Kurock
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Posts posted by Kurock
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So much life in the forums today, and yet so much anger too.
I still stand by my statement that 1) items themselves shouldn't be tag locked, only the containers and 2) having a "washing" element that just takes items and cleans them over time would not be very fun. I would much rather there be thinking involved.
And remember what JC said: stealing items may be as simple as right click -> steal
No anger, just disappointment.
I kind of agree with point 1 but for 2 I never defined exactly *how* it would work, just a broad idea on *what* it could be. It could be no more boring than hacking e.g. Using a mini game.
After an item is stolen, does the thief automatically get full use of it? That seems highly abusable. When (if ever) does it lose its "stolen" status? Would people be happy if a stolen item remains stolen but is still useable/sellable with exception of some items that can be locked down e.g. Containers, doors, ships etc. (These would need to be hacked to gain access). So now that cleaners are out of the picture, an item can only lose its stolen status when returned to its rightful owner.
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Player job boards.
Because why not stay on topic?
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Which Empire would this be? There are four pages of Empires in the community site, so being a little more specific would be great.
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Please play nice so we can discuss ideas without resorting to belittling. The backsliding into old ways are entirely unnecessary.You guys think so small, it's impressive at times. You think "lolzies, I'll go pirate, pew pew, lol, and have five to six items and clean them and sell them, loluziels". People who want to make mad banks on piracy, will just eject you out of any market, by griefing mindlessly, looting, sending the loot back with a hauler, then having their multiboxing cleaner alts run cycles.
Fun fun, amirite? Hauling alts are already an issue, but let's just throw in more incentive for people to have more alts, right?
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I didn't actually specify any actual gameplay but I did make a suggestion on how to get around a locked down RDMS.
What this discussion has made clear is that a cleaner, while it would be an interesting hacker job, is not the answer to the RDMS lockdown, which was the point of this thread.
Does anyone else have any thoughts on the cleaners?
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Master Blueprints (aka original blueprints) being lootable or not is also not part of this discussion (though JC did say they would be not be lootable, though again anything can change.)
The Cleaner alt argument is pretty null and void since the same can be said for pretty much any set of skills. I have faith that NQ will make a system that is not tedious. Just because I certainly have not thought of all the minutae that could make for an interesting cleaner gameplay, does not mean its not possible. Perhaps a similar system to hacking could be used. Perhaps they are just specialized hackers that need to use a massive machine instead of being out in the field. Just as a miner does not have to be an industrialist, a pirate does not have to be a cleaner.
broker - a person who buys and sells goods or assets for others
fence - a person who deals in stolen goods
So I very much mean a fence. A fence buys and sells *stolen* goods. So I did mean "stolen" instead of "illegal" though usually the one does mean the other. Though I do agree "illegal" in DU is pretty subjective and pretty meaningless in this discussion.
And I would tone down the condescension a tad and explain difficult concepts like economics in a friendly and pleasant fashion involving many MMO references.
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You see the problem with that thinking, again, is that !00000 guns being cleaned one at a time or ten at a time, is a thing belonging to Free2Grind Korean MMO-trash that MMO Grinders would review for giggles.
Hence the all at once Cleaner. You can still do it one at a time if you really want to.
A player should have Tags on them, allowing them to use a gun inside a city or not. If they are not allowed to fire (or even have equipped) a gun inside a city, they are flagged as "Outlaws" for violating the RDMS in that regard. RDMS should work ONLY within confinements, like cities or containers.
Nope. The right on a gun is the right to use it anywhere. Else there is little point. Just leave the area and anyone can use it.
Suppressing attacking (or outlawing) inside an area is a completely different discussion.
Having an item being IMPOSSIBLE to sell or equip, because of RDMS-spacemagic, is outright an overkill. Having a container with 1000 guns in compacted kerr form via the nanopack technology, and haveing 100 said containers in a ship, then havign to manually doing the same process over and over again, is just GRIND, pure, unadulterated, tedious, GRIND.
The limitation is on *use*. Not selling. But since no one else can use it either, its market price is a bit on the non-existent side. Also I did mention that the cleaner cleans them all, so no grind. Imagine ship sized cleaners wiping the entire ship clean in one go.
And you still miss the point. If in a battlefield, you can't resupply from a fallen enemy, that means the system is broken. Having Soulbound Magic in a sci-fi game is ridiculous. It's a Rights & Duties Management System, not Runes & Destiny Miracle Sorcery. It's supposed to be a form of Law, not dark magic.
I agree that the current system must make sense. Something that could have a biometric scanner on it, should be RDMS lockable. This could include guns but not their ammunition for example.
RDMS should work within confinements. Having a container that has RDMS on it, means the items inside it follow the RDMS as long as they are INSIDE it or as long as the RDMS is in effect. You hack the container's system and RDMS unlock it, the items are yours. Having RDMS ina territory claim, means people who have tags on them can do certain things and anyone else is in violation and can be flagged Red for Outlaw.
Well I cannot use a gun while its still inside the nano-box, so that makes it pretty useless limitation. Territory permissions are actually a separate discussion completely.
Now explain how Leather Boots have RDMS on them. What? Did Lord British said the Lords of Muahaha decreed the Leather Boots be impossible to use unless you perform the Ritual of the Silly Bellydance to use them? Are Organisation Leaders grand wizards then and legates their apprentices? Is this game set in space or WoW's space, that has guns and magic? Cause I really wanna use RDMS magic to hack enemy players if Leather Boots can't be used because of SpaceMagic Soulboundedness.
This is unnecessary hyperbole to make a point. Does a usual pair of leather boots have a biometric scanner in them? Well the rocks do, so why not boots? I think items that cannot be explicitly used should just be marked as "stolen". There is a difference between wearing something and activating it (e.g. jetpack)
Just because the law says "that item doesn't belong to you" doesn't mean you can't be able to use, equip it or pick it up if you wanted. You'll be flagged an Outlaw for doing so and there could be a statistics on your Biography showing how many allicit activities you participated into, so people know how many times you looted RDMS items that you shouldn't be able to - that excludes Haulers, as they have access to haul a cargo via Contracts a form of RDMS. or items you gotten by looting other outlaws, so if they attack you and you win, you get their
booty scot free. And of course, War Decleratiosn WORK this way, as people can engage the "War Enemy" without being flagged as Outlaws for looting them.
That is just it. You can pick it up. You just can't use it. Equipping is a bit of a grey area since, in some cases it makes sense and others not. I think this is one of the areas that need to be ironed out. Not all items are created equal and so RDMS should not apply to all items.
But having Disenchanting is just broken on so many levels. Yes, it's Disenchanting. Use the term cleaning all you want, it's disenchanting and RDMS turned into a ten times worse version of the Soulbound mechanism from WoW and piracy has no meaning to get into, so enjoy a mindless griefing frenzy, cause nobody got time to haul loot back to someone else, then wait to sell it. Pirates are pirates cause they do the easy things, not the hard labour of hauling cargo to a disenchanter to make their items sellable. If your piracy has any other cost other than fuel and ammunition, then it's not a profitable enough field to get into.
Finally a counterargument.
You make disenchanting sound like a bad thing.
Call it what it is: Removing tags.Soulbound is again unnecessary hyperbole (though, to be fair, that is what the current unfinished RDMS system effectively is). The only soulbound items should be Quanta (that's the money in DU) and master blueprints. The rest can be hacked and cleaned.
As for pirates complaining about having to drop their goods off at a fence (that's a person that buys illegally obtained goods)... well they were going to do that anyway. The fence just happens to have to clean the goods before reselling. Complaining about that is a bit like miners complaining that they have to learn how to scan for resources as well as all those mining skills. It's not like this is a MMO with other players that will do those jobs you don't want to do. But wait. It is.
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Hacking is cheating and dose not need to be enforced by players.
Just to be clear, this is IRL hacking which is illegal IRL.
The feature known as "hacking" ingame will be allowed.
I know this may seem obvious to some, but you can never be sure about others.
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What's with this double posting, Twerk?
I think we should separate "usable items" (weapons and elements with a button that does something), and "components" (for example raw ores, ingots, materials etc). The components will just be marked as "stolen" but can still be thrown into a forge or used up. So while the cleaning could extend to these, it is less of an issue since the components can be used anyway.
So for this discussion we are looking at those usable items. e.g. Crates, guns, etc.
Usually a container will be filled with "components" aka unusable stuff. So no cleaning is required once you are inside the box. But what about containers filled with weapons. Each will necessarily need to be cleaned separately, just like each element in a ship will need to have its tags stripped.
So the one argument is that it would be tedious to do each item separately. But then there is another saying doing all of them at once would be boring. Which one is right? Why not both?
So here is the idea, how about a seperation between the hacker and the cleaner?
Hacking is for fast jobs on the spot. A finesse job. It is the scalpel. Ideal for getting specific jobs done. But could become very tedious if all tags need to be changed.
Cleaning is for bulk jobs. It requires large machinery to accomplish. It is a sledgehammer way of hacking: a powerful magnet wiping everything off the hard drive.
So put that container with 10000 items between the plates and commence wiping. It only wipes tags, it does not add new ones. That still needs to be done, but this assumes anyone can apply their tags to a tagless item.
Side Note: This is probably going to be really far removed from what is implemented in DU in the end and since we don't know everything that is planned, it would not be possible to come up with a meaningful solution, but its still fun using what we know and coming up with ideas (no matter how crazy).
Interesting discussion. Carry on.
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It has recently come to light that with RDMS players will be able to lock others out of using equipment and most likely elements. Without the correct rights, those items become unusable.
But this raises a concern from the pirates: "Oi matey! How do we use the stuff we work so hard to steal? Those skull and crossbones stickers won't pay for themselves."
My answer is: Sorry, stolen items cannot be used. At least not yet.
This is the idea: Loot laundering and the DU equivalent of a chop shop. A place for pirates to take their ill gotten gains and have it "cleaned". Have the tags removed and have the equipment/elements made ready to receive new tags. But this should not be an instantaneous action. This is a process. A bit like hacking but with less finesse and it takes a bit longer and requires some machinery so that it cannot simply be done out in the field.
Perhaps a special element that strips away tags on the items/elements placed in it. Perhaps a specific player skill. Perhaps a combination of the two.
Discuss!
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That would be interesting, having a specific module that runs the weighing. Although since the stargate already is dealing with the ships mass, it may not need to "scan" the ship to determine its mass and therefore not need an additional module, at least lore-wise.
I would still advocate a separate scanning element since they are going to be in the game anyway in various forms. Also I don't see the stargate as a scanner itself, it just has 1 job: to open that magical space to take people to a distant space. I doubt it will actually care about the mass going through it. Also not all orgs will necessarily care to add the "scanner module" to the stargate.
But all that aside, as long as it's possible, I will be most pleased.
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This is a pretty good system, though I believe we, as players, should be given the building blocks to build a system like this ourselves. Then a system like this could be used for more than just stargates. And I don't think it will take much in the way of building blocks to accomplish. RDMS, a ship scanner and some LUA could conceivably be used to create the "Weighbridge of the Star(gate)s".
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It's great to see that this much thought has been put into these small but very important components of a user-driven game. Good job NQ; keep it up!
I would not classify this as a "small" feature. Definitely important though.
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- Can a true democracy exist when only legates can vote?
I can answer this at least, voting is a right (controlled by a tag) like any other and as such the legate can give each member in the org the right to vote. (Just don't ask me for a source for that right now.)
For the rest, I would be guessing.
Edit: Looks like only legates can vote but democracy can be had if everyone is a legate.
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To put what Sunrider is asking slightly differently:So, I suppose the role tag system will work with an item ownership tag system? Does it mean we will carry items that we don't own (for exemple iron, craft...) and can't be used?
if an item is tagged as belonging to a specific org, let's use a hunk of ore as an example, will it be possible for someone outside the org, be able to smelt that ore?
Can a hand-held weapon that belongs to an org be used by someone outside the org without any of that orgs rights?
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Alpha and Beta will not use DACs. This has been a public service announcement.
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Greetings
What first got you interested in Dual Universe?
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Thank you, Novaquark team, for yet another highly informative DevBlog.
One item that was not mentioned (or I missed it) is whether an action taken by an individual will be added to an audit log of some kind. Whether there will be functionality to enable such audit logs or script our own using LUA. Of course, this is probably better as an opt in feature, but still immeasurably useful.
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Good luck, commander. o7
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Maybe a short description about what ACS actually is might be helpful?
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Just to reiterate: JC has indicated that a ship will not move when no one is on board (and likely gain a protection bubble of some kind), so there will be no logging off and waiting a while to teleport across the galaxy. At least not solo. But this is an MMO, so with multiple people flying in shifts will keep the ship moving along with its precious cargo of lifepods.
The only issue I have with logging off on the ship without using an element (like a cryopod) are stowaways with malicious intent. I do think this would be interesting game play to allow for stowaways but not allowing cheesing of the log off mechanics. Perhaps logging off/reappearing on a ship could be tied to the RDMS of that ship. This would allow for stowaways (as long as they stay logged in) but it would not be practical for very long journeys.
While stasis-pods are more immersive, a system still necessarily must exist without them because the internet is not 100% reliable all of the time. Disconnects happen. Being lost in space without a ship due to a disconnect is a great way to lose players. Using RDMS may be a way to ensure that it is not abused.
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Welcome. Always glad to see more like-minded organizations.
Obscured Stretch Goal Guessing
in Off Topic Discussions
Posted
party poopa
It's still relevant because it is still coming, but only after release. So keep guessing.