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Question on losing inventory upon death

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I do not think DAC should be unlootable.  That implies it exists as an item in the game, but can not be stolen.  I think it should not be an object in the game at all.  The reason I say that is I like games to be immersive and I hate having things in the game that deliberately break it.  Having a payment for a game's subscription be an object in the game definitely breaks immersion.

 

I would recommend that the first time DAC are sold, they become bound to the account of the person who buys them.  That would allow them to serve their purpose of allowing people to exchange quanta for a subscription without leading to speculation by buying and selling them.

 

There will be many in-game items that we will be to trade and transport, so opportunities for risk and reward are already there.   Making DAC one more in-game item does not actually add any gameplay.  It just blurs the distinction between the game and real-life by letting people steal something that has actual value.

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Blueprints are NOT safe !

 

They are inventory items, and therefore will be lost when you die.

 

The only safe items in DU (other than the Quanta wallet) are those that are stored in a safe zone and never moved out of it.

 

And even in safe zones, the "safety" aspect is relative, because things can still be stolen under certain circumstances, unless kept in a container that only ONE person has access to.

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15 minutes ago, Ben Fargo said:

I do not think DAC should be unlootable.  That implies it exists as an item in the game, but can not be stolen.  I think it should not be an object in the game at all.  The reason I say that is I like games to be immersive and I hate having things in the game that deliberately break it.  Having a payment for a game's subscription be an object in the game definitely breaks immersion.

 

I would recommend that the first time DAC are sold, they become bound to the account of the person who buys them.  That would allow them to serve their purpose of allowing people to exchange quanta for a subscription without leading to speculation by buying and selling them.

 

There will be many in-game items that we will be to trade and transport, so opportunities for risk and reward are already there.   Making DAC one more in-game item does not actually add any gameplay.  It just blurs the distinction between the game and real-life by letting people steal something that has actual value.

This is effectively the same as unlootable DACs with a twist that the DAC cannot be resold.

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42 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

Blueprints are NOT safe !

That is correct. Blueprints are not safe. Master blueprints however have been planned to be account bound...(but nothing set in stone) Why are account bound master blueprints a good idea? Because information should never be lost in DU. 

 

I could go so far as treating master blueprints like DACs: unlootable until traded the first time. But since tradable blueprints can be spawned off a master blueprint (with permissions to make new master blueprints or not) I don't think it's necessary.

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1 minute ago, Kurock said:

That is correct. Blueprints are not safe. Master blueprints however have been planned to be account bound...(but nothing set in stone) Why are account bound master blueprints a good idea? Because information should never be lost in DU. 

 

I could go so far as treating master blueprints like DACs: unlootable until traded the first time. But since tradable blueprints can be spawned off a master blueprint (with permissions to make new master blueprints or not) I don't think it's necessary.

Just to be clear: Master Blueprints MIGHT be bound to account, that has not been decided yet, so it cannot be described as planned.

 

Also worth distinguishing between the "personal snapshot BP" and an actual Master BP. I believe those will be separate things, with the former not being tradeable or used for making copies (.i.e. personal use only).

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Frankly if you are out in the world carrying master blueprints you have every right to lose it.

 

The simplest way to deal with this is to have a vault like setup where the contents of the vault can be either DAC or Master Blueprints. These can be access anywhere and stored from anywhere. The vault is bound to the account and so can't be looted. If you choose to transport either in your inventory they can be looted/drop when you get killed.

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5 hours ago, Lethys said:

If DACs are unlootable then ppl can stockpile them forever and kill the market years later by dropping hundreds of DACs to the market.

While agreeing with most of your post, I don't think you are right about markets. I'd say it is a great deal more nuanced than you say, but ok, the availability to stockpile rises to everybody everywhere if they are unlootable.

It makes sense to make them lootable in general, but also absolutely safe to buy and consume as long as ALL players, including newcomers, are made aware of the dangers of having them simply in inventory.

 

However, I've not yet seen comments against the idea of 'safe until first trade'. My understanding is that DACs can be bought with cash and added to the game in some way. If this is possible anywhere, then there is not much scope to have market price differences in far-away places, as people will just introduce them with no risk whenever there is a short-term imbalance of supply and demand somewhere. The ability to transport safely until a first trade merely increases the number of people who will have reserves and take minor market opportunities if they come across them before a bigger price difference begins to set in.

 

The logic of this tends towards suggesting that purchasing of DACs with cash can only take place when an avatar is in an area guaranteed by NQ as safe - and transportation is dangerous. I would extend this to the DACs received from supporter packs too - with the exception that they stay safe until brought into the game in such a safe area. You could understand those as being 'safe until required', yes.

 

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If DACs are lootable, I'll simply keep one of my three available chars near Ark, and trade/use/store them just there. After all i doesn't matter which of my chars use it to extend my subscription. Probably the prices will be best there too, due to competition.

And because it's so simple, thus a lot of people will do that, it'll mean DAC trading outside safe zones will be just nonexistent.

 

Emergent gameplay gain = 0

Additional nuance for players = 1

 

 

56 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

Also worth distinguishing between the "personal snapshot BP" and an actual Master BP. I believe those will be separate things, with the former not being tradeable or used for making copies (.i.e. personal use only).

Exactly.

I think both master BP (unsafe) and slave BP (unsafe) will be both created out of snapshot (safe) BP. So you don't need to create master blueprint at all, unless you want to give/sell someone rights to copy it.

 

Otherwise I'll just create master blueprint, then create copies, then destroy master blueprint. Thus again leading to:

Emergent gameplay gain = 0

Additional nuance for players = 1

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1 hour ago, NanoDot said:

Also worth distinguishing between the "personal snapshot BP" and an actual Master BP. I believe those will be separate things, with the former not being tradeable or used for making copies (.i.e. personal use only).

Just to clarify more: a snapshot is not a blueprint. It was mentioned by JC in the DM21 interview. The relevant transcript can be found here:

This is getting a bit ridiculous.

 

Maybe we should ask NQ for an article explaining their intent with snapshots and blueprints (master and normal) and how they all work together. Which can be sold, copied, looted and/or traded. @NQ-Nyzaltar please :)

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12 minutes ago, Kurock said:

 

Just to clarify more: a snapshot is not a blueprint. It was mentioned by JC in the DM21 interview. The relevant transcript can be found here:

This is getting a bit ridiculous.

 

Maybe we should ask NQ for an article explaining their intent with snapshots and blueprints (master and normal) and how they all work together. Which can be sold, copied, looted and/or traded. @NQ-Nyzaltar please :)

Just add that request to the already looong list of "clarifications" that NQ have to provide on virtually everything in DU, lol

 

The terminology is a bit tricky in this case, the "personal snapshot" is not a "blueprint" per se, but it functions like one. However, as I specified, it cannot be used to make copies, etc. and won't be an inventory item AFAIK, which automatically means it cannot be traded. It's more like a "save point" in a single-player game.

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1 hour ago, dualism said:

If this is possible anywhere, then there is not much scope to have market price differences in far-away places, as people will just introduce them with no risk whenever there is a short-term imbalance of supply and demand somewhere. The ability to transport safely until a first trade merely increases the number of people who will have reserves and take minor market opportunities if they come across them before a bigger price difference begins to set in

And still, those DAC have to come from players living there, others may and will be shot on sight because orgs don't want foreigners on their turf. So occasionally a Trader might sell them something but the vast majority of DAC will be traded in the safezone => lower price => more profit If you ship them to the fringes of society. 

 

1 hour ago, CalenLoki said:

If DACs are lootable, I'll simply keep one of my three available chars near Ark, and trade/use/store them just there. After all i doesn't matter which of my chars use it to extend my subscription. Probably the prices will be best there too, due to competition.

And because it's so simple, thus a lot of people will do that, it'll mean DAC trading outside safe zones will be just nonexistent.

 

Emergent gameplay gain = 0

Additional nuance for players = 1

And that's not why DAC should be lootable, it's because of ppl hoarding it plus being able to sell them later anywhere for max profit. If there's a risk to trade them then it's used as what it's intended: paying your sub with quanta. If it's safe to have them on you anytime, anywhere then ppl will just buy low and hoard them until a high is reached

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8 minutes ago, Lethys said:

And that's not why DAC should be lootable, it's because of ppl hoarding it plus being able to sell them later anywhere for max profit.

 

DAC will certainly become a goto item to 'store' excess cash in game. I fully intend to use it as a savings mechanism (like I do in EVE with PLEX) and sell one or more off when needed. IF NQ were to allow full loot of your DAC stack even when it's not in your (local) inventory that would be bad. If there is no way for me to store DAC in a way it can't be accessed directly ingame (and thus not be looted by destroying a construct) that would be another bad design choice.

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10 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

DAC will certainly become a goto item to 'store' excess cash in game. I fully intend to use it as a savings mechanism (like I do in EVE with PLEX) and sell one or more off when needed. IF NQ were to allow full loot of your DAC stack even when it's not in your (local) inventory that would be bad. If there is no way for me to store DAC in a way it can't be accessed directly ingame (and thus not be looted by destroying a construct) that would be another bad design choice.

Imho it's best that you can hoard it..... In the safezone. If you want to make a huge amount of Profit in selling those far away then live with the consequences. Or, you know, be smart and use ingame mechanics like stealth, distractions and stuff.

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I do not need to travel to my bank to make payments or invest money, I can do so online. Why should I need to fly my money or bonds to a distant system in a space game? It would be silly and nonsense only intended to provide more pointless incentive for ganking and eeleet peeveepee. This game is not about that so I expect this will be handled properly by NQ.

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3 hours ago, Kurock said:

This is effectively the same as unlootable DACs with a twist that the DAC cannot be resold.

Yes, the effect is the same.  The way it is implemented and the reasoning for it are different.

If DAC are an in-game item, then there would need to be a reason why they could not be looted.    If they are not, then there is not a question whether they should be looted, since there is nothing to loot.  They never exist in a character's inventory, in a container or anywhere else in the game.

I still do not think it makes sense for a character to carry around a payment for the game they are in.  If there was a reason for them to be an in-game item, I agree they should be lootable.  I just do not see what that reason would be.

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Just now, blazemonger said:

I do not need to travel to my bank to make payments or invest money, I can do so online. Why should I need to fly my money or bonds to a distant system in a space game? It would be silly and nonsense only intended to provide more pointless incentive for ganking and eeleet peeveepee. This game is not about that so I expect this will be handled properly by NQ.

And you don't need to get your goods you buy from asia yoursel so where's your point.

It's just to prevent ppl from crashing the markets too fast, too often. Like we've Seen in eve so often. I could do that in eve with 50 plex in the old days, guess what happens when ppl with a substantial amount decide to drop them

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5 minutes ago, Lethys said:

And you don't need to get your goods you buy from asia yoursel so where's your point.

It's just to prevent ppl from crashing the markets too fast, too often. Like we've Seen in eve so often. I could do that in eve with 50 plex in the old days, guess what happens when ppl with a substantial amount decide to drop them

Why is "crashing the market" a problem ?

 

It's only a problem for the DAC hoarders, for the rest of the playerbase it's Xmas with low-price DAC in abundance ! :D

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9 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

Why is "crashing the market" a problem ?

 

It's only a problem for the DAC hoarders, for the rest of the playerbase it's Xmas with low-price DAC in abundance ! :D

The DAC hoarder is the only one profiting....?

 

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11 minutes ago, Lethys said:

The DAC hoarder is the only one profiting....?

 

To "crash the market", someone has to flood it with low-price DAC. I'd be happy to buy cut-rate DAC anytime... :D

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11 minutes ago, Lethys said:

The DAC hoarder is the only one profiting....?

 

Actually everyone who buys them is profiting.  The people that are hurt are the other dac hoarders that have to sell dacs at the lower price.  This is basic market economics, and I don't think is a problem.

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13 minutes ago, Lethys said:

That's why Eve ppls were raging then. Because it's np. 

 

I don't mind, i like the "mimimi" posts on a forum xD

Oh, I have no doubt that the EVE PLEX hoarders cried long and loud when caught with their pants down in those bouts of market-PVP, lol

 

It must hurt to see several billion ISK wiped off the value of your PLEX portfolio overnight !

 

But I'd be interested to see why the consumers of PLEX (ordinary peons like me) would rage about a sudden massive drop in the cost of PLEX...

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2 hours ago, CalenLoki said:

If DACs are lootable, I'll simply keep one of my three available chars near Ark, and trade/use/store them just there.

Ok, I certainly feel fairly beaten by the logic of that one - high five to you bro!

 

However, it looks like people are making mistakes with the arrow of their logic as well today, a bit like driving a racing car around the track backwards or something: great vehicle, and going in the right direction... and yet something is still wrong! ;)

 

If a place doesn't like strangers and kills people on sight then it won't be a marketplace - and the people killed will probably land right where what they wanted is available anyway...

Making a massive profit from crashing a market also seems to be a strange outcome unless we get really wonderfully bad market instruments like in the real world ;) ... but that has already been mentioned.

 

As the discussion stands I can't really see what is actually prevented by having DACs lootable - and there is a clear case for having some safety associated with them too. Maybe that is what NQ figured too before a fuss was made by the announcement.

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3 hours ago, NanoDot said:

Oh, I have no doubt that the EVE PLEX hoarders cried long and loud when caught with their pants down in those bouts of market-PVP, lol

 

It must hurt to see several billion ISK wiped off the value of your PLEX portfolio overnight !

 

But I'd be interested to see why the consumers of PLEX (ordinary peons like me) would rage about a sudden massive drop in the cost of PLEX...

Only one plex hoarder cried because He sold way under price to me (spaistuff ftw). The rest of the whole marketplace (mostly carebears, pve players and Mission runners) cried Out because suddenly all of their daily needed stuff (Ammo, drones, ice, PLEX) had their pricetag increased by 200-400%. But that's fine, it's np. Only needed 6months to stabilize the Market again. That's ok, I Had my fun

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4 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Only one plex hoarder cried because He sold way under price to me (spaistuff ftw). The rest of the whole marketplace (mostly carebears, pve players and Mission runners) cried Out because suddenly all of their daily needed stuff (Ammo, drones, ice, PLEX) had their pricetag increased by 200-400%. But that's fine, it's np. Only needed 6months to stability the Market again. That's ok, I Had my fun

That is indeed interesting.

 

So if the PLEX market "crashes" in EVE, all player-made items suddenly jump 200-400% in price ?

 

I've no clue why that would be the case, but given that DU's economy will be closely modeled on EVE, we can expect the same to happen in DU.

 

Except that in DU's case, the money supply is capped by NQ, so this effect is likely to be amplified. I wonder if NQ have considered this ?

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