GalloInfligo

I am against having Loot able DACs in game. for the following reasons.
 
1)  It is assumed that once you use it to add to your game time, its a timer, so if you know you are going to be off line for an extended time, you should have the ability to buy them when they are cheap, and hold onto them for when you need to use them.
2)  It is not IMHO emergent game play to loot these, as they have no real game world purpose so why should a character even want them?  Resources on the other hand, yes a character would desire that.
3)  This whole market crashing BS can still be done safely using the safe zones or other methods as described by GrandMasterApex.
4)  If Credits are non loot able, which has a real presence in the game, why should DACs not also be safe?  It is more emergent game play to demand the ability to loot credits.
5)  IMHO it is a better plan to resolve these complaints of hoarding, by making these items only able to be sold or traded ONCE.  This solves almost all of the legitimate complaints against keeping them non-loot able, but also lets players hold in game purchased ones till they need to use them safely.  This will also stop scams and griefing people buy luring them out to remote PVP areas with extremely low prices, to only be pounced on after they are purchased.
 
I also think it is ridiculous to be taking so much of the community's time and NQ's time discussing this now when the release of the game is 2 years out.  I would much rather have the NQ team focusing on building a great stable Alpha, and construct vs. construct combat, you know the important EMERGENT game play.
 
 Also I thought since most of the PRO loot able arguments were coming from EVE players and supporting how great it works in eve I would share the following link.
 
https://community.ev...ges-on-the-way/
 
In particular this part of it.  "The PLEX Vault will allow you to move PLEX safely throughout the universe rather than having to move it in a ship."
 
So i personally consider all "this is how it works in EVE " ETC. arguments invalid since it no longer is the way EVE works.  Also I would like to add that if it was working so well why did CCP change it and should we also then consider the why and the route they went.

I am against having Loot able DACs in game. for the following reasons.
 
1)  It is assumed that once you use it to add to your game time, its a timer, so if you know you are going to be off line for an extended time, you should have the ability to buy them when they are cheap, and hold onto them for when you need to use them.
2)  It is not IMHO emergent game play to loot these, as they have no real game world purpose so why should a character even want them?  Resources on the other hand, yes a character would desire that.
3)  This whole market crashing BS can still be done safely using the safe zones or other methods as described by GrandMasterApex.
4)  If Credits are non loot able, which has a real presence in the game, why should DACs not also be safe?  It is more emergent game play to demand the ability to loot credits.
5)  IMHO it is a better plan to resolve these complaints of hoarding, by making these items only able to be sold or traded ONCE.  This solves almost all of the legitimate complaints against keeping them non-loot able, but also lets players hold in game purchased ones till they need to use them safely.  This will also stop scams and griefing people buy luring them out to remote PVP areas with extremely low prices, to only be pounced on after they are purchased.
 
I also think it is ridiculous to be taking so much of the community's time and NQ's time discussing this now when the release of the game is 2 years out.  I would much rather have the NQ team focusing on building a great stable Alpha, and construct vs. construct combat, you know the important EMERGENT game play.
 
 Also I thought since most of the PRO loot able arguments were coming from EVE players and supporting how great it works in eve I would share the following link.
 
https://community.ev...ges-on-the-way/
 
In particular this part of it.  "The PLEX Vault will allow you to move PLEX safely throughout the universe rather than having to move it in a ship."
 
So i personally consider all "this is how it works in EVE " ETC. arguments invalid since it no longer is the way EVE works.  Also I would like to add that if it was working so well why did CCP change it and should we also then consider the why and the route they went.

I am against having Loot able DACs in game. for the following reasons.
 
1)  It is assumed that once you use it to add to your game time, its a timer, so if you know you are going to be off line for an extended time, you should have the ability to buy them when they are cheap, and hold onto them for when you need to use them.
2)  It is not IMHO emergent game play to loot these, as they have no real game world purpose so why should a character even want them?  Resources on the other hand, yes a character would desire that.
3)  This whole market crashing BS can still be done safely using the safe zones or other methods as described by GrandMasterApex.
4)  If Credits are non loot able, which has a real presence in the game, why should DACs not also be safe?  It is more emergent game play to demand the ability to loot credits.
5)  IMHO it is a better plan to resolve these complaints of hoarding, by making these items only able to be sold or traded ONCE.  This solves almost all of the legitimate complaints against keeping them non-loot able, but also lets players hold in game purchased ones till they need to use them safely.  This will also stop scams and griefing people buy luring them out to remote PVP areas with extremely low prices, to only be pounced on after they are purchased.
 
I also think it is ridiculous to be taking so much of the community's time and NQ's time discussing this now when the release of the game is 2 years out.  I would much rather have the NQ team focusing on building a great stable Alpha, and construct vs. construct combat, you know the important EMERGENT game play.
 
 Also I thought since most of the PRO loot able arguments were coming from EVE players and supporting how great it works in eve I would share the following link.
 
https://community.ev...ges-on-the-way/
 
In particular this part of it.  "The PLEX Vault will allow you to move PLEX safely throughout the universe rather than having to move it in a ship."
 
So i personally consider all "this is how it works in EVE " ETC. arguments invalid since it no longer is the way EVE works.  Also I would like to add that if it was working so well why did CCP change it and should we also then consider the why and the route they went.

I am against having Loot able DACs in game. for the following reasons.
 
1)  It is assumed that once you use it to add to your game time, its a timer, so if you know you are going to be off line for an extended time, you should have the ability to buy them when they are cheap, and hold onto them for when you need to use them.
2)  It is not IMHO emergent game play to loot these, as they have no real game world purpose so why should a character even want them?  Resources on the other hand, yes a character would desire that.
3)  This whole market crashing BS can still be done safely using the safe zones or other methods as described by GrandMasterApex.
4)  If Credits are non loot able, which has a real presence in the game, why should DACs not also be safe?  It is more emergent game play to demand the ability to loot credits.
5)  IMHO it is a better plan to resolve these complaints of hoarding, by making these items only able to be sold or traded ONCE.  This solves almost all of the legitimate complaints against keeping them non-loot able, but also lets players hold in game purchased ones till they need to use them safely.  This will also stop scams and griefing people buy luring them out to remote PVP areas with extremely low prices, to only be pounced on after they are purchased.
 
I also think it is ridiculous to be taking so much of the community's time and NQ's time discussing this now when the release of the game is 2 years out.  I would much rather have the NQ team focusing on building a great stable Alpha, and construct vs. construct combat, you know the important EMERGENT game play.
 
 Also I thought since most of the PRO loot able arguments were coming from EVE players and supporting how great it works in eve I would share the following link.
 
https://community.ev...ges-on-the-way/
 
In particular this part of it.  "The PLEX Vault will allow you to move PLEX safely throughout the universe rather than having to move it in a ship."
 
So i personally consider all "this is how it works in EVE " ETC. arguments invalid since it no longer is the way EVE works.  Also I would like to add that if it was working so well why did CCP change it and should we also then consider the why and the route they went.

I think to put things into a form of context for everyone, to my knowledge at least; this is what has been proposed.
 
100 DACs go onto the market, in a close enough proximity for me to be able to go around and buy from various markets. As there are many sellers, there is a price war and the price is very reasonable in terms of resources or credits.
 
Scenario 1:- the players who need the DACs need to do minimum farming to afford this DAC and once they have enough they buy and redeem the DAC, adding to their gameplay time. As the Dac was not redeemed by the buyer it couldn't be looted so his RL money was safe, and as the player who bought it redeemed it straight away it could not be looted from him either so he was safe.The DACs are lootable but only if the player who bought them for in-game currency does not redeem it when he buys it, which he did so his game time was never in danger.  No problems there, chicken dinner for all. 
 
Scenario 2:- I buy 80 of those DACs and keep them. There is now a market shortage, a friend of mine buys any others we find going on the market and after a week we possess 80% of the games DACs that have been on sale that week. Now we sell those DACs on at 1000% of what we bought them for. As there are currently no other DACs for this week to buy, the players who need them have no choice but to buy them. The price is now ridiculous and players have to spend most of their in-game time grinding just to play. No one can steal these DACs off of me that I am not going to use, as my friend and I have lifetime subs from Kickstarter. Moreover, seeing how much DACs are now selling for, the buyers who pay RL money for the DACs inflate their prices in in-game currency to match mine so DACs how now permanently increased 1000% in 1 week. Clearly, a huge problem that players are wanting to avoid and quite rightly so. As such once I buy those DACs in-game for in game money it is proposed that if I do not redeem them, then they can be stolen from me to try and prevent this from happening.
 
Scenario 3:- the player who bought the DAC is far away from the DAC seller, and has asked for it to be transported to him. Payment was in terms of in-game currency that is not lootable as it is not physical. Now to send the DAC via 3rd party it must be redeemed to be transported, or at least made physical. This now presents a large problem for everyone, as what is to stop me from selling a DAC, and having my friend steal it mid transitt, returning it to me and splitting the profits? you may suggest that the DAC is not lootable until it reaches the buyer? But now we can return to scenario 2, where I have my friend collect my DAC's for me and hold them until we have buyers at our inflated prices, keeping them protected and un-lootable, as we would meet in the safe zone for me to collect, redeem and re-sell, and then even tip off a pirate org to steal them from my friend for a set price for the info and split that as well. I feel this scenario is open to huge abuse and needs to be looked at. Of course, you should really always try and collect your DAC from the seller, but what happens later game, when you are too far away to do this.  
 
Personally, I think that as many game mechanics are still undecided, unconfirmed and subject to change, we cannot really bring a clear answer to the solutions to this. This game is not like any other game we have ever played, and really is still a bit of a mystery to us all. Although I do agree that this debate is clearly relevant and needs to be addressed by both sides for several reasons. I do think it is foolish to rush to conclusions on what should and shouldn't be implemented until we know for certain how this game is going to play. It is unfair to ask the devs to put in this kind of time and effort which will put their roadmap and important features on hold when it may be that what we are asking for doesn't fit into the games mechanics or is not needed because of such mechanics. I think really, this debate is better nearer to the game's release when we know what the deal is.

I don't see the problem. We don't even have an alpha yet, and the players that are hopping on now, supporting the kickstarter, and frequently using the forums are likely going to be the pillars of the playerbase, or their org will fade to obscurity most players won't choose their org by wading through the community page, they will either be recruited by a friend, or blind-recruited through pm's or in the game. Its the kind of predictable thing that will solve itself

Wall of text +1  ")  But yes I hate racism, bigotry etc. as well, and will not tolerate it.  not signing this though, I didn't read it all the way through

Are you that special kind of stupid or do you think trying to insult people will win your argument when it was pointed out to you exactly where your argument failed?
 
Let me make it more clear for you since you are obviously an idiot.
 
Players can hoard DACs with no danger under your precious option C, and still crash the market!
 
So Your argument is what?  Exactly a BS excuse to try and loot them from the dumb players, or possibly scam them, since you are obviously a bully and a troll.  
 
this will be my last post on this matter, as you obviously don't care about other views, and fail to see the error in your own logic. 

Wall of text +1  ")  But yes I hate racism, bigotry etc. as well, and will not tolerate it.  not signing this though, I didn't read it all the way through

are you gonna keep making polls until you get desired result, agreeing with your opinion ?

Also, a great deal of these market manipulation aruments are under the assumption that players with DAC will simply try to play the market with them, or will trade DAC for in-game currency as a middle man to get some other service with in-game currency.
 
Anyone that works in business understands that since each trader is attempting to profit, the more steps involved in trading for your material, the less profitable it will be unless you intend to travel (which will be risky as soon as the DAC's will be offloaded in a DAC unlootable economy).
 
The smartest players will create contracts to trade DAC's for either finished goods, refined materials, or whatever service they actually want. Players that need subscriptions to keep playing will produce what is needed to fulfill the contract, and the DAC's will be in and out of the system free of price manipulation. Orgs do this internally to keep their lower rank players playing in their org: a highschooler spending 3 hours mining iron for a DAC is a fantastic deal for them, since they get another month to do whatever. Someone who works full time trading a DAC for 3 hours of in game work that they don't enjoy is a steal, since they make more at their job than that DAC is worth.
 
The only people who should be actually worried about unlooyable DAC's are people who want the satesfaction of literally robbing players. Be it a roleplay choice not to work for an org, or because the player just wants another way to be a jerk on the internet, that is what it boils down to.

I said before, that I would agree with "Lootable DAC after 1 hour after the trade between players". Your example forced to change my mind. Choice A as before.
 
To stop "Resell" DAC must be bindable after the 1st trade. So if the player (buyer for game cash) gets DAC from another player (buyer for $$$), he has no option to sell it one more time. So as result DAC is what it need to be ONLY! Not lootable, not resellable.
 
Thanks,
Archonious

the problem with this is, Player X buys the DAC from NQ, and puts it on the market to make in game credits.  Player Y buys it off the market and can use it to add a month of game time to their account.
 
The problem with allowing it to be looted is, if you force them to make it an object, then they have to travel to the market to retrieve it.  where they could possibly be attacked as soon as they do so, therefore loosing their month of game time.  There will be players that try to sucker in players to their area to do this exact thing.
Also, what if Player Y wants to hold onto it, cause he bought it so cheap (under market value) and has 3 weeks of game time left on his current account.  Now he has to worry about losing the DAC if he holds onto it till his time is up (maybe he is in the Military, and is about to go on a 6 month deployment, so it would be a waste to use it NOW)
 
No one is going to go buy a DAC from NQ to then use for game time, when its cheaper to have a subscription.  

Here is the error in your argument.  you are assuming that I cannot horde them safely to perform this market crash plan.  I can do this exact plan now in game even if the DAC are loot able.  So therefore there is another reason for you to want them to be loot able.
 
So now that we have cleared up the fact that your entire argument relies on scare tactics and fantasy, care to tell us why you really want them as loot able?

Wall of text +1  ")  But yes I hate racism, bigotry etc. as well, and will not tolerate it.  not signing this though, I didn't read it all the way through

Here is the error in your argument.  you are assuming that I cannot horde them safely to perform this market crash plan.  I can do this exact plan now in game even if the DAC are loot able.  So therefore there is another reason for you to want them to be loot able.
 
So now that we have cleared up the fact that your entire argument relies on scare tactics and fantasy, care to tell us why you really want them as loot able?

I thought we were discussing ideas presented in the poll, not what was already planned.
 
I don't like B.  C is not a compromise at all.  So A is what I would choose from the options provided.  However since we're throwing ideas around, I'd rather they be safe until a person actually decides to spend them - willingly. And I'm sure a fair amount of folks will do just that.  I am confident that there will be plenty of loot available for everyone to steal. 
 
Unless of course, it's the real money some people really want?  See, I don't think this thread is about the game economy at all.  I think it's about talking people into thinking it's OK to steal people's real money.  And I don't care how anyone wants to spin it, I am against it.
 
And I really don't care what your nefarious future goals to doom the economy are either.  If you want to sit around and horde DACs to cash them in all at one time and crash the economy, then that's your prerogative, I suppose.  But I doubt you will be able to destroy the game faster than the negative media the game gets from people getting their money stolen will though.  
 
Now I'll let you guys continue to sort out what is theft, how a DAC really works and all that.  My peace has been said.  But while you're doing that, some evil MF is hoping that you do talk the devs into them being all lootable all the time so that he can get his black market plans set up and ready to go by the time Alpha launches. 

That's a good point! Let's see what the devs will decide in the upcoming video... kinda curious to see how things will be handled.

the problem with this is, Player X buys the DAC from NQ, and puts it on the market to make in game credits.  Player Y buys it off the market and can use it to add a month of game time to their account.
 
The problem with allowing it to be looted is, if you force them to make it an object, then they have to travel to the market to retrieve it.  where they could possibly be attacked as soon as they do so, therefore loosing their month of game time.  There will be players that try to sucker in players to their area to do this exact thing.
Also, what if Player Y wants to hold onto it, cause he bought it so cheap (under market value) and has 3 weeks of game time left on his current account.  Now he has to worry about losing the DAC if he holds onto it till his time is up (maybe he is in the Military, and is about to go on a 6 month deployment, so it would be a waste to use it NOW)
 
No one is going to go buy a DAC from NQ to then use for game time, when its cheaper to have a subscription.  

Considering all the flashy signatures in forums like these, I really didn't really expect any praise for my fairly generic 3 word attempt. Cheers fam Nice to know there are other W40K fans around. 

Hunter I am glad you were one of the members to not be attacked.  I have however seen it time and again.  I look at defending the non loot able DAC system the same way the majority of us have defended the Pay to Play method in all of the Free to Play posts.  Nobody wants to hear it, nobody cares about that persons views.  I get it, NQ laid down the law on what pay method they are using and we get tired of hearing it.  This is the 2nd thread already dealing with DAC's being non loot able.
 
The DACs are not emergent, that is my point in saying wanting emergent gameplay to loot them is meaningless.  They are there for 2 very good reason.  They let the broke players continue to play, and they put a serious hurting on the Chinese gold farming spam sites. we all know, you either have DAC's or Gold farmers, spaming us all the time.
 
If you can't loot my credits, why should you be able to loot my DACs?  Credits are digital so hey that at least makes game play sense.....well so are DACs!

Im tired of hearing about emergent gameplay concerning DACs, if you want emergent gameplay, how do you justify DACs existance in the game world? Its a real thing to sell,trade that gives you game time to play. Your emergent play should only care about real game items that you use. All of your arguments to promote the stealing of someone elses game play time are completely ridiculous.
 
I honestly hope they do not go to this play style, and if you guys drop over i wish ypu well in eve where you can do this.
 
I am sick of seeing this community attack the new members, and i am also sick of you all thinking that your idea is the only way this game should work. Guess what, a lot of people dont want to steal a 12 year olds month of game play, and we think it should be protected from scum bags trying to steal it.

this, if true, will self correct when the game launches anyways.  I honestly don't worry about what other organizations are doing.  if they are doing crooked things, they will be found out eventually, and either way it doesn't effect me.

If this is not implemented in game than someone could easily do this outside of game on a web site.
 
I see both sides to this, and really don't know which i prefer. What if you are really good at those hands dirty jobs, you might not want just anyone to see your job history.

I'm against lootable DACs.  I DO believe the main reason they are in game is to give folks who can't afford to subscribe, a way to still be able to earn their game time. There really isn't a better reason to implement them.
 
Now don't get me wrong.  I"m not some "make it all safe candy land player".  I'm all for looting.  I'll take your resources, your ship, your house...whatever.  But I don't want to take real money from folks who can't afford to play in the first place.  How awful would that be if it happened to you?   Not only did you get ganked, now you cant even login to try to salvage some of what you lost in the first place! 
 
IMO, as long as a DAC is still a DAC it should not lootable.  As soon as it's cashed in and used to purchase something in the game, then THAT is what you loot; whatever they bought with it.  Otherwise, you WILL be stealing someone's game time.  And I just don't want people to be able to do that. 
 
I know a lot of folks take games so seriously that they want to only take game-play into account "for the success of the game" and all that.  But in the end, to me, it's just a game.  And I want everyone who wants to play it to be able to.  Makes it more fun for the rest of us.  If we allow some folks to steal other people's real money - no matter what kind of label you want to put on it -  it's only going to run folks off who would otherwise be playing the game.   It makes makes no sense and goes against the spirit of the type of gamers I like to play with. 
 
So, my vote is to just wait until someone cashes one in and then steal what they bought, if you must.  Otherwise, let players keep their RL money...sheesh!