@Nanoman thanks for the link.  As far as the idea I have been proposing, I tend to agree with you.  I can't preach player voting power and community then say except when I don't like the majority consensus against it.  If you wanted to dig through the forum, you probably would find the core of my reasoning and various aspects of how it would be different.  I'm pretty much stepping out of the way if anyone wanted to add to my side of this or offer up other ideas on it.

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15 minutes ago, dw_ace_918 said:

@Nanoman thanks for the link.  As far as the idea I have been proposing, I tend to agree with you.  I can't preach player voting power and community then say except when I don't like the majority consensus against it.  If you wanted to dig through the forum, you probably would find the core of my reasoning and various aspects of how it would be different.  I'm pretty much stepping out of the way if anyone wanted to add to my side of this or offer up other ideas on it.

Eh ... this has nothing to do with minority / majority consensus on how to design the game. As pointed out, what you envision in terms of boundaries and rules for behaviour and organisation already is possible. Within / with / by organisations and its members. 

 

You keep stepping out of the way yet you also keep coming back to this :) It makes me curious, do you feel that the sandbox concept might have an adverse effect on what you would like to see in a game? Or have you accepted that sandbox nature but find yourself looking for mechanisms / features which might enable you to structure an organisation along the lines of your ideas / wishes / ideal gameplay (which ideally could be multipurpose / reused for other purposes - like the vote mechanism discussed earlier)?

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Is not the default org favoring dictatorship? Even if one indents to create a democracy, currently there are no tools to do this. Additionally, any democracy would be a variation of a dictatorship because it would be designed by a single player or group that player choses to help. Finally, it is clear this concept of an org within games is the standard and fails to provide a true system of inclusiveness and equality within any org or in the game overall. So only the life, liberty and property as well as leadership, justice and security belong to the few and those they chose to provide it to.  Last note, why must every mmo game carry on the elitist org system model and fail to provide a truly diverse and player empowering solution.

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47 minutes ago, dw_ace_918 said:

Is not the default org favoring dictatorship? Even if one indents to create a democracy, currently there are no tools to do this.

As the specifics of whether or not the rdms system will have tools to allow popular voting systems of an org have not yet been released this statement is inherently false or NDA breaking.  

 

I will consider the terms organization, government, tribe, corporation, coop, commune, party, etc to be interchangeable.  They all have the same basic meaning with only variance in experiential association (different feelings based on your experience).  

 

I believe it would benefit the final game to have tools to allow for any type of governance the devs can find a way to accommodate.  However the idea that all members of the game have to belong to any specific type of organization is absolutism, and tyrannical no matter what type of governance that organization has.  I agree with a number of the other people here who do not want any rules outside of those necessary as decided by NQ to be applied to everyone. 

 

All types/sizes of organization/government are sets of rules that are set in place and ways to enforce those rules on the members.  Whoever is in charge (whether it be 1 person, a board, or all the members) make rules, need some means to enforce them (police/elders/enforcers/HR department/Boss), and a way to punish offenders (imprisoned/cast out/beat up/fired).

 

All rules take away liberty from people.  By default all people have as much liberty as they possibly can have.  When you start making rules you might protect people from each other's actions, but you have placed boundaries on every persons liberty as well.  The idea of making every person be a part of an org/gov by default means that you are reducing the baseline of how much freedom people have by default.  

 

I hope this helps you to understand why some others, and myself are against the idea of a government that all people are made a part of by default.

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1 hour ago, dw_ace_918 said:

Is not the default org favoring dictatorship? Even if one indents to create a democracy, currently there are no tools to do this. Additionally, any democracy would be a variation of a dictatorship because it would be designed by a single player or group that player choses to help.

I'm using phone so cant give you link, but you can search for RDMs ,it say pretty clear there.

 

NQ already give you tool for democracy already. It called 'legate'.

 

If it is dictator, legate will be set for one player or only a group to vote for the way of the org to go. If you want democracy, just legate everyone in org, everyone will have vote power. Then they can vote to choose who will be President/Prime minister/Leader of the org and give specific command which only that 'tag' can give without voting (they should talk about that decision before execute because if it angry major of member they can vote to demote or exile you ).

 

So I dont know what you want now for a system already in game.

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A person does not create a democracy. I guess it's pointless to suggest it for a game anyway. I'm just an outsider here I guess. I don't want to play Ark or Eve or whatever those are, I want to play DU.  I don't want to play forum games or organization games.

If I chose to be involved with an organization, if I submit my thoughts to forum, if I share my heart and soul, where is this community, where is the fun in any of this for me.

I have been patronized, made fun of, accused, misunderstood, and bullied here, not to mention the political stuff with the organizations, all but put off by this all.

So, great game, just leave all that crap out, because I can find a different game to invest my time and money into.

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2 hours ago, dw_ace_918 said:

A person does not create a democracy

What do you mean? It isnt a "personal org" , dont wrong about create org on website and create org in game. NQ already said create org in game will subject to RDMs and different than create org on website, and future they will add it later but now it isnt.

 

2 hours ago, dw_ace_918 said:

I want to play DU

Well this everyone want include me. But first we have to have a good foundation.

 

2 hours ago, dw_ace_918 said:

If I chose to be involved with an organization, if I submit my thoughts to forum, if I share my heart and soul, where is this community, where is the fun in any of this for me.

 

This part make me some confuse. Forum is a place for you to discussion, you can choose to practice or not. And about org, you dont have to, you can play solo or create your own, anything is possible

 

2 hours ago, dw_ace_918 said:

made fun of, accused, misunderstood, and bullied here

Well so terrible i'm sorry, but if my tone sound like bullied you i'm sorry. Because after all i'm not native English speaker so i only choose the simple word i can use to chat.

 

So in the end what is bothering in your mind ? Just telling here and i also with some great guy will help you to understand it.

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Okay i will try to not misunderstand you.

So you mean you want to create a democracy (which people will choose their own road ) org to vote for every matter include elect president right ?

 

Okay basically it can.

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@ShioriStein no, I'm not going to create any kind of gov type org. Maybe someone else will try, but I doubt to see a successful democracy ever in a game.

What I mean by "a person cannot create a democracy" is that a democracy is a dynamic born from a large group of people. So an organization owner would have to surrender their organization to the members and yield all authority to an agreed upon system based on what tools are available to do this.

Why would anyone do that? Where are the players who even value the ideals that would make it viable?

And when I say "all organizations are dictatorships by default" I mean that the organizations creator has complete power to make it whatever and chose who to give legit. You say of course, I made it, it's mine. Right, so it is, dictate it as you like, but don't tell me this is not favoring dictatorship.

I don't even care about organizations until they get in the way of how I want to play the game.

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Umu i can understand some of your point. You are right all the org power will be into the hand of those who create org from foundation so the people who join later will have "less" power.

 

But i think if the need arise people , who prefer democracy, will join together to create an org where everyone is legate. But as you say we "maybe" only see it in the mid of the game when people tired of dictator so they will join together but we never know when.

 

So you have a right point here but, truth is in long term i dont see any way better than what we know right now.  

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49 minutes ago, dw_ace_918 said:

So an organization owner would have to surrender their organization to the members and yield all authority to an agreed upon system based on what tools are available to do this.

Why would anyone do that? Where are the players who even value the ideals that would make it viable?

 

obviously there are people like that, and with the planned rights&duties system its completely possible to give other members the exact same rights as the founder (which wouldn't make it a democracy but an anarchy tho). It is indeed possible to create any currently known political system.

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@dw_ace_918 It is rule of civilization. It must be and will be but i dont know how will it go since it is a game where people just stop playing or keep playing that all.

Edited by ShioriStein
playing not player damnit
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@ShioriStein the civilization building aspects (specifically the building system) is what attracts me to this game. I know a lot of people are hungry for PvP, but mostly I want to build and test dynamic constructs, that will also be fun for PvP too.

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