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CalenLoki

Possible exploits and ways to prevent them

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19 hours ago, Hades said:

Hmm, I suppose it’s just opinion... but I don’t think a territory unit should protect all your resources.  If you don’t have alterior protections in place (turrets, shields, barriers, etc)... an enemy should be able to dig those resources out.  Making the territory units limited in depth would alleviate the concern of arbitrarily protected resources.  I wouldn’t consider that broken whatsoever.

 

Just because you have a base protecting your territory unit, doesn’t mean your resources below should be arbitrarily protected as well.  From digging/mining of course, everyone knows you can use explosives and weaponry no matter what, unless you’re in a safezone.

I agree with you Hades... "but in time".

 

To begin with DU will predominantly be a builder's game. That's just reliant on the fundamental tech that had to be built first to allow building (heh!).

 

I am anticipating our new old (heh!) EVE dev will help lead the way towards the vision I agree with you about above... "but in time" because it will take time (heh!) to manifest. First matter, then manifestation from that matter (heh!). Sorry! :D

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3 hours ago, CalenLoki said:

TCU is not a safe zone. It's mainly to protect from night raids and to force attackers to use actual weapons, rather than nanoformer.

And in this thread only one way to use TCU is called exploit - placing it deep underground.

It's to note that a TCU doesn't prevent or protect you from raids, all it does is setting RDMS and preventing digging.

 

3 hours ago, Aaron Cain said:

And then i guess you didnt even read this yet:

 

https://devblog.dualthegame.com/2015/07/24/territory-control/

One last very important point about territory tiles is the notion of “arkification”. Arkification is the process by which you could turn your territory into a non-PvP area, similar to the safe area around the Arkship. Arkified tiles would be incredibly powerful areas, as they cannot be hacked, conquered, destroyed or tampered with in any way. No need to say, this notion is a very sensitive gameplay aspect, and we have not yet decided precisely how and if it can be integrated in the game. Alternatives to it is simply to say that you can hide your stuff deep underground on a remote planet, or within the heavily guarded castle of your powerful organization. But these ideas are not totally safe.

Ark tokens are an old idea but iirc they have axed that idea again. 

 

A player can't create a safezone, there's a Post from nyzaltar somewhere. 

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what if as they are adding in a skill tree to build underground you had to spend time reserching underground particular things energy sorce ventilation underground crops artifidial gravity to hold the cave from collapsing and the like.

 

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That would be a good idea, but then you also need training for "on the ground" building since you need constructs to not collapse there too, and also energy and water can be a problem with no training, So it would be good if any training is necessary for all constructs, or maybe a system like the creativerse system where you need to be able to craft something in order to craft the next. But both systems will limit the speed of the game, on the other hand, is that a problem? It would mean you really are specialized, If this system would work like this for everything, mining, need to mine this before that, etc

 

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Research/leveling is only initial cost, which once achieved can be used forever. So it's not balancing anything.

And it's unnecessary hindrance. If someone plays smart enough to get all the rare resources to craft something, he should be able to do it.

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Well placing the TU underground is a game mechanic so then lets stop discussing it as an exploit  and focus on real exploits.

 

So as it is a game mechanic that is actually on the news page And in development notes of Dual Universe, please remove the underground item of the exploit list. Common sense can never be an exploit, and if its is there is something broken ingame.

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On 04/04/2018 at 2:27 PM, unown006 said:

what if as they are adding in a skill tree to build underground you had to spend time reserching underground particular things energy sorce ventilation underground crops artificial gravity to hold the cave from collapsing and the like.

 

 i cant see anywhere that artificial gravity would be used to stop a tunnel collapsing, even in an asteriod.  tunnel reinforcements always stop a tunnel collapsing in. Extra gravity would make things worse.

 

As there is no gravity in game for voxels (u can remove an entire support structure of a mountain and the mountain will float) any form of in tunnel gravity device also beomes redundant.

 

One learned skill i would back however is a depth skill. I.e the higher the skill the deeper one can dig.  ;)

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On 04/04/2018 at 10:11 AM, Aaron Cain said:

Well placing the TU underground is a game mechanic so then lets stop discussing it as an exploit  and focus on real exploits.

 

So as it is a game mechanic that is actually on the news page And in development notes of Dual Universe, please remove the underground item of the exploit list. Common sense can never be an exploit, and if its is there is something broken ingame.

You liked Falstaf post that explain what "exploit" means, without reading it? Using game mechanics (and other things) in a way not intended by game creators.

If underground TU creates basically invulnerable base, it'll be against NQ intention (they don't want anything outside safe-zones to be completely safe). So it's an exploit.

If there is no game mechanic that prevent that, then indeed something is broken in game.

 

If you have something useful to add to discussion, please share. Repeating "it's not exploit because it can be done" is like closing eyes and pretending to be invisible.

 

What other exploits? 

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For some reason you keep using this passive aggressive way when the discussion is not going your way. A discussion should be more open minded but in this post that's lacking.

I hoped to find an argument other then, "if you do it like that people cannot conquer it and i dont like that" But it comes back to that point every time.

 

Been there, seen it before, not gone fall for it. Good luck with your post. 

 

Greetz Aaron

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I'm going passive aggressive way when someone repeat the same thing over and over, without any new argument.

On 30/03/2018 at 11:31 AM, Aaron Cain said:

And now some offical NQ texts to show it is not an exploit:

"A Territory Control Unit is the physical asset through which a player or organization can claim ownership of a tile. TCUs can be placed anywhere within a neutral territory, even underground; they just have to be within the boundaries of the territory (see above for territory boundaries). The creator of the TCU can then share its rights (to dig or build[1]) with anyone they choose, notably those in control of the territories around them, if they don't own those territories already. This centralization aspect is intended to encourage the growth of nation-states where a central defensible capital can be established to maintain control over several tiles at once. At this time, not much is known about the TU asset itself, other than it will be fairly expensive and difficult to construct, with some of the resources necessary available only outside of the Arkship's safe-zone."

 

It's wiki, not anything official. And even if it describes current state of the game, it works against the principle of "things outside safe-zone shouldn't be totally safe".

On 30/03/2018 at 11:36 AM, Aaron Cain said:

https://devblog.dualthegame.com/2015/07/24/territory-control/

One last very important point about territory tiles is the notion of “arkification”. Arkification is the process by which you could turn your territory into a non-PvP area, similar to the safe area around the Arkship. Arkified tiles would be incredibly powerful areas, as they cannot be hacked, conquered, destroyed or tampered with in any way. No need to say, this notion is a very sensitive gameplay aspect, and we have not yet decided precisely how and if it can be integrated in the game. Alternatives to it is simply to say that you can hide your stuff deep underground on a remote planet, or within the heavily guarded castle of your powerful organization. But these ideas are not totally safe.

As Lethys said, outdated article. Arkification is no longer a thing. And even there they stated that other options "are not totally safe".

 

 

How is "remove that discussion because I think it's intended feature" open-minded? Way closer to censorship.

 

You stated your opinion once, on the first page. And got simple answer that I disagree with it, and why I disagree. Then you brought inaccurate data - everyone makes mistakes. Repeating it doesn't bring anything to the discussion.

 

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On 4/4/2018 at 9:11 AM, Aaron Cain said:

Well placing the TU underground is a game mechanic so then lets stop discussing it as an exploit  and focus on real exploits

We don't even know if they can be placed underground, as NQ might not want them to be *exploited* for near invincible bases.

2 hours ago, Aaron Cain said:

I hoped to find an argument other then, "if you do it like that people cannot conquer it and i dont like that" But it comes back to that point every time.

You did find one, you just ignored it as it didn't suit you. Multiple people have said here that NQ doesn't want totally safe places outside of designated MSAs and other pre placed safe areas, like around the arkship. As an example, this was said in the post you must have read before posting yourself:

3 hours ago, CalenLoki said:

If underground TU creates basically invulnerable base, it'll be against NQ intention (they don't want anything outside safe-zones to be completely safe)

You then ignored that and made up your own version of what people were saying, and pretended as if that's their opinion by using quotation marks.

 

2 hours ago, Aaron Cain said:

Been there, seen it before, not gone fall for it. Good luck with your post. 

You then went on to, instead of logically continuing a debate, pretend you had 'won' the debate and say you are leaving. I can assure you that's not how to win a debate.

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Also:

3 hours ago, CalenLoki said:

If underground TU creates basically invulnerable base, it'll be against NQ intention

That "If" is quite important little thing. I explained why that is IMO most probable, according to available data and experience from other games. I may be wrong.

But I'm pretty sure about NQ intentions regarding invulnerability.

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On the subject of underground bastions:

 

People are talking like taking the bunker directly by force is the only option. I don't know if any of you have read 'the art of war' by sun tzu, but in that he talks about weak points and strong points and how it is best to simply avoid the enemy if you don't have the resources to be able to defeat them. The ultimate goal in war is to defeat your enemy with as little fighting as possible. You shouldn't even engage in war in the first place if the odds are against you.

 

Other than direct means of engaging in battle,  you can use many ways to take out a base:

  • Traitors/ spies disabling certain functions/ misdirecting the command/ sowing political dissent
  • Severing the base's means of acquiring provisions from the outside; cutting off resource supply or trade routes. Not all of the enemy's operations can be underground. There will be mining operations on the surface as well as civilian traffic.
  • Employ a "the boy who cried wolf strategy"; feigning an attack on the enemy and suddenly disengaging to waste their ammunition/ supplies, forcing them to establish a pattern where they ignore certain aspects of the characteristics of assault in your feigning behaviours, only meeting such assaults with little or no force. Then you take them by surprise by beginning an attack characteristic of a decoy then following up with full force (i.e. stick a strike team on your 'dummy ballistics' trojan horse style). They either waste all their ammo or take chances. The downside is you too have to take chances on your full attack. Nevertheless this strategy is bound to cause dissent/paranoia in the enemy's command as to decision making.
  • As previously mentioned trojan horse style. Infiltrate enemy supply/ reinforcement trains with a strike team and then mobilise them when inside.
  • Bargaining. Take something they hold dear or offer them something they desire in return for the base.
  • Don't attack it at all. If given the opportunity, just go around it and kill something else. Wait for an opportunity elsewhere to damage your enemy. Cut the head off the snake so his fangs are rendered useless
  • Use a combination of all of the above

These are just general tactics you could use. In a real situation the enemy is unique and has their own strengths and weakness/ disposition you can use to your advantage. There are also strategies the enemy can employ to counter you, but I won't go into that. The point is, in war, the smarter, more flexible guy wins

 

"Water shapes its course according to the nature of the ground over which it flows; the soldier works out his victory in relation to the foe whom he is facing" - Sun Tzu

 

The thing is NQ want us to compete with one another in innovative ways. They want us to take control on how we choose to fight only giving small nudges when the going gets stale. Before claiming certain strategies in game are exploits; wait to see how they play out first. If they become meta, NQ will take appropriate action.

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19 hours ago, CoreVamore said:

 i cant see anywhere that artificial gravity would be used to stop a tunnel collapsing, even in an asteriod.  tunnel reinforcements always stop a tunnel collapsing in. Extra gravity would make things worse.

 

As there is no gravity in game for voxels (u can remove an entire support structure of a mountain and the mountain will float) any form of in tunnel gravity device also beomes redundant.

 

One learned skill i would back however is a depth skill. I.e the higher the skill the deeper one can dig.  ;)

The gravity generator was just a example any kind of reanforcement can be used also the gravity generators would do somthing like push the tunnel to prevent calasping and edit the natral gravity feild balancing it out in your tunnel mine shaft ect

 

On 4/4/2018 at 12:50 AM, CalenLoki said:

Research/leveling is only initial cost, which once achieved can be used forever. So it's not balancing anything.

And it's unnecessary hindrance. If someone plays smart enough to get all the rare resources to craft something, he should be able to do it.

I would argue it would balance things as it would prevent players from spamming "deep" underground structures and would reqire a reserch specalist for the task

 

8 hours ago, Veld said:

On the subject of underground bastions:

 

People are talking like taking the bunker directly by force is the only option. I don't know if any of you have read 'the art of war' by sun tzu, but in that he talks about weak points and strong points and how it is best to simply avoid the enemy if you don't have the resources to be able to defeat them. The ultimate goal in war is to defeat your enemy with as little fighting as possible. You shouldn't even engage in war in the first place if the odds are against you.

 

Other than direct means of engaging in battle,  you can use many ways to take out a base:

  • Traitors/ spies disabling certain functions/ misdirecting the command/ sowing political dissent
  • Severing the base's means of acquiring provisions from the outside; cutting off resource supply or trade routes. Not all of the enemy's operations can be underground. There will be mining operations on the surface as well as civilian traffic.
  • Employ a "the boy who cried wolf strategy"; feigning an attack on the enemy and suddenly disengaging to waste their ammunition/ supplies, forcing them to establish a pattern where they ignore certain aspects of the characteristics of assault in your feigning behaviours, only meeting such assaults with little or no force. Then you take them by surprise by beginning an attack characteristic of a decoy then following up with full force (i.e. stick a strike team on your 'dummy ballistics' trojan horse style). They either waste all their ammo or take chances. The downside is you too have to take chances on your full attack. Nevertheless this strategy is bound to cause dissent/paranoia in the enemy's command as to decision making.
  • As previously mentioned trojan horse style. Infiltrate enemy supply/ reinforcement trains with a strike team and then mobilise them when inside.
  • Bargaining. Take something they hold dear or offer them something they desire in return for the base.
  • Don't attack it at all. If given the opportunity, just go around it and kill something else. Wait for an opportunity elsewhere to damage your enemy. Cut the head off the snake so his fangs are rendered useless
  • Use a combination of all of the above

These are just general tactics you could use. In a real situation the enemy is unique and has their own strengths and weakness/ disposition you can use to your advantage. There are also strategies the enemy can employ to counter you, but I won't go into that. The point is, in war, the smarter, more flexible guy wins

 

"Water shapes its course according to the nature of the ground over which it flows; the soldier works out his victory in relation to the foe whom he is facing" - Sun Tzu

 

The thing is NQ want us to compete with one another in innovative ways. They want us to take control on how we choose to fight only giving small nudges when the going gets stale. Before claiming certain strategies in game are exploits; wait to see how they play out first. If they become meta, NQ will take appropriate action.

I agree there are many ways to take down empires and goverments

 

13 hours ago, Evil_Porcupine said:

We don't even know if they can be placed underground, as NQ might not want them to be *exploited* for near invincible bases.

You did find one, you just ignored it as it didn't suit you. Multiple people have said here that NQ doesn't want totally safe places outside of designated MSAs and other pre placed safe areas, like around the arkship. As an example, this was said in the post you must have read before posting yourself:

You then ignored that and made up your own version of what people were saying, and pretended as if that's their opinion by using quotation marks.

 

You then went on to, instead of logically continuing a debate, pretend you had 'won' the debate and say you are leaving. I can assure you that's not how to win a debate.

I like this

 

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21 minutes ago, unown006 said:

The gravity generator was just a example any kind of reanforcement can be used also the gravity generators would do somthing like push the tunnel to prevent calasping and edit the natral gravity feild balancing it out in your tunnel mine shaft ect

 

 

Or have the enemy just cut the power to your base burying it, you, and your colleges deep under ground..... I'll stick to old fashioned structural supports thanks ;)

 

 

(Yea, I know, I'm a bastard lol )

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1 hour ago, CoreVamore said:

Or have the enemy just cut the power to your base burying it, you, and your colleges deep under ground..... I'll stick to old fashioned structural supports thanks ;)

 

 

(Yea, I know, I'm a bastard lol )

geothermal power plus I assume they would have more than one deffence for a structural callopes

 

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1 hour ago, unown006 said:

geothermal power plus I assume they would have more than one deffence for a structural callopes

 

Geothermal can still be taken out.... its just another way to boil water..... but bottom line is that tunnels dont collapse in DU as there is no gravity for voxels. So all of this becomes a mute point anyway.

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7 minutes ago, CoreVamore said:

Naahhh.... we are in space suits remember?  :D

But...but isnt we need some oxygen in space suit  to keep breathing ? When it run out, it will be a problem  :wacko:

 

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