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i am still fan of inplant the Entropia universe skill system 

that you only get skills for what you are doing that way you can control new weapon how long people needs to play year  100 years if you like to get up to a sniper laser or find the good stuff in the ground = skill not tranings days/offline but work to get there.. 

its the best system i can come up with there is better then eve online..

 

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57 minutes ago, Noblehouse said:

i am still fan of inplant the Entropia universe skill system 

that you only get skills for what you are doing that way you can control new weapon how long people needs to play year  100 years if you like to get up to a sniper laser or find the good stuff in the ground = skill not tranings days/offline but work to get there.. 

its the best system i can come up with there is better then eve online..

 

depends what you define as better. The EVE system is fairer to those with less time than one in which you have to grind the skills up

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My dislike for "improve-by-use" skill systems in MMO's stems from the fact that it inevitably leads to AFK botting, especially in PVP games, where people fear "falling behind" other players who have more play time than them. before you know it, everyone's botting in an attempt to either stay ahead or to catch up.

 

EVE and DU's planned time-based training means you can play the game without having to spend hours repetitively grinding skills so that you can be "viable" in PVP.

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I agree, I like the Eve system of skills, you can also train all your skills offline, so you don't have to be online in order to train up your skills. I prefer a skill system similar to the one in Eve than the one Noblehouse proposed.

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Problem is in Eve there is bots too

miner bots  npc bots  transport bots mission runners

the other way you can keep put new weapon in to the game an you can never get maxet out in all weapon like eve i know i got 266 mil skill point in eve i can fly everyting i can use everyting  an maxet weapon defense skills.. 

 

i tell you the otherway is way better you can make some skills time base for shure an some skills  from skills how long you use them lets say BPC if you use it often for 1 year  vs one who use the BPC 6 month   you get better skill less ME/TE 

Problem in EVE all got same ME/TE an people cant sell there stuff with profit often becouse of this problem.. 

thats why i say  sometings needs to be like this is way better..

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5 minutes ago, Noblehouse said:

Problem is in Eve there is bots too

miner bots  npc bots  transport bots mission runners

the other way you can keep put new weapon in to the game an you can never get maxet out in all weapon like eve i know i got 266 mil skill point in eve i can fly everyting i can use everyting  an maxet weapon defense skills.. 

 

i tell you the otherway is way better you can make some skills time base for shure an some skills  from skills how long you use them lets say BPC if you use it often for 1 year  vs one who use the BPC 6 month   you get better skill less ME/TE 

Problem in EVE all got same ME/TE an people cant sell there stuff with profit often becouse of this problem.. 

thats why i say  sometings needs to be like this is way better..

well those bots are illegal.

and EVE has NPCs....that's nothing noteworthy.

 

your suggestion leads to even MORE bots and MORE afk people running against walls to increase their sprintspeed.

 

The proposed skill system is fine, if they juice it up a little with some more synergies or choices - all the better. But please no no-brainer-afk-bot skill system - that's just bad

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That and I despise some of the idiotic behaviors that "use-based skill systems" create.

 

Jumping and running literally everywhere to increase athletics. Yeah who really literally jumps up and down when going from place to place, that breaks the heck outta immersion.

 

Building a hyper-fuel efficient minimalist slow as heck ship so that you can maximize your flight time to increase piloting skill and... not actually fly anywhere for any purpose to grind your skill. That's just silly.

 

Digging random holes to boost mining skill. way to ensure every inch of every planet is ugly

 

Oh and don't get me started on crafting. In skyrim, having to grind iron daggers and dwarven bows nonstop to improve smithing was ridiculous. I don't want to be making nothing but steel doors and bonsai trees to improve manufacturing, or making tons and tons of concrete to improve refining.

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very well i Surrender to Reisen

Eve did make the system skil injek whare people can take out skill an sell it to other players 

they neeeded to do it becouse no new player did wonna come an play the game if they have to trian 10 years to get in bet with the old players or in to fleets whare they have to trian  1 year just to get in to a ship with the needed skill  to be in the doctrin fleet.. .. 

i know i got  12 years playing non stop of eve  240 mil skill point 

its a big problem for new players 

conciter this in few years..

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5 hours ago, Noblehouse said:

very well i Surrender to Reisen

Eve did make the system skil injek whare people can take out skill an sell it to other players 

they neeeded to do it becouse no new player did wonna come an play the game if they have to trian 10 years to get in bet with the old players or in to fleets whare they have to trian  1 year just to get in to a ship with the needed skill  to be in the doctrin fleet.. .. 

i know i got  12 years playing non stop of eve  240 mil skill point 

its a big problem for new players 

conciter this in few years..

 

No they need not to do this. Skill Injectors made EVERYTHING worse, now eve is plain P2W.

 

To me it's the people who start eve and then complain that others have far more advanced skills - THAT is the problem.

If people would only think about it for some time, they'd realize that it just doesn't matter at all how many SP you have - it only depends on your attitude and your player skills.

Yes ship doctrines need time to skill, but there are plenty of noob-fleets with low entry skills so that's not the problem.

 

The real problem with such a system are only people who think that they can't possibly play this game because they will always lose against some other guy with more skills. It's those people who start whining "mimimimi I always die because I have no skills and noone wants me in his org because I'm a noob with 0 skills" who kill a game (because they force the devs to do a bad move - see Skill injectors).

If people would be smarter they'd realize that it's all about specialization - noone needs the 5000th member with all ship and weapon skills on 5 when your org has a lack of logistics or traders. If you specialize as a new player on a field you're interested in then you're FAR more worth for any org. Will you be as good (skill wise) as a 5 year old char? probably not - but if you're smart and invent new techniques for scanning for ore for example - you're WAY better than a 10 year old char

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6 hours ago, Lethys said:

If people would be smarter they'd realize that it's all about specialization - noone needs the 5000th member with all ship and weapon skills on 5 when your org has a lack of logistics or traders. If you specialize as a new player on a field you're interested in then you're FAR more worth for any org. Will you be as good (skill wise) as a 5 year old char? probably not - but if you're smart and invent new techniques for scanning for ore for example - you're WAY better than a 10 year old char

Its also not just about specialization here, its about coordination.

 

So what if 1 guy has the metrics to beat you 1 on 1 consistently (and yeah, MMO's revolve around metrics. Sometimes math just crushes you) with no chance for you to survive a direct confrontation. Avoid direct confrontation, and don't go 1 on 1 lol.

 

With a game that conceptually revolves around teamwork, turns out the math will favor more players over a single over-powered character/ship. This becomes abundantly clear in other sandbox games (Rust, and Especially in Starmade and Space Engineers). A capital ship with triple the mass, armor, and weapons basically always loses to 2 identical ships even though from a metrics perspective, the capital ship has the advantage (and that is *not* factoring in specialization here). If you have a pair of specialized ships (like a tackle-ship and a destroyer, or a scan-down ship and a missile-spammer), that capital ship is getting murdered.

 

Specialization though will be immensely important. Even an org with fewer players will be better off if they are able to cover every-base skill-wise for their org's profession.  

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i agreee an still dont becouse i understand a player who need to train  3 years an 8 month for a Capital dose wonna  stay around that long if they are 12 years behind..

i will say if we come to the same problem as eve got loseing member becouse it takes to long time later on to get to a nevue whare you can be together with other 

then you have to look at the problem ...

EVE there is no dupe this problem is coming with this  system 

 

an there is another problem is the money sink ig later on peopel farm to much an dont spend the same amount ..

they have one big mistake in eve insure ships do only do this in low lvl toons 

 learn from eve .. 

i still Say BPC  me10 /te 20 needs to be so you cant max it out an sell same bpc its bad for marked its bad for makeing isk for what you are making.. 

thats better if you have a system for that if you make  5000 vs 10000 of a ship its get better skills in your bpc vs one who  only make  100 

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I have like 330k skills in Entropia and that took over 10 years to develop and not to mention a hell of alot of real money spending (if you know EU), i hope the skill system in Dual Universe (DU..lol) rewards players for the time they spend skill gaining, and with no class restrictions or caps you can skill what you like (like EU). skill implants are used in entropia because its an RCE universe whereas DU is not RCE (Real Cash Economy), DU is more like EVE even though ive never played EVE. There are players out there that love to explore and skill, a player named Dan Petrov did nothing in entropia except just skill, skill , skill and he has probably the most valuable avatar in EU. In DU i hope its similar (without RCE ofc) where people who skill and do it smart get far in this game and just the avatar can become a valuable commodity for any organization. Just my 2pecs (lol) on this subject :) 

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45 minutes ago, wizardoftrash said:

Its also not just about specialization here, its about coordination.

 

So what if 1 guy has the metrics to beat you 1 on 1 consistently (and yeah, MMO's revolve around metrics. Sometimes math just crushes you) with no chance for you to survive a direct confrontation. Avoid direct confrontation, and don't go 1 on 1 lol.

 

With a game that conceptually revolves around teamwork, turns out the math will favor more players over a single over-powered character/ship. This becomes abundantly clear in other sandbox games (Rust, and Especially in Starmade and Space Engineers). A capital ship with triple the mass, armor, and weapons basically always loses to 2 identical ships even though from a metrics perspective, the capital ship has the advantage (and that is *not* factoring in specialization here). If you have a pair of specialized ships (like a tackle-ship and a destroyer, or a scan-down ship and a missile-spammer), that capital ship is getting murdered.

 

Specialization though will be immensely important. Even an org with fewer players will be better off if they are able to cover every-base skill-wise for their org's profession.  

yeah one of the big failur in Eve is Frigets an destroyers are more powerfull then battleships  they can fly so fast you cant hit them  so vs a capital you almost have no chance as cap pilot  this is thing i belive needs to be adree.... becouse its only fair if you have someting very big very exspensiv you also have  good chance to defend the ship ageins  a fleet of frigs or destroyers .  i dont know how many times i have been force to jump out to save pilots becouse 1 single ship to 5-20 mil isk can take out a ships to  14 Billions ship.. just by killing there drones an the ship is so fast they drones cant get the player.. 

its Ballance we are talking aboudt.. 

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17 minutes ago, Agis_McKracken said:

I have like 330k skills in Entropia and that took over 10 years to develop and not to mention a hell of alot of real money spending (if you know EU), i hope the skill system in Dual Universe (DU..lol) rewards players for the time they spend skill gaining, and with no class restrictions or caps you can skill what you like (like EU). skill implants are used in entropia because its an RCE universe whereas DU is not RCE (Real Cash Economy), DU is more like EVE even though ive never played EVE. There are players out there that love to explore and skill, a player named Dan Petrov did nothing in entropia except just skill, skill , skill and he has probably the most valuable avatar in EU. In DU i hope its similar (without RCE ofc) where people who skill and do it smart get far in this game and just the avatar can become a valuable commodity for any organization. Just my 2pecs (lol) on this subject :) 

i know from my self i got a 20000$ toon x 2 focus skills ..  i have played for long time just say what needs to be fixet there is a problem in eve...

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Eve != DU and you're confusing a lot too.

 

There is literally only one faucet in DU, unlike eve. So it should be self explanatory that in eve you need more sinks. Frigs are cancer, true but then again a battleship isn't designed to fight frigs. Just like in DU you should always be able to counter other doctrines. That's not entirely a balance issue but also a problem for people because they're stupid. And think "Hey my ship is t2 and worth 5484 billion, I should be able to kill that frig"

 

And again, skilling by doing just caters no lifers who play 24/7 and bots. For everyone else it gets worse and is just no fun at all. Besides the fact that it doesn't change anything - after 5 years of DU, no lifers will have a bazillion skills while a noob starts low - so no, that's notwhy an argument. Only a strawman

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1 hour ago, Lethys said:

Eve != DU and you're confusing a lot too.

 

There is literally only one faucet in DU, unlike eve. So it should be self explanatory that in eve you need more sinks. Frigs are cancer, true but then again a battleship isn't designed to fight frigs. Just like in DU you should always be able to counter other doctrines. That's not entirely a balance issue but also a problem for people because they're stupid. And think "Hey my ship is t2 and worth 5484 billion, I should be able to kill that frig"

 

And again, skilling by doing just caters no lifers who play 24/7 and bots. For everyone else it gets worse and is just no fun at all. Besides the fact that it doesn't change anything - after 5 years of DU, no lifers will have a bazillion skills while a noob starts low - so no, that's notwhy an argument. Only a strawman

I wasn't trying to refer to Eve there, more using Starmade and Space Engineers as examples because there are no pre-defined ship classes, and no real difference in what classes of weapon you can fit to them.

 

Starmade has no ship classes whatsoever, only ones loosely outlined based on block-count and mass, and there are well defined combat roles, but it is entirely modular so there are no real cuts as to when a fighter starts to become a bomber, or when a shield-tank starts to become a support ship. In Starmade especially, most things scale linearly, but some have diminishing returns at high counts, meaning the bigger your ship is, the less efficient per-block or per mass it is. A 1mil block ship will 9 times out of 10 get STOMPED by 2 500k block ships in part because of diminishing returns. It has nothing to do with price (since block count = block count here), its a simple matter of those blocks being more efficient across 2 ships than on 1. This is made possible but not dependant on having a 2nd player since starmade has an extensive AI mechanic for entire fleets. An AI ship is sometimes straight-up more effective than a manned ship at aiming.

 

Since DU won't have anything like that, then simply having a 2nd player would be what grants you that kind of advantage.

 

In Space Engineers on the other-hand, there are effectively 2 classes of ship because there are 2 classes of ship-grid: Small and Large. The strangeness is that you can build a fairly small ship out of a large grid, but you can build a really huge ship out of a small grid. The trick is that small grids are the most efficient way to build small ships because of how little mass and resources the "minimum systems" take to build on that grid, but that large grids become instantly more efficient than any small ship that takes roughly the same footprint, just with way less redundancy with systems. For example, I could build a "Frigate" with both grid sizes (small and large), the large frigate would be more efficient, as each battery, generator, thruster, gyroscope, weapon, etc would be giving me much more output for its mass. The small-grid frigate however would be much more resilient to system-based damage because destroying 1 reactor doesn't totally cut power, it only *reduces* power. That being said, once you pass a certain ship size, large grid is the only way to go (because you'll be way more efficient, have more hp worth of mass, and still have some redundancy).

 

Even with the way Space Engineer's ships work though, there is still only 3 kinds of ship-based weapon, 1 of which is a stationary warhead that is only viable for ships that literally are missiles, or for sabotage. There are only 2 ways that the remaining 2 weapons can be mounted (hull-mounted single direction, and turret mounted with auto-targetting). Again though, if you have a 1million block ship, up against 2 500k block ships, the 2 ships will again always totally stomp the 1-million block ship because of the way weapon systems have to be mounted, and because of the loss of maneuvering associated with being high-mass. If half of your weapons systems are turret-mounted, odds are that only 2/3rds of them are firing at any given time if your target is smaller than you, this is because of simple angle-based firing restrictions on the turrets (unless 100% of your turrets are mounted on one face of your ship in a sloped-shape, in which case all they have to do is orbit you faster than you can turn, and you cannot fight back). Turrets cannot track objects moving at near-max speed, which is terribly easy to do in Space Engineers, meaning most of those shots will miss unless the target is changing direction (in which case they still might miss because the turrets are trying to anticipate movement). Hull-mounted weapons will only hit if you are physically facing the target, and you are aiming those manually (no lock-on, and the game tracks projectiles so no hitscan either). They are notoriously difficult to aim at long distances, and you will only be able to shoot at 1 target at a time. If the 2 500k ships are even half-awake, they attack in a tight formation (so that the automated turrets are splitting fire), and will have a combined firepower that is more than double the 1mill block ship due to the difference in size for turret-mounted weapons. Add that to the fact that the 1mill ship can only aim their hull mounted-weapon at 1 of the 2 attacking ships, and that those ships will have roughly double the maneuvering power vs whatever the turning factor is on the 1mil ship and you have yourself one huge flaming derilect and 2 slightly damaged battleships.

 

These 2 games heavily favor fanning-out resources across multiple constructs. If skill/level is a limiting factor for equipment, then the more skilled player will need to mitigate being outnumbered to have any advantage whatsoever. Moreover, an under-skilled player just needs to team up with a couple of buddies to do just fine against 1 uber-player.

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Just now, Lethys said:

@wizardoftrashwizardoftrash

It was more meant towards agis and noblehouse :)

I recognized as much, but I wanted to make it clear to them as well that I wasn't referring to EVE.

 

EVE is honestly a terrible reference point for DU because it has really only 3 points of similarity, and far too many differences. From what we know subscriptions are similar, training skills will be similar, and its a sci-fi game.

 

The rest of this game is wildly different from eve. The economy will not only function differently, it will be based on a very different gameplay backbone and production pipeline. Combat (when its implemented) will be wildly different, as there is simply no way a sandbox game can have the same level of complexity and variation in terms of actual guns and equipment, but might have far more variation in combat scenarios and contributing factors (the things that actually matter will be way way different).

 

The only reasons I can bring up Space Engineers and Starmade as indicators on what things might look like in DU is because SE and Starmade both have very limited actual equipment options for pvp in terms of weapons, but a tremendous amount of variation in terms of actual ship design and how those components are selected and lain out.

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The way I see it, Dual Universe is a game that requires real life skills such as Lua programming, or even battle strategies. A skill tree/system is fine, as long as it doesn't allow players to easily do tasks that they shouldn't be able to do. For example, say a player is good with space combat involving a large fleet of ships. Now, this person most likely is able to multitask with controlling multiple ships and quick thinking within a situation. If the skill tree allowed a certain path that simplified techniques in battle, or even suggested plans of attack/defense, there would be no need for human skill. I personally enjoy skill trees, and I think it would be a nice component to Dual Universe as long as it is done correctly.

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On 9/20/2017 at 6:01 AM, Noblehouse said:

i am still fan of inplant the Entropia universe skill system 

that you only get skills for what you are doing that way you can control new weapon how long people needs to play year  100 years if you like to get up to a sniper laser or find the good stuff in the ground = skill not tranings days/offline but work to get there.. 

its the best system i can come up with there is better then eve online..

 

EVE is life. Praise Bob

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